Magicka Combat Has Never Felt So Weak

Tolino

Trancestor wrote: »

Bg isnt solo

Bgs aren't PvP?

Bgs/Small scale: Magicka best (Magden/Stamden=>Magplar=>Magsorc)
Solo Cyro: rather Stam (Stamblade=>Magsorc=>Stamden)

Overall it is pretty well balanced!

Tommy_The_Gun

Kadoin wrote: »

Icky wrote: »

Roll a templar.

Don't you mean mag sorc?

Sorcplar

DRTE

imo stam can just ani cancel faster than mag so you end up with a big gap in how fast skills can be cast. i don't think theres that big of a gap between mag and stam. problem is that stam can stack massive weapon damage and do bigger heals than a healer rn.

Qbiken

DRTE wrote: »

imo stam can just ani cancel faster than mag so you end up with a big gap in how fast skills can be cast. i don't think theres that big of a gap between mag and stam. problem is that stam can stack massive weapon damage and do bigger heals than a healer rn.

Except that if you want to heal your allies you're forces to pick echoing vigor, which is significantly weaker than its magicka "counterpart" radiating regeneration. Stam has strong selfheals no doubt about it, but when it comes to cross-healing magicka wins.

DRTE

Qbiken wrote: »

DRTE wrote: »

imo stam can just ani cancel faster than mag so you end up with a big gap in how fast skills can be cast. i don't think theres that big of a gap between mag and stam. problem is that stam can stack massive weapon damage and do bigger heals than a healer rn.

Except that if you want to heal your allies you're forces to pick echoing vigor, which is significantly weaker than its magicka "counterpart" radiating regeneration. Stam has strong selfheals no doubt about it, but when it comes to cross-healing magicka wins.

yeah but i'm not saying don't look at that either. all heals across the board need to be looked at.

ThePedge

DRTE wrote: »

imo stam can just ani cancel faster than mag so you end up with a big gap in how fast skills can be cast. i don't think theres that big of a gap between mag and stam. problem is that stam can stack massive weapon damage and do bigger heals than a healer rn.

Amazing, every word of what you just said is wrong.

evoniee

magicka had to sacrifice something to get a baseline max stamina and stamina regen and pay extra attention to manage them

stamina skill cost 15% lower than its counterpart

GhostofDatthaw

Qbiken wrote: »

DRTE wrote: »

imo stam can just ani cancel faster than mag so you end up with a big gap in how fast skills can be cast. i don't think theres that big of a gap between mag and stam. problem is that stam can stack massive weapon damage and do bigger heals than a healer rn.

Except that if you want to heal your allies you're forces to pick echoing vigor, which is significantly weaker than its magicka "counterpart" radiating regeneration. Stam has strong selfheals no doubt about it, but when it comes to cross-healing magicka wins.

As it should, why would a dw/bow stamina spec heal better than mag classes who back bar a resto. This is a dead topic that made no sense when it was in game and was removed for a reason

brandonv516

Qbiken wrote: »

DRTE wrote: »

imo stam can just ani cancel faster than mag so you end up with a big gap in how fast skills can be cast. i don't think theres that big of a gap between mag and stam. problem is that stam can stack massive weapon damage and do bigger heals than a healer rn.

Except that if you want to heal your allies you're forces to pick echoing vigor, which is significantly weaker than its magicka "counterpart" radiating regeneration. Stam has strong selfheals no doubt about it, but when it comes to cross-healing magicka wins.

Pretty balanced it seems. Smaller radius on all allies versus longer distance capped at 2 allies.

Iskiab

brandonv516 wrote: »

Qbiken wrote: »

DRTE wrote: »

imo stam can just ani cancel faster than mag so you end up with a big gap in how fast skills can be cast. i don't think theres that big of a gap between mag and stam. problem is that stam can stack massive weapon damage and do bigger heals than a healer rn.

Except that if you want to heal your allies you're forces to pick echoing vigor, which is significantly weaker than its magicka "counterpart" radiating regeneration. Stam has strong selfheals no doubt about it, but when it comes to cross-healing magicka wins.

Pretty balanced it seems. Smaller radius on all allies versus longer distance capped at 2 allies.

Agreed. Don’t be fooled by the whining too, if echoing vigor was magicka based every healer would use it regardless of setting. Stamina healers revolves around it, it’s the 2nd best non-ultimate heal in the game.

Those who say it’s not powerful need to L2P. I’d give up rapid regen for echoing vigor in a heartbeat.

LegacyDM

Buff mageblade

Lord-Otto

LegacyDM wrote: »

Buff mageblade

Yup.

Iskiab

Lord-Otto wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

Buff mageblade

Yup.

Plus revert the protective trait nerfs.

I really wish people who’re against the tanky meta would keep an open mind and see the root cause. Nerfing protective has made wearing light armour more difficult then ever. We’re basicly one or two ways to make yourself tankier nerfs away from not being able to use light armour.

irstarkey57

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

- Less damage

- Less mobility

- Less sustain

- Less pressure

- Less self heals


Discuss!

Magsorc literally has all these in spades...

Iskiab

irstarkey57 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

- Less damage

- Less mobility

- Less sustain

- Less pressure

- Less self heals


Discuss!

Magsorc literally has all these in spades...

If you’re a Petsorc you have them all.

Lord-Otto

Iskiab wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

- Less damage

- Less mobility

- Less sustain

- Less pressure

- Less self heals


Discuss!

Magsorc literally has all these in spades...

If you’re a Petsorc you have them all.

- petsorc has less damage, as the loss of skill slots means giving up a damaging ability like Fury or Drain, etc

- pets don't handle mobility well and you're probably using Streak over BoL on a petsorc. Mobility isn't lacking, but it's hindered on petsorc.

- Twilight heal is HELLA expensive, keeping the weaker pet Hardened up burns through magicka quite quickly. Not to mention, Elemental Drain is probably not an option because slots. Non-pet sustain is better.

- pressure through the Twilight is better, if you don't lose a pressure skill through the slotting cost. If you're sacrificing Fury to the Twilight... oh, but whom am I telling? You know how this forum just LOVES Fury, amirite? I'd say this point is a tie and can go either way.

- HoT versus burstheal. You're definitely sacrificing Rapid Regen for the Twilight on a petsorc. Or Surge. I am not quite sure which one is better. Twilight can bring you out of execute, but it's useless when stunned or at near full health. RR/Surge tick passively and can top your HP off for all the damage that exceeds your shields. Pet can die, Rapid Regen can miss you, Surge might not activate at times. Overall, this point is tricky and really depends on circumstances.


No. Petsorcs don't get everything for free. Your statement is biased and superficial. Petsorcs are more TANKY. That's it. Non-pet is very flexible, with a lot of potential.

Iskiab

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

- Less damage

- Less mobility

- Less sustain

- Less pressure

- Less self heals


Discuss!

Magsorc literally has all these in spades...

If you’re a Petsorc you have them all.

- petsorc has less damage, as the loss of skill slots means giving up a damaging ability like Fury or Drain, etc

- pets don't handle mobility well and you're probably using Streak over BoL on a petsorc. Mobility isn't lacking, but it's hindered on petsorc.

- Twilight heal is HELLA expensive, keeping the weaker pet Hardened up burns through magicka quite quickly. Not to mention, Elemental Drain is probably not an option because slots. Non-pet sustain is better.

- pressure through the Twilight is better, if you don't lose a pressure skill through the slotting cost. If you're sacrificing Fury to the Twilight... oh, but whom am I telling? You know how this forum just LOVES Fury, amirite? I'd say this point is a tie and can go either way.

- HoT versus burstheal. You're definitely sacrificing Rapid Regen for the Twilight on a petsorc. Or Surge. I am not quite sure which one is better. Twilight can bring you out of execute, but it's useless when stunned or at near full health. RR/Surge tick passively and can top your HP off for all the damage that exceeds your shields. Pet can die, Rapid Regen can miss you, Surge might not activate at times. Overall, this point is tricky and really depends on circumstances.


No. Petsorcs don't get everything for free. Your statement is biased and superficial. Petsorcs are more TANKY. That's it. Non-pet is very flexible, with a lot of potential.

It’s not that bad.

BoL is really expensive yea, but it’s not that bad because it’s almost a full heal. I ran my build Necro, Chudan and bright throat as a woodelf. Skill setup as:

matriarch, Wrath, Frag, Curse, ward Ult Overload

Martraich, streak, dark deal, radiating regen, x Ult Barrier

It was a little squishy for my tastes, but easily had healing, could one shot people, and limitless sustain if you could dark deal. Sacrifice a spammable and hard cast frag in a pinch. Stun was hard to fit and usually put it on my front bar, which was crowded.

The only downside to Petsorc was fitting the pet, a heal (ward), Curse, Wrath, Frag and the stun.

The only reason I went magtemplar instead of sorc is I heal in cyrodiil and didn’t want the pet.

Lord-Otto

Iskiab wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

- Less damage

- Less mobility

- Less sustain

- Less pressure

- Less self heals


Discuss!

Magsorc literally has all these in spades...

If you’re a Petsorc you have them all.

- petsorc has less damage, as the loss of skill slots means giving up a damaging ability like Fury or Drain, etc

- pets don't handle mobility well and you're probably using Streak over BoL on a petsorc. Mobility isn't lacking, but it's hindered on petsorc.

- Twilight heal is HELLA expensive, keeping the weaker pet Hardened up burns through magicka quite quickly. Not to mention, Elemental Drain is probably not an option because slots. Non-pet sustain is better.

- pressure through the Twilight is better, if you don't lose a pressure skill through the slotting cost. If you're sacrificing Fury to the Twilight... oh, but whom am I telling? You know how this forum just LOVES Fury, amirite? I'd say this point is a tie and can go either way.

- HoT versus burstheal. You're definitely sacrificing Rapid Regen for the Twilight on a petsorc. Or Surge. I am not quite sure which one is better. Twilight can bring you out of execute, but it's useless when stunned or at near full health. RR/Surge tick passively and can top your HP off for all the damage that exceeds your shields. Pet can die, Rapid Regen can miss you, Surge might not activate at times. Overall, this point is tricky and really depends on circumstances.


No. Petsorcs don't get everything for free. Your statement is biased and superficial. Petsorcs are more TANKY. That's it. Non-pet is very flexible, with a lot of potential.

It’s not that bad.

BoL is really expensive yea, but it’s not that bad because it’s almost a full heal. I ran my build Necro, Chudan and bright throat as a woodelf. Skill setup as:

matriarch, Wrath, Frag, Curse, ward Ult Overload

Martraich, streak, dark deal, radiating regen, x Ult Barrier

It was a little squishy for my tastes, but easily had healing, could one shot people, and limitless sustain if you could dark deal. Sacrifice a spammable and hard cast frag in a pinch. Stun was hard to fit and usually put it on my front bar, which was crowded.

The only downside to Petsorc was fitting the pet, a heal (ward), Curse, Wrath, Frag and the stun.

The only reason I went magtemplar instead of sorc is I heal in cyrodiil and didn’t want the pet.

Yeah. I watched a clip yesterday. A guildie of mine with another ally chasing a single dude around a house for minutes, trying to kill him with Fury and hardcasted Frags. Also no stun on bar. I'll pass.
If you give up a spammable and a monster set like Bloodspawn for your build, that is quite a liability. Dark Conversion is also not endless sustain, it can be interrupted, you can be pressured and you need the stam sustain. I assume your stam regen is 700? Won't suffice for long.

Iskiab

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

- Less damage

- Less mobility

- Less sustain

- Less pressure

- Less self heals


Discuss!

Magsorc literally has all these in spades...

If you’re a Petsorc you have them all.

- petsorc has less damage, as the loss of skill slots means giving up a damaging ability like Fury or Drain, etc

- pets don't handle mobility well and you're probably using Streak over BoL on a petsorc. Mobility isn't lacking, but it's hindered on petsorc.

- Twilight heal is HELLA expensive, keeping the weaker pet Hardened up burns through magicka quite quickly. Not to mention, Elemental Drain is probably not an option because slots. Non-pet sustain is better.

- pressure through the Twilight is better, if you don't lose a pressure skill through the slotting cost. If you're sacrificing Fury to the Twilight... oh, but whom am I telling? You know how this forum just LOVES Fury, amirite? I'd say this point is a tie and can go either way.

- HoT versus burstheal. You're definitely sacrificing Rapid Regen for the Twilight on a petsorc. Or Surge. I am not quite sure which one is better. Twilight can bring you out of execute, but it's useless when stunned or at near full health. RR/Surge tick passively and can top your HP off for all the damage that exceeds your shields. Pet can die, Rapid Regen can miss you, Surge might not activate at times. Overall, this point is tricky and really depends on circumstances.


No. Petsorcs don't get everything for free. Your statement is biased and superficial. Petsorcs are more TANKY. That's it. Non-pet is very flexible, with a lot of potential.

It’s not that bad.

BoL is really expensive yea, but it’s not that bad because it’s almost a full heal. I ran my build Necro, Chudan and bright throat as a woodelf. Skill setup as:

matriarch, Wrath, Frag, Curse, ward Ult Overload

Martraich, streak, dark deal, radiating regen, x Ult Barrier

It was a little squishy for my tastes, but easily had healing, could one shot people, and limitless sustain if you could dark deal. Sacrifice a spammable and hard cast frag in a pinch. Stun was hard to fit and usually put it on my front bar, which was crowded.

The only downside to Petsorc was fitting the pet, a heal (ward), Curse, Wrath, Frag and the stun.

The only reason I went magtemplar instead of sorc is I heal in cyrodiil and didn’t want the pet.

Yeah. I watched a clip yesterday. A guildie of mine with another ally chasing a single dude around a house for minutes, trying to kill him with Fury and hardcasted Frags. Also no stun on bar. I'll pass.
If you give up a spammable and a monster set like Bloodspawn for your build, that is quite a liability. Dark Conversion is also not endless sustain, it can be interrupted, you can be pressured and you need the stam sustain. I assume your stam regen is 700? Won't suffice for long.

Well you don’t need a spammable at all if you’re 1vXing. Your friend’s problem was moreso chasing someone as a sorc, range is your game not someone else’s.

I played it more in BGs. Dark deal as a heal is fine if you have streak. Streak x2 dark deal and you’re good to go.

Wood elf plus the big stamina sustain passive meant stamina wasn’t an issue. I played Petsorc for the heal so 1vX wasn’t my concern, but I Mathed it out. Hard casting frag means the damage is at the cast so following it up with wrath is totally possible. I think my tooltip damage was 50k total combined I could put out in less than a second, sorc is easily the highest burst damage class.

When I tried it in BGs it went as expected, you can global people pretty easily if it lines up.

Lord-Otto

Iskiab wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

irstarkey57 wrote: »

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

- Less damage

- Less mobility

- Less sustain

- Less pressure

- Less self heals


Discuss!

Magsorc literally has all these in spades...

If you’re a Petsorc you have them all.

- petsorc has less damage, as the loss of skill slots means giving up a damaging ability like Fury or Drain, etc

- pets don't handle mobility well and you're probably using Streak over BoL on a petsorc. Mobility isn't lacking, but it's hindered on petsorc.

- Twilight heal is HELLA expensive, keeping the weaker pet Hardened up burns through magicka quite quickly. Not to mention, Elemental Drain is probably not an option because slots. Non-pet sustain is better.

- pressure through the Twilight is better, if you don't lose a pressure skill through the slotting cost. If you're sacrificing Fury to the Twilight... oh, but whom am I telling? You know how this forum just LOVES Fury, amirite? I'd say this point is a tie and can go either way.

- HoT versus burstheal. You're definitely sacrificing Rapid Regen for the Twilight on a petsorc. Or Surge. I am not quite sure which one is better. Twilight can bring you out of execute, but it's useless when stunned or at near full health. RR/Surge tick passively and can top your HP off for all the damage that exceeds your shields. Pet can die, Rapid Regen can miss you, Surge might not activate at times. Overall, this point is tricky and really depends on circumstances.


No. Petsorcs don't get everything for free. Your statement is biased and superficial. Petsorcs are more TANKY. That's it. Non-pet is very flexible, with a lot of potential.

It’s not that bad.

BoL is really expensive yea, but it’s not that bad because it’s almost a full heal. I ran my build Necro, Chudan and bright throat as a woodelf. Skill setup as:

matriarch, Wrath, Frag, Curse, ward Ult Overload

Martraich, streak, dark deal, radiating regen, x Ult Barrier

It was a little squishy for my tastes, but easily had healing, could one shot people, and limitless sustain if you could dark deal. Sacrifice a spammable and hard cast frag in a pinch. Stun was hard to fit and usually put it on my front bar, which was crowded.

The only downside to Petsorc was fitting the pet, a heal (ward), Curse, Wrath, Frag and the stun.

The only reason I went magtemplar instead of sorc is I heal in cyrodiil and didn’t want the pet.

Yeah. I watched a clip yesterday. A guildie of mine with another ally chasing a single dude around a house for minutes, trying to kill him with Fury and hardcasted Frags. Also no stun on bar. I'll pass.
If you give up a spammable and a monster set like Bloodspawn for your build, that is quite a liability. Dark Conversion is also not endless sustain, it can be interrupted, you can be pressured and you need the stam sustain. I assume your stam regen is 700? Won't suffice for long.

Well you don’t need a spammable at all if you’re 1vXing. Your friend’s problem was moreso chasing someone as a sorc, range is your game not someone else’s.

I played it more in BGs. Dark deal as a heal is fine if you have streak. Streak x2 dark deal and you’re good to go.

Wood elf plus the big stamina sustain passive meant stamina wasn’t an issue. I played Petsorc for the heal so 1vX wasn’t my concern, but I Mathed it out. Hard casting frag means the damage is at the cast so following it up with wrath is totally possible. I think my tooltip damage was 50k total combined I could put out in less than a second, sorc is easily the highest burst damage class.

When I tried it in BGs it went as expected, you can global people pretty easily if it lines up.

His problem was that his enemy didn't drop below 20% to proc Fury. And that was because hardcasting the Frag gave enough time to heal and no stun meant never a downtime on defensive actions. It was painful to watch and I totally expect you to perform better. But the message is, it's not very flexible. And you admit that in your very last sentence, "IF it lines up".

How much stam sustain does Woodelf amount to on that build? Regardless, keep in mind, the more Conversion you need to sustain, the more time you lose. It CAN work, but it can also go horribly wrong.

Like, I'm not saying petsorcs are unusable. Far from it. I actually got two sorcs, one is using pets, one is not. There are noticeable weaknesses and strengths to each one and overall, I'd say they're more or less equal. How and where you use which one makes or breaks performance. I prefer non-pet versatility overall, but neither build is strictly superior.

For your build it's clear, you said it yourself: it's squishy. Bloodspawn is missed. Or a second shield. That's your sacrifice right there. If it works for you, great! But there is a weakness, and it is caused by the slotting of the pet. Ups and downs to both specs, no clear winner.