Lack of Ball Group Counters

Decimus

So anyone who has played a lot of BGs has probably come across these groups in more than a few occasions.

It is my firm belief that these groups who just stack four people in close proximity and run around 4v1'ing people or ulti dumping are the worst thing in ESO's BG system, and the only reason for that is the lack of proper counters to them.

As it stands, the only counter to a ball group equipped with healbot(s) is to run one yourself, which leads to monotone gameplay when only one strategy is deemed viable.


There should either be more abilities that scale based on how many enemy players you hit (i.e. abilities similar to Prox Det) or more incentives for players to spread out a little bit in deathmatch BGs.


I'm sick and tired of playing against these *** when the rest of the PvP (when you actually get past queues) is actually very enjoyable right now.


Please note that this is not a post complaining about premades, as ball grouping often happens even with random teams - this post is about one strategy being always, in every single scenario no matter the opponents' group comp, more efficient than other strategies.

TriangularChicken

Nah nothing wrong with playing as a group, i've seen you couple of times in BGs, I'd suggest calling your NB "Stealthblade the Useless". Meditating in stealth for half the match is not how you win in high MMR BGs. If you get caught alone and in the wrong place it's your fault, not enemies lmao.

Decimus

TriangularChicken wrote: »

Nah nothing wrong with playing as a group, i've seen you couple of times in BGs, I'd suggest calling your NB "Stealthblade the Useless". Meditating in stealth for half the match is not how you win in high MMR BGs. If you get caught alone and in the wrong place it's your fault, not enemies lmao.

Here's the thing: you wouldn't be calling my NB (or other NBs) "useless" if it was a 1v1 (or even 1v2 tbh).


Certain classes in this game aren't made for ball group gameplay and there's nothing wrong with that - not everything needs to revolve around getting carried by other people and spamming AoEs. Sure, have that as a playstyle but it should also have its counters just like everything.

Sylosi

The problem isn't really people balling up, it is simply that BG are poorly designed.

Well designed team games split teams to some extent though objectives, so you still have team fights (or as this weird game calls them 'ball groups'), but not the whole team, because that will mean a loss. This not only makes the team fights a bit less cheesy because it isn't the entire team, but also adds variety because it opens up different types of roles and increases the skill cap through things like rotations, an extra layer of teamwork, etc.

Though granted in a game with 4v4v4 designing a map/mode that works well as in still has plenty of fights/people contesting objectives, rather than too much running round free capping might be difficult. Which is just one of the reasons why nearly every PvP team game goes with 2 teams, not 3.

TriangularChicken

Decimus wrote: »

TriangularChicken wrote: »

Nah nothing wrong with playing as a group, i've seen you couple of times in BGs, I'd suggest calling your NB "Stealthblade the Useless". Meditating in stealth for half the match is not how you win in high MMR BGs. If you get caught alone and in the wrong place it's your fault, not enemies lmao.

Here's the thing: you wouldn't be calling my NB (or other NBs) "useless" if it was a 1v1 (or even 1v2 tbh).


Certain classes in this game aren't made for ball group gameplay and there's nothing wrong with that - not everything needs to revolve around getting carried by other people and spamming AoEs. Sure, have that as a playstyle but it should also have its counters just like everything.

Problem is BGs are 4v4v4 not 12 solo NBs fighting each other...and even NBs can be useful in a group - with changes to Power Extraction, Mass Hysteria, Teleport Strike, etc. now more than ever. Heresya is playing a really good NB in BGs (when he actually plays them every 2-3 months xD) ... maybe go ask him for tips on how to be useful.

Decimus

Sylosi wrote: »

The problem isn't really people balling up, it is simply that BG are poorly designed.

Well designed team games split teams to some extent though objectives, so you still have team fights (or as this weird game calls them 'ball groups'), but not the whole team, because that will mean a loss. This not only makes the team fights a bit less cheesy because it isn't the entire team, but also adds variety because it opens up different types of roles and increases the skill cap through things like rotations.

Though granted in a game with 4v4v4 designing a map/mode that works well as in still has plenty of fights/people contesting objectives, rather than too much running round free capping might be difficult, again there is a reason why nearly every PvP team game does with 2 teams, not 3.

Agreed, that's why I wrote the following:

There should either be more abilities that scale based on how many enemy players you hit (i.e. abilities similar to Prox Det) or more incentives for players to spread out a little bit in deathmatch BGs.

There is no incentives for groups to spread out rather than just move in a ball of AoEs.

TriangularChicken wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

TriangularChicken wrote: »

Nah nothing wrong with playing as a group, i've seen you couple of times in BGs, I'd suggest calling your NB "Stealthblade the Useless". Meditating in stealth for half the match is not how you win in high MMR BGs. If you get caught alone and in the wrong place it's your fault, not enemies lmao.

Here's the thing: you wouldn't be calling my NB (or other NBs) "useless" if it was a 1v1 (or even 1v2 tbh).


Certain classes in this game aren't made for ball group gameplay and there's nothing wrong with that - not everything needs to revolve around getting carried by other people and spamming AoEs. Sure, have that as a playstyle but it should also have its counters just like everything.

Problem is BGs are 4v4v4 not 12 solo NBs fighting each other...and even NBs can be useful in a group - with changes to Power Extraction, Mass Hysteria, Teleport Strike, etc. now more than ever. Heresya is playing a really good NB in BGs (when he actually plays them every 2-3 months xD) ... maybe go ask him for tips on how to be useful.

Heresya plays a magicka NB, which has the luxury of dealing ranged damage and not having to walk into Northern Storms, spin2wins and Dawnbreakers in order to deal any damage.

A NB running power extraction, mass hysteria & teleport strike fits much closer to the description of "useless", as you're only going to be able to kill players when rolling around with your ball group.

Also, if you're given the chance between slotting spin2win (which I do run on mine, because it is also good as a 1v1 finisher) & Power Extraction, I don't think anyone in their right mind would run Power Extraction.


In any case, you're going to be inferior to Shalk spamming stamdens, DKs with their AoE DoTs and Leaps, Templars with their jabs, necros with their blastbones & colossus & stam sorcs with their hurricanes & best undodgeable/blockable AoE CCs in the game (theirs actually deals damage).

Stamblade simply isn't built for AoE brawling and will always be inferior in that - nothing wrong with that as long as you also have fights that aren't centered around spamming those AoEs, as NB has the most deadly (and unpredictable) single target burst in the game.

Not everyone needs to be equal in everything, that mentality has done the game enough harm already.


That said, high MMR BGs should be fun for every class, not just the AoE spamming ones.


Also, I think it's important to make the difference between regular XvX fight where people might be in the same general area but there's still room to engage on targets without being hit by 17 different PBAoEs, and a ball group where everyone stands within 1-8m of each other firmly staying inside friendly AoEs & LOS'ing using their team mates (not unlike a pet sorc hiding inside pet hit boxes).

Gravord

Main cause of the issue is the same as from ESO launch - overperforming aoe and ultimates. Any 2-3 low skill players can stack their dawnbreakers/tornados/subtearrean/whatever other overly strong aoe skills that doesnt require any player skills to use and they can decimate any opposition.

In proper pvp games, small scale fights, would require at least 2 dds to stack their single target abilities, with brutal and efficient assist, together with tank efforts to heavily debuff target and stun enemy team healer on the burst phase. ESO doesnt need it, no tactical or skillfull gameplay is required as long as you stack few dots and aoes, kill will be swift, guaranteed and with close to no effort.

Toning down aoe by at the minimum 30%, aoe dots 30% and overall nerf to ultimates (first and foremost ulti reset to 0 upon entering bg combined with dmg nerf - waaay too many unskilled players gameplay is solely based on surviving untill utlimate and only then attempting to make an easy kill with 2-3 button press kill) would bring smarter, higher skill level gameplay to bgs. It would create much more fun enviroment, where player skill and team tactical level profits team results, would increase amount and engagement of competitive teams and overall bring battlegrounds to better level.

Decimus

Just bringing this up again, because it is still a problem.

BGs right now on PC EU consist of nothing else than 4-man groups sticking together and clashing with other 4 man groups, which typically results in endless AoE fiesta where it's like rolling the dice on which sorc with Endless Fury gets the kill for their team when someone eventually drops low from someone else's burst.


That is, unless the other group doesn't stack their four players - in which case the 4-man ball group simply spends the entire BG 4v1'ing people while crosshealing each other with matriarchs, block+BoLs and other garbage just to make sure that one person getting zerged essentially has no chance of turning the table.


Fix. This.

Make BGs competitive rather than a RNG/Xv1 fiesta of tanks and healbots crosshealing each other.

• More counters vs teams stacking four people in close proximity with cross heals & AoEs.
• Weaker cross heals (especially twilight, which heals multiple targets for full value, unlike Templar BoL for example).
• More incentives to spread out in BGs rather than focus all the action on one single place.

ecru

Decimus wrote: »

Just bringing this up again, because it is still a problem.

BGs right now on PC EU consist of nothing else than 4-man groups sticking together and clashing with other 4 man groups, which typically results in endless AoE fiesta where it's like rolling the dice on which sorc with Endless Fury gets the kill for their team when someone eventually drops low from someone else's burst.


That is, unless the other group doesn't stack their four players - in which case the 4-man ball group simply spends the entire BG 4v1'ing people while crosshealing each other with matriarchs, block+BoLs and other garbage just to make sure that one person getting zerged essentially has no chance of turning the table.


Fix. This.

Make BGs competitive rather than a RNG/Xv1 fiesta of tanks and healbots crosshealing each other.

• More counters vs teams stacking four people in close proximity with cross heals & AoEs.
• Weaker cross heals (especially twilight, which heals multiple targets for full value, unlike Templar BoL for example).
• More incentives to spread out in BGs rather than focus all the action on one single place.

The only fix is to completely rework the entire system into a normal two team system like every other game has. Like another poster said above, well designed games don't have these problems. Rift didn't have these issues and it had 10% of the playerbase and 10% of the staff that ZOS has.

If there were two teams, and maps were large enough that objectives spread each individual team out, we wouldn't have scenarios where an entire team is required to stick to each other or otherwise risk getting instagibbed and losing the match.

There are other basic things that can be done like toning down aoe damage (which is obvious, but zos hasn't gotten the hint yet), and reducing cross healing which has happened to an extent, but not a large enough one. CC still needs to be toned down too, especially aoe cc, although it would be less of an issue if everyone wasn't grouped up in the same area for the entire duration of the match. No one likes being snared for the entire duration of most of the BGs they're in, but again, ZOS hasn't gotten the hint.

BGs were destined to fail from the start when they chose the 4v4v4 format and ZOS and the ESO playerbase will be paying the price until either the system is scrapped and a more traditional system is implemented, or the game is shut down. You can't fix a gaping wound by putting a bunch of little band-aids on it.

brandonv516

A two team system would not be any better.

-Two premades vs each other would just be a stalemate.
-One premade vs randoms would just be them staying in their base or quitting.

Bashev

brandonv516 wrote: »

A two team system would not be any better.

-Two premades vs each other would just be a stalemate.
-One premade vs randoms would just be them staying in their base or quitting.

This. 2 teams could work only on modes which are not deathmatch. But 90% of the players plays only deathmatch so no point to be 2 teams. Actually if ZoS make 4 teams could be better solution as it will reduce the healing as ppl will take more damage.

ecru

brandonv516 wrote: »

A two team system would not be any better.

-Two premades vs each other would just be a stalemate.
-One premade vs randoms would just be them staying in their base or quitting.

Every time someone makes a post like this I wonder if they've played any other mmo. I'm guessing it's mostly console players who have no experience in other games who think two teams would be exactly like three teams, because they assume that a two team system has to be identical to the current three team system, just with one less team, since their only experience with instanced mmo pvp is in ESO. The fact that this post got three likes as fast as it did says a whole lot about the playerbase in this game.

The way it works in other games is not the way things work in ESO. In other games, no single team (unless specifically in a ladder/ranked queue) is allowed to consist of an entire premade. The maximum group size to queue is always smaller than the maximum group size in the instanced match. For example in ESO this would mean the maximum group size would be 4 (as it is for dungeons and BGs now), and the two team system would be 8v8. This would mean that a single team could only be, at most, half premade. You could still queue with your friends, but you wouldn't be able to pug stomp with them. If you queued as a premade with a group of 4, you'd likely end up with 4 pugs on your team, and go up against a team of 8 with another premade of 4 plus their own set of 4 pugs. This is how it works in every other game.

ESO/ZOS is the outlier here with basically every choice they've made. ZOS has thrown out decades of experience where we all learned things like "don't let a whole team be a premade", "don't queue premades against pugs", and "the smaller the team size is, the easier a match is imbalanced by player skill differences/group composition advantages". These are very very basic things that other developers fully understand, and balance their instancing around.

Bashev wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

A two team system would not be any better.

-Two premades vs each other would just be a stalemate.
-One premade vs randoms would just be them staying in their base or quitting.

This. 2 teams could work only on modes which are not deathmatch. But 90% of the players plays only deathmatch so no point to be 2 teams. Actually if ZoS make 4 teams could be better solution as it will reduce the healing as ppl will take more damage.

See above. Another thing every other developer besides ZOS learned is that you don't queue up pugs for deathmatch pretty much ever. Kills need to count for something, and everyone likes to show off their scoreboard kdr epeen, but deathmatch in general is a very bad idea because it promotes the kind of gameplay the OP in this thread (and many other people) have an issue with. Deathmatch is for ladder/ranked with premades, and for people who queue specifically for it, not pugs. No person random queueing for instanced pvp should be thrown into a meatgrinder like that unless they specifically select a box that says "DEATHMATCH".

Objective based matches and maps designed around those objectives allow every sort of pvp scenario any pug could ever hope for, while allowing them to mostly avoid the aforementioned meatgrinder to a good extent. Objectives spread people out on a map and different types of objectives are better played by different roles leading to more role diversity in matches, so all of the issues that come with pure deathmatch rarely show up unless you have a badly designed map with something like one or two main objectives where everyone has to be all the time, and in that case, that's just bad map/objective design.

I'll never get tired of beating this horse, and I know that just about everyone who has pvp'd a good amount in other MMOs understands the issues with 4v4v4 just as I do. Hopefully at some point ZOS will also see the light, or maybe poach a WoW or Rift developer, lol.

BNOC

Bashev wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

A two team system would not be any better.

-Two premades vs each other would just be a stalemate.
-One premade vs randoms would just be them staying in their base or quitting.

This. 2 teams could work only on modes which are not deathmatch. But 90% of the players plays only deathmatch so no point to be 2 teams. Actually if ZoS make 4 teams could be better solution as it will reduce the healing as ppl will take more damage.

4 teams is the wrong direction, that would be horrendous on so many levels.

I will never understand why people question whether 2 teams would be better or worse.

- 2 like-for-like premades against each other in any game may end in a stalemate.
- 2 Premades vs 1 group of randoms isn't any different, it's easier to target the spawn trapped players for points than deal with that "stalemate" mentioned. It becomes a game of, who can get the execute on the noob or who can pick up the empty, unguarded relic/obj.

Teams play deathmatch most games because there is no incentive to winning games, quite literally none and even if there was, you're punished for taking fights instead of just running away.

If they fix matchmaking and also stop rewarding players for avoiding combat then the games will start to work even as they are.
In their current state, leaderboards only mean something to the players with the most time:

• These need to be based on a visible MMR/ELO rating
• There is no reason for some unemployed guy who play 200 games and comes bottom every time with 10k damage dealt to be top of the leaderboards, what a *** system.
• Remove the whack rewards and replace them with seasonal PvP rewards similar to WoW, that's a sure fire way to bring hordes in to BG's, populate the Q's and get the competitiveness back. Dragonhold Glatiator or whatever. Make a PvP mount and simply reskin it per season for top 5% or something. Incentivize good players.
• Figure out a way to either split, or fairly manage premade gains and solo losses when they meet.

Bashev

ecru wrote: »

I'll never get tired of beating this horse, and I know that just about everyone who has pvp'd a good amount in other MMOs understands the issues with 4v4v4 just as I do. Hopefully at some point ZOS will also see the light, or maybe poach a WoW or Rift developer, lol.

Oh boy... Dont you understand the combat in ESO is so different and it will not work? In WoW or Rift you have cooldowns in ESO you spam your skills as the CD are replaced with resource management. Once you reach a point where you have nice recovery with stats you outperform your opponents.

I ve played several 4vs4vs1 when the system was bugged. Do you know how it ended? Once we reach 250-10-0 points all we just stay afk and wait for the timers. After we wipe them 3-4 times they just dont come anymore and stay at the base. Every second match will be like this because in ESO it is not possible to make a nice matchmaking. Builds, skills and gear can change whenever you want so the system cannot predict what type do you play.

MurderMostFoul

I think the real problem is that healing from a dedicated healer in PvP vastly outpaces damage, to the extent that a single tanky healer can keep their entire team alive against a group of fairly competent damage dealers. Thus, players who have even the slightest sense of coordination know to stick near their healer, resulting in frequent ball groups, even with groups of randoms.

If Battle Spirit further toned down healing received from teammates, I think things would get a lot better.

Bashev

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

I think the real problem is that healing from a dedicated healer in PvP vastly outpaces damage, to the extent that a single tanky healer can keep their entire team alive against a group of fairly competent damage dealers. Thus, players who have even the slightest sense of coordination know to stick near their healer, resulting in frequent ball groups, even with groups of randoms.

If Battle Spirit further toned down healing received from teammates, I think things would get a lot better.

Also the targeting, if i am focused and dropping health i can block and roll dodge in my group. Good luck to target me again from range and if you are mele you are inside us where we will all focus you.

But as I said this is the game's combat.

Iskiab

Decimus wrote: »

TriangularChicken wrote: »

Nah nothing wrong with playing as a group, i've seen you couple of times in BGs, I'd suggest calling your NB "Stealthblade the Useless". Meditating in stealth for half the match is not how you win in high MMR BGs. If you get caught alone and in the wrong place it's your fault, not enemies lmao.

Here's the thing: you wouldn't be calling my NB (or other NBs) "useless" if it was a 1v1 (or even 1v2 tbh).


Certain classes in this game aren't made for ball group gameplay and there's nothing wrong with that - not everything needs to revolve around getting carried by other people and spamming AoEs. Sure, have that as a playstyle but it should also have its counters just like everything.

NB being weak in those settings is a large part a spec issue. There’s a magblade theorycrafting thread I made and posted some of the specs I tried using and a lot of magblades laughed at me. Most magblades have no clue how to spec for group play and just roll solo specs, if you do yea, expect to get rolled.

Granted I was a hybrid healer/dps but still. Just try adapting to the situation and you’ll be more successful. Magblades are/were a large part of ball group strategy, they’ve been replaced largely by magnecros but in a ball magblades should be doing well.

brandonv516 wrote: »

A two team system would not be any better.

-Two premades vs each other would just be a stalemate.
-One premade vs randoms would just be them staying in their base or quitting.

In fact it’s worse, a lot worse. I can’t be the only one who had BGs where an entire team dropped and it was 4x4 fighting at one team’s spawn when BGs busted. Only two teams was horrible.

Decimus

Iskiab wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

TriangularChicken wrote: »

Nah nothing wrong with playing as a group, i've seen you couple of times in BGs, I'd suggest calling your NB "Stealthblade the Useless". Meditating in stealth for half the match is not how you win in high MMR BGs. If you get caught alone and in the wrong place it's your fault, not enemies lmao.

Here's the thing: you wouldn't be calling my NB (or other NBs) "useless" if it was a 1v1 (or even 1v2 tbh).


Certain classes in this game aren't made for ball group gameplay and there's nothing wrong with that - not everything needs to revolve around getting carried by other people and spamming AoEs. Sure, have that as a playstyle but it should also have its counters just like everything.

NB being weak in those settings is a large part a spec issue. There’s a magblade theorycrafting thread I made and posted some of the specs I tried using and a lot of magblades laughed at me. Most magblades have no clue how to spec for group play and just roll solo specs, if you do yea, expect to get rolled.

Granted I was a hybrid healer/dps but still. Just try adapting to the situation and you’ll be more successful. Magblades are/were a large part of ball group strategy, they’ve been replaced largely by magnecros but in a ball magblades should be doing well.

Magblade is probably the only magicka/stamina spec I don't (/can't, alchemist infused pot cooldown glyph vitality+lingering argonian too expensive) play at the moment. Stamblade is what has been my "main" class since 2014.

Iskiab wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

A two team system would not be any better.

-Two premades vs each other would just be a stalemate.
-One premade vs randoms would just be them staying in their base or quitting.

In fact it’s worse, a lot worse. I can’t be the only one who had BGs where an entire team dropped and it was 4x4 fighting at one team’s spawn when BGs busted. Only two teams was horrible.

You're not. Happens atleast once a day to me where one or both enemy teams just quit or sit in their spawn until the end of the game.

I can sympathize with that, no one wants to jump down and get 4v1'd... I try to leave my team alone in such situations to make it more competitive and go solo vs the other team, but that can be... difficult, if the other team quit as well.


The irony is that there's a lot of people who frown upon Xv1'ing people in Cyrodiil, but are happy to do that in a BG (even if the game is already over with a score such as 0-0-300 or such and just a few minutes left in the game). Hypocrisy at its finest.

Iskiab

Decimus wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

TriangularChicken wrote: »

Nah nothing wrong with playing as a group, i've seen you couple of times in BGs, I'd suggest calling your NB "Stealthblade the Useless". Meditating in stealth for half the match is not how you win in high MMR BGs. If you get caught alone and in the wrong place it's your fault, not enemies lmao.

Here's the thing: you wouldn't be calling my NB (or other NBs) "useless" if it was a 1v1 (or even 1v2 tbh).


Certain classes in this game aren't made for ball group gameplay and there's nothing wrong with that - not everything needs to revolve around getting carried by other people and spamming AoEs. Sure, have that as a playstyle but it should also have its counters just like everything.

NB being weak in those settings is a large part a spec issue. There’s a magblade theorycrafting thread I made and posted some of the specs I tried using and a lot of magblades laughed at me. Most magblades have no clue how to spec for group play and just roll solo specs, if you do yea, expect to get rolled.

Granted I was a hybrid healer/dps but still. Just try adapting to the situation and you’ll be more successful. Magblades are/were a large part of ball group strategy, they’ve been replaced largely by magnecros but in a ball magblades should be doing well.

Magblade is probably the only magicka/stamina spec I don't (/can't, alchemist infused pot cooldown glyph vitality+lingering argonian too expensive) play at the moment. Stamblade is what has been my "main" class since 2014.

Iskiab wrote: »

brandonv516 wrote: »

A two team system would not be any better.

-Two premades vs each other would just be a stalemate.
-One premade vs randoms would just be them staying in their base or quitting.

In fact it’s worse, a lot worse. I can’t be the only one who had BGs where an entire team dropped and it was 4x4 fighting at one team’s spawn when BGs busted. Only two teams was horrible.

You're not. Happens atleast once a day to me where one or both enemy teams just quit or sit in their spawn until the end of the game.

I can sympathize with that, no one wants to jump down and get 4v1'd... I try to leave my team alone in such situations to make it more competitive and go solo vs the other team, but that can be... difficult, if the other team quit as well.


The irony is that there's a lot of people who frown upon Xv1'ing people in Cyrodiil, but are happy to do that in a BG (even if the game is already over with a score such as 0-0-300 or such and just a few minutes left in the game). Hypocrisy at its finest.

BGs are sorta fixed, you get replacements now so it hasn’t happened in a couple of days.

I do see it a lot where players play for 2nd, I hate that. First time a team wipes and I see people in chat say, ‘go for the the third place’. I hate that. I always try and go for the dominant team, people should want to attack them because if they’re doing something that works it’s best to figure it out and try to adapt.

There are probably lots of magblade builds that work in balls. CA is okay, it’s just with this harmony meta NBs seem to be falling behind a bit. You can still be the synergizer but not the one giving them besides orbs. The only real advantage is it’s easier to be tanky.

ecru

Bashev wrote: »

ecru wrote: »

I'll never get tired of beating this horse, and I know that just about everyone who has pvp'd a good amount in other MMOs understands the issues with 4v4v4 just as I do. Hopefully at some point ZOS will also see the light, or maybe poach a WoW or Rift developer, lol.

Oh boy... Dont you understand the combat in ESO is so different and it will not work? In WoW or Rift you have cooldowns in ESO you spam your skills as the CD are replaced with resource management. Once you reach a point where you have nice recovery with stats you outperform your opponents.

I ve played several 4vs4vs1 when the system was bugged. Do you know how it ended? Once we reach 250-10-0 points all we just stay afk and wait for the timers. After we wipe them 3-4 times they just dont come anymore and stay at the base. Every second match will be like this because in ESO it is not possible to make a nice matchmaking. Builds, skills and gear can change whenever you want so the system cannot predict what type do you play.

I can't ever understand these posts. There isn't anything different or unique about ESO pvp compared to every other game in existence that lends itself to a third team. ESO has a gcd (it's 1 second), and it has cooldowns (they're called ults). It's exactly the same, aside from some active off gcd forms of mitigation (block, roll dodge).

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

I think the real problem is that healing from a dedicated healer in PvP vastly outpaces damage, to the extent that a single tanky healer can keep their entire team alive against a group of fairly competent damage dealers. Thus, players who have even the slightest sense of coordination know to stick near their healer, resulting in frequent ball groups, even with groups of randoms.

If Battle Spirit further toned down healing received from teammates, I think things would get a lot better.

This is another "feature" of small teams. One healer can imbalance a 4vs4 much more than one healer can imbalance an 8v8. It's why you don't see small scale pvp matches in the form of deathmatch for random pugs in other games unless you specifically queue for them. ESO is again the outlier here.

Juhasow

Crossheals and healbots. It's core of the isse and reason why so many matches sucks. There are other reasons ofc but I would place crossheals and healbots at number 1 spot.

brandonv516

After seeing a screenshot of an Xbox player healing for 3.4mil in a BGs match, it's obvious there needs to be some toning down of healing.

idk

So a team of 4 working as a team of 4 in a 4v4v4 match is a problem?

I read the OP and that question kept running through my mind. My thought is OP wants all teams in BGs to run in a disorganized manner in hopes they will get lucky and accidently win.

Strategy is an important part of group PvP and BGs is in fact group PvP. OP seems to be playing as though it is solo PvP and complaining about when they face an actual team.

Decimus

idk wrote: »

So a team of 4 working as a team of 4 in a 4v4v4 match is a problem?

I read the OP and that question kept running through my mind. My thought is OP wants all teams in BGs to run in a disorganized manner in hopes they will get lucky and accidently win.

Strategy is an important part of group PvP and BGs is in fact group PvP. OP seems to be playing as though it is solo PvP and complaining about when they face an actual team.

There is a difference between "working as a team" and running around in a messy zergball of players randomly pressing heals and AoE abilities while holding block, hoping that the sorc sitting in middle of that ball can get lucky and steal a kill or two for your team.

As it stands, you can face the worst players in the universe and still lose if they've built tanky enough and manage to press their heals often enough.

"Actual team", don't make me laugh.


"Team play" is the exact same argument Cyrodiil zerglings will bring up if you ask why they had to chase you for 20 minutes with 27 players - atleast Proximity Detonation & bombing is a thing over there, added to the game for a very good reason.

What BGs needs is more abilities like that, so if someone wanted to counter the strategy of "stack people up and spam heals while trying to get a lucky execute" they'd have a way to do so.

After all, what is so "strategic" about the current situation if it is the only viable (and definitely not fun for many, as evidenced by the small population of players in BGs) way to play BGs?

idk

Decimus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

So a team of 4 working as a team of 4 in a 4v4v4 match is a problem?

I read the OP and that question kept running through my mind. My thought is OP wants all teams in BGs to run in a disorganized manner in hopes they will get lucky and accidently win.

Strategy is an important part of group PvP and BGs is in fact group PvP. OP seems to be playing as though it is solo PvP and complaining about when they face an actual team.

There is a difference between "working as a team" and running around in a messy zergball of players randomly pressing heals and AoE abilities while holding block, hoping that the sorc sitting in middle of that ball can get lucky and steal a kill or two for your team.

As it stands, you can face the worst players in the universe and still lose if they've built tanky enough and manage to press their heals often enough.

"Actual team", don't make me laugh.


"Team play" is the exact same argument Cyrodiil zerglings will bring up if you ask why they had to chase you for 20 minutes with 27 players - atleast Proximity Detonation & bombing is a thing over there, added to the game for a very good reason.

What BGs needs is more abilities like that, so if someone wanted to counter the strategy of "stack people up and spam heals while trying to get a lucky execute" they'd have a way to do so.

After all, what is so "strategic" about the current situation if it is the only viable (and definitely not fun for many, as evidenced by the small population of players in BGs) way to play BGs?

You claim there is a difference between working as a team working as a team vs a messy zerg ball but they are clearly doing something right because you are complaining that they are doing better than your ream. You are literally complaining because you are getting killed by a team that runs together when you are running solo instead of as a team.

The fact that you laugh at them being an actual team (when literally that is what they are) while you and your team treat it as solo PvP says it all. If those worst players are out performing your team then they are clearly not the worst players.

Decimus

idk wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

So a team of 4 working as a team of 4 in a 4v4v4 match is a problem?

I read the OP and that question kept running through my mind. My thought is OP wants all teams in BGs to run in a disorganized manner in hopes they will get lucky and accidently win.

Strategy is an important part of group PvP and BGs is in fact group PvP. OP seems to be playing as though it is solo PvP and complaining about when they face an actual team.

There is a difference between "working as a team" and running around in a messy zergball of players randomly pressing heals and AoE abilities while holding block, hoping that the sorc sitting in middle of that ball can get lucky and steal a kill or two for your team.

As it stands, you can face the worst players in the universe and still lose if they've built tanky enough and manage to press their heals often enough.

"Actual team", don't make me laugh.


"Team play" is the exact same argument Cyrodiil zerglings will bring up if you ask why they had to chase you for 20 minutes with 27 players - atleast Proximity Detonation & bombing is a thing over there, added to the game for a very good reason.

What BGs needs is more abilities like that, so if someone wanted to counter the strategy of "stack people up and spam heals while trying to get a lucky execute" they'd have a way to do so.

After all, what is so "strategic" about the current situation if it is the only viable (and definitely not fun for many, as evidenced by the small population of players in BGs) way to play BGs?

You claim there is a difference between working as a team working as a team vs a messy zerg ball but they are clearly doing something right because you are complaining that they are doing better than your ream. You are literally complaining because you are getting killed by a team that runs together when you are running solo instead of as a team.

The fact that you laugh at them being an actual team (when literally that is what they are) while you and your team treat it as solo PvP says it all. If those worst players are out performing your team then they are clearly not the worst players.

Being automatically targeted by crossheals from 3 other players while standing nearby isn't something that requires team work (or even brains). I think you mistake these players for one of those premade groups that actually sync their ultimates or play around Harmony etc (and yes, there should be a way to counter those groups as well btw).

When I refer to "worst players in the universe", I'm talking of people who lose almost every single 1v1 and get 1vX'd on the daily when not being carried by crossheals from other people.


Many people solo queue into BGs, and instead of getting high health team mates holding block and spamming rapid regen, twilight heal, BoL etc to keep you alive they get people who build around damage (usually stam builds, with no crossheals), but still can't kill anything because other teams did get the crosshealing tanks.

In your mind, are they just supposed to lose the BG because of their chosen playstyle? Even if the actual skill level (movement, reaction time, comboing/weaving etc) of enemy players is vastly inferior?


It is infinitely easier to focus heals on team mates taking damage - in fact the game does that automatically for you, typically you won't even have to face the target of that heal and the heal over times are often applied before any damage is even registered. Compare this to coordinating burst with other damage oriented builds, or even focusing the same target (when not using comms).

It is blatantly obvious crosshealing & ball groups are broken, it takes a very biased view to claim otherwise.

xWarbrain

To say "ball groups are broken" is wrong on multiple levels. I'm confused as to what your definition of ball group is. A ball group is an organized group of players that stay tight while moving and support/heal each other while killing everything in its path (or attempting to). Nothing about this can be "broken", they are just a group of players playing well together.

You seem to be mad about 4-man BG teams that heal and do damage to players that did not queue as a group. I don't understand what the issue here is. It sounds like you don't have a build that works well in group settings (probably a stamblade?), whether you know the people on your team or not. Everyone should bring something to the table in a 4 man group that helps the group out.

To say there are lack of "ball group counters" is wrong. It doesn't make sense to say there is a lack of a way for 4 players that don't know each other and aren't communicating, nor have the time to comp their group for that match, to be effective against a pre-made 4 man team. There's no counter to good group composition other than better group composition.

Decimus

xWarbrain wrote: »

To say "ball groups are broken" is wrong on multiple levels. I'm confused as to what your definition of ball group is. A ball group is an organized group of players that stay tight while moving and support/heal each other while killing everything in its path (or attempting to). Nothing about this can be "broken", they are just a group of players playing well together.

You seem to be mad about 4-man BG teams that heal and do damage to players that did not queue as a group. I don't understand what the issue here is. It sounds like you don't have a build that works well in group settings (probably a stamblade?), whether you know the people on your team or not. Everyone should bring something to the table in a 4 man group that helps the group out.

To say there are lack of "ball group counters" is wrong. It doesn't make sense to say there is a lack of a way for 4 players that don't know each other and aren't communicating, nor have the time to comp their group for that match, to be effective against a pre-made 4 man team. There's no counter to good group composition other than better group composition.

You give these people way too much credit - it doesn't take much at all to stay tight while moving & spam heals, even random pugs do this. The brokenness is how overperforming that is compared to other ways of playing 4v4v4, and how it makes BGs boring tank fiestas that tend to end up with less than 300 score for the winning team (usually the team with the most sorcs spamming executes on people sitting in the AoE spamfest).

In other games I've played, that would've been either:
a) impossible, due to collision mechanics
b) a bad way to play, because crossheals don't carry as much in other MMOs and stacking your group would just wind up getting everyone AoE'd down eventually.

In other games (most other MMOs, MOBAs, FPS games etc) it is usually perfectly feasible for a solo player to carry their team, rather than having it be the other way around. This, coincidentally, tends to lead to a much more enjoyable solo queue experience.

You don't also always get to choose your team mates. Sometimes they may be fantastic players, but have no crossheals while the other team has terrible players with crossheals. You can guess which team wins.

Balanced? No, far from it. Fun? Nope.

"Good group composition" shouldn't equal 4 tanky players spamming heals on each other. It may be hard for people who enjoy that playstyle to understand that not everyone does (or even can) enjoy playing that way.


If this game is to have more than 30 people queueing into battlegrounds, Zenimax needs to make them actually fun to play.

xWarbrain

Decimus wrote: »

xWarbrain wrote: »

To say "ball groups are broken" is wrong on multiple levels. I'm confused as to what your definition of ball group is. A ball group is an organized group of players that stay tight while moving and support/heal each other while killing everything in its path (or attempting to). Nothing about this can be "broken", they are just a group of players playing well together.

You seem to be mad about 4-man BG teams that heal and do damage to players that did not queue as a group. I don't understand what the issue here is. It sounds like you don't have a build that works well in group settings (probably a stamblade?), whether you know the people on your team or not. Everyone should bring something to the table in a 4 man group that helps the group out.

To say there are lack of "ball group counters" is wrong. It doesn't make sense to say there is a lack of a way for 4 players that don't know each other and aren't communicating, nor have the time to comp their group for that match, to be effective against a pre-made 4 man team. There's no counter to good group composition other than better group composition.

You give these people way too much credit - it doesn't take much at all to stay tight while moving & spam heals, even random pugs do this. The brokenness is how overperforming that is compared to other ways of playing 4v4v4, and how it makes BGs boring tank fiestas that tend to end up with less than 300 score for the winning team (usually the team with the most sorcs spamming executes on people sitting in the AoE spamfest).

In other games I've played, that would've been either:
a) impossible, due to collision mechanics
b) a bad way to play, because crossheals don't carry as much in other MMOs and stacking your group would just wind up getting everyone AoE'd down eventually.

In other games (most other MMOs, MOBAs, FPS games etc) it is usually perfectly feasible for a solo player to carry their team, rather than having it be the other way around. This, coincidentally, tends to lead to a much more enjoyable solo queue experience.

You don't also always get to choose your team mates. Sometimes they may be fantastic players, but have no crossheals while the other team has terrible players with crossheals. You can guess which team wins.

Balanced? No, far from it. Fun? Nope.


If this game is to have more than 30 people queueing into battlegrounds, Zenimax needs to make them actually fun to play.

1. If its that easy, then do it. If it still doesn't win you the match, they are just better players than you.
2. This isn't those games. Irrelevant.
3. If they don't have cross heals, they aren't properly spec'd for BGs and should lose to teams that do have cross heals. This isn't Stamblade vs. Stamblade. Its BGs. Its designed to have a group of 4 outplaying other groups of 4.

You're looking at this all wrong. I think you need to either make a character that works well in BGs, or play in Imperial City or the fields around Alessia bridge.

idk

Decimus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

idk wrote: »

So a team of 4 working as a team of 4 in a 4v4v4 match is a problem?

I read the OP and that question kept running through my mind. My thought is OP wants all teams in BGs to run in a disorganized manner in hopes they will get lucky and accidently win.

Strategy is an important part of group PvP and BGs is in fact group PvP. OP seems to be playing as though it is solo PvP and complaining about when they face an actual team.

There is a difference between "working as a team" and running around in a messy zergball of players randomly pressing heals and AoE abilities while holding block, hoping that the sorc sitting in middle of that ball can get lucky and steal a kill or two for your team.

As it stands, you can face the worst players in the universe and still lose if they've built tanky enough and manage to press their heals often enough.

"Actual team", don't make me laugh.


"Team play" is the exact same argument Cyrodiil zerglings will bring up if you ask why they had to chase you for 20 minutes with 27 players - atleast Proximity Detonation & bombing is a thing over there, added to the game for a very good reason.

What BGs needs is more abilities like that, so if someone wanted to counter the strategy of "stack people up and spam heals while trying to get a lucky execute" they'd have a way to do so.

After all, what is so "strategic" about the current situation if it is the only viable (and definitely not fun for many, as evidenced by the small population of players in BGs) way to play BGs?

You claim there is a difference between working as a team working as a team vs a messy zerg ball but they are clearly doing something right because you are complaining that they are doing better than your ream. You are literally complaining because you are getting killed by a team that runs together when you are running solo instead of as a team.

The fact that you laugh at them being an actual team (when literally that is what they are) while you and your team treat it as solo PvP says it all. If those worst players are out performing your team then they are clearly not the worst players.

Being automatically targeted by crossheals from 3 other players while standing nearby isn't something that requires team work (or even brains). I think you mistake these players for one of those premade groups that actually sync their ultimates or play around Harmony etc (and yes, there should be a way to counter those groups as well btw).

When I refer to "worst players in the universe", I'm talking of people who lose almost every single 1v1 and get 1vX'd on the daily when not being carried by crossheals from other people.


Many people solo queue into BGs, and instead of getting high health team mates holding block and spamming rapid regen, twilight heal, BoL etc to keep you alive they get people who build around damage (usually stam builds, with no crossheals), but still can't kill anything because other teams did get the crosshealing tanks.

In your mind, are they just supposed to lose the BG because of their chosen playstyle? Even if the actual skill level (movement, reaction time, comboing/weaving etc) of enemy players is vastly inferior?


It is infinitely easier to focus heals on team mates taking damage - in fact the game does that automatically for you, typically you won't even have to face the target of that heal and the heal over times are often applied before any damage is even registered. Compare this to coordinating burst with other damage oriented builds, or even focusing the same target (when not using comms).

It is blatantly obvious crosshealing & ball groups are broken, it takes a very biased view to claim otherwise.

This sounds more like excuses for your teams lack of strategy and wanting to run around solo when the another team was smart enough to stick together.

What is blatantly obvious is when solo and running up against a group 4 player together it probably is not going to go very well for the solo player. It should not unless they are very bad player. Those are facts as they are and should be.

Decimus

xWarbrain wrote: »

Decimus wrote: »

xWarbrain wrote: »

To say "ball groups are broken" is wrong on multiple levels. I'm confused as to what your definition of ball group is. A ball group is an organized group of players that stay tight while moving and support/heal each other while killing everything in its path (or attempting to). Nothing about this can be "broken", they are just a group of players playing well together.

You seem to be mad about 4-man BG teams that heal and do damage to players that did not queue as a group. I don't understand what the issue here is. It sounds like you don't have a build that works well in group settings (probably a stamblade?), whether you know the people on your team or not. Everyone should bring something to the table in a 4 man group that helps the group out.

To say there are lack of "ball group counters" is wrong. It doesn't make sense to say there is a lack of a way for 4 players that don't know each other and aren't communicating, nor have the time to comp their group for that match, to be effective against a pre-made 4 man team. There's no counter to good group composition other than better group composition.

You give these people way too much credit - it doesn't take much at all to stay tight while moving & spam heals, even random pugs do this. The brokenness is how overperforming that is compared to other ways of playing 4v4v4, and how it makes BGs boring tank fiestas that tend to end up with less than 300 score for the winning team (usually the team with the most sorcs spamming executes on people sitting in the AoE spamfest).

In other games I've played, that would've been either:
a) impossible, due to collision mechanics
b) a bad way to play, because crossheals don't carry as much in other MMOs and stacking your group would just wind up getting everyone AoE'd down eventually.

In other games (most other MMOs, MOBAs, FPS games etc) it is usually perfectly feasible for a solo player to carry their team, rather than having it be the other way around. This, coincidentally, tends to lead to a much more enjoyable solo queue experience.

You don't also always get to choose your team mates. Sometimes they may be fantastic players, but have no crossheals while the other team has terrible players with crossheals. You can guess which team wins.

Balanced? No, far from it. Fun? Nope.


If this game is to have more than 30 people queueing into battlegrounds, Zenimax needs to make them actually fun to play.

1. If its that easy, then do it. If it still doesn't win you the match, they are just better players than you.

You can't do it if you are playing a class/build that doesn't have crossheals, or the team mates you get don't have crossheals.

Doesn't make it any less easy for the teams that happen to get crossheal builds.

xWarbrain wrote: »

2. This isn't those games. Irrelevant.

And why do you think PvP in this game is dying? Could it be that those other games do PvP significantly better?

xWarbrain wrote: »

3. If they don't have cross heals, they aren't properly spec'd for BGs and should lose to teams that do have cross heals. This isn't Stamblade vs. Stamblade. Its BGs. Its designed to have a group of 4 outplaying other groups of 4.

You're looking at this all wrong. I think you need to either make a character that works well in BGs, or play in Imperial City or the fields around Alessia bridge.

Right, right. So people should only be allowed to play certain builds/classes in the only (sometimes) fun PvP content this game has? Not only that, they should also play those only with other people? Do I need to tell you how ridiculous that sounds?

Atleast you now know why I made this post in the first place.