Magicka Combat Has Never Felt So Weak

ThePedge

Offensive ultimates also scale with your highest offensive stats, so should be no difference.

Dawnbreaker is 100% viable on Magicka builds unless you're in CP.

I've used it on MagPlar. DBoS into Sweeps.

Iskiab

ThePedge wrote: »

Offensive ultimates also scale with your highest offensive stats, so should be no difference.

Dawnbreaker is 100% viable on Magicka builds unless you're in CP.

I've used it on MagPlar. DBoS into Sweeps.

You can, but I think meteor and Crescent are better. I actually feel like in the whole stam vs mag thing, mag’s the strongest it’s been since I started playing. Stronger then stamina right now for sure.

Aedaryl

ThePedge wrote: »

Offensive ultimates also scale with your highest offensive stats, so should be no difference.

Dawnbreaker is 100% viable on Magicka builds unless you're in CP.

I've used it on MagPlar. DBoS into Sweeps.

You forgot that ultimate that does damage do it either from your spell penetration if it's magic type of damage or physical penetration if it's stamina type of damage.

Dawnbreaker in no CP does scale with lot of things on a magicka build, but not with spell penetration, which is a true damage lost considering how strong light armor penetration and buff like major breach from ele drain and/or spinner set tend to be.

Galarthor

Lets not forget the recent massive cost increases to defensive abilities. These hit magicka builds far harder than stamina builds as the latter can subsitute and/or complement with block and dodge, which were not hit by the same cost increase hammer. In addition to that, those two abilities can also have their cost reduced through CPs and Armor Traits, something that is not afforded to any of the magicka defensive tools. And as a nice cherry on top, stam abilities generally cost 10% less. In other words, stam builds have a built-in 5pc set bonus.

The reason give, that stam builds have to pay for break-free, block, and sprint from their primary resource pool while magicka builds only have to pay for it with their secondary resource pool is BS too. Stam builds have the LUXURY to be able to pay for these 3 abilities with their primary resource, b/c having to add to your primary resource pool in order to perform these 3 abilities does not only enable you to use these 3 abilities but also increases your damage. The same is not true if you have to add stats to your secondary resource pool as magicka builds have to do.

All of that enables stam builds to put far more bonuses / stats into weapon damage b/c they need less sustain compared with magicka builds. But it doesn't stop there. Because stam builds do not have to increase the effectiveness of dodge and block, like magicka builds have to do for shields and heals, they need even less max resources and can thus afford to put more into weapon damage and / or sustain, giving them an even greater edge over magicka builds.

But boys and girls, the fun is not over yet. Because stamina builds have significantly higher weapon damage than magicka builds can have spell damage, the former also profit significantly more from major brutality (+20% weapon damage) than the latter does from major sorcery (+20% spell damage) - this is especially true for magicka builds that use shields b/c they have to maximize max magicka for which there is no major or minor buff!

ThePedge

Galarthor wrote: »

Lets not forget the recent massive cost increases to defensive abilities. These hit magicka builds far harder than stamina builds as the latter can subsitute and/or complement with block and dodge, which were not hit by the same cost increase hammer. In addition to that, those two abilities can also have their cost reduced through CPs and Armor Traits, something that is not afforded to any of the magicka defensive tools. And as a nice cherry on top, stam abilities generally cost 10% less. In other words, stam builds have a built-in 5pc set bonus.

The reason give, that stam builds have to pay for break-free, block, and sprint from their primary resource pool while magicka builds only have to pay for it with their secondary resource pool is BS too. Stam builds have the LUXURY to be able to pay for these 3 abilities with their primary resource, b/c having to add to your primary resource pool in order to perform these 3 abilities does not only enable you to use these 3 abilities but also increases your damage. The same is not true if you have to add stats to your secondary resource pool as magicka builds have to do.

All of that enables stam builds to put far more bonuses / stats into weapon damage b/c they need less sustain compared with magicka builds. But it doesn't stop there. Because stam builds do not have to increase the effectiveness of dodge and block, like magicka builds have to do for shields and heals, they need even less max resources and can thus afford to put more into weapon damage and / or sustain, giving them an even greater edge over magicka builds.

But boys and girls, the fun is not over yet. Because stamina builds have significantly higher weapon damage than magicka builds can have spell damage, the former also profit significantly more from major brutality (+20% weapon damage) than the latter does from major sorcery (+20% spell damage) - this is especially true for magicka builds that use shields b/c they have to maximize max magicka for which there is no major or minor buff!

10.5 Magicka == 1 Spell Damage
So yes Stamina builds have high WD, but usually much less max stat.

Magicka runs shields alongside maybe 1 heal, shields are instant instead of the main stamina heal - Vigor - which takes 4 seconds and will be of similar strength.

Stamina abilities cost less because it's also needed for Break Free, Sprint, Block.
It's not like you don't use those as magicka so what you lack in cost, you have a separate pool entirely for those.

The two are well balanced, magicka is just stronger.

Galarthor

The value of the set bonuses are:
129 Spell damage and 1096 Max magicka

Given your conversion ratio of 10.5 Magicka == 1 Spell Damage, the Magicka set bonus is equivalent to
1096/10.5 = 104.4 Spell damage

Since the actual spell damage set bonus is 129, that means it is actually
129/104.4 = 1.24 -> 24% stronger. That comparable to the difference between CP and nonCP. That is HUGE.

If you then also factor in Major Sorcery / Brutality:
129*1.2 / 104.4 = 1.48 -> 48% stronger! Yeah ... a really miniscule difference in power level.

As for the "but Break Free, Sprint, and Block cost stamina" arguement: see "spoiler" in my post above.
And keep in mind, magicka builds have to actively invest into stam and stam recovery. The baseline max stam and baseline stam recovery are not enough. It's this necessary "sacrifice" of magicka builds that does not warrant the 10% cost reduction on stamina abilities. Especially since stam builds make heavy use of Block, Dodge, Sprint and all 3 have their cost reduced by CPs and Armor Traits!

Joy_Division

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

- Less damage

- Less mobility

- Less sustain

- Less pressure

- Less self heals


Discuss!

Maybe in 2017. Or if you play a Nightblade.

arkansas_ESO

People forget the 10% free damage stam builds get from the combination of Exploiter and Tactician - that is often as much as what a damage set will give you. They also have better gear options for small scale and solo play (there is no magicka equivalent to Fury or Truth.)

(but magplar and magsorc are still two of the strongest specs in the game currently)

ExistingRug61

I have always found the cost reduction all stamina abilities get to be interesting.

The reason frequently given for it is that stamina builds use the same resource pool for their skills as they use for block, break free and dodge. Whereas for magicka builds get to use their other pool for this.

However in my experience of PvP, both stamina builds almost always use their magicka pools for some utility skills. So they get the benefit of using the off pool for that, whereas magicka builds almost never use stamina for utility skills.

So couldn’t a similar argument be made that magicka needs cost reduction on its skills, as they use the same resource pool for their skills as they use for all utility skills? Whereas stamina builds get to use their other pool for this.

Anecdotally, this aligns with what I find when building characters, which is that magicka builds generally need more invested in regen to feel they can sustain as well as stamina.

It is also why I believe we have the existence of minor magicka-steal but not minor stamina-steal. Given PvE magicka builds have the advantage of minor magicka-steal, why don’t we have the case that stamina PvE builds have to invest significantly more heavily in sustain than magicka PvE builds? We don’t, and the cost reduction advantage stamina has is a lot of the reason why.

So I think the argument that stamina builds need cost reduction because they also use stamina for block, break free and dodge roll, is not really the case. That cost reduction is an advantage stamina has over magicka, but this is balanced (in PvE at least) by the existence of minor magicka-steal.

Now in PvP I find not many magicka builds use minor magicka-steal (and if they do they have to dedicate a skill to it) whereas all stamina builds get their cost reduction built in just for being stamina. So in this environment I think it favours stamina.

Now, I am not saying that is needs to change – Rather this is just by observation/analysis on this topic. I find the differences in how you have to build between stamina and magicka are one of the things that keep builds diverse and interesting, and that even if I find stamina has an advantage in this area magicka has advantages in other areas.

Iskiab

I think any stat difference between mag and stam is a moot point. At this point skills have been tuned around any inherent difference in strengths.

BaiterOfZergs

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

People forget the 10% free damage stam builds get from the combination of Exploiter and Tactician - that is often as much as what a damage set will give you. They also have better gear options for small scale and solo play (there is no magicka equivalent to Fury or Truth.)

(but magplar and magsorc are still two of the strongest specs in the game currently)

Lol yeah a magicka version of fury would just lead to complaints about Magplar and magdk.

The only “bad” spec for small scale is magnecro and that’s actually debatable. Maybe bad solo but in a small group they bring something to the table.

Mayrael

Galarthor wrote: »

Lets not forget the recent massive cost increases to defensive abilities. These hit magicka builds far harder than stamina builds as the latter can subsitute and/or complement with block and dodge, which were not hit by the same cost increase hammer. In addition to that, those two abilities can also have their cost reduced through CPs and Armor Traits, something that is not afforded to any of the magicka defensive tools. And as a nice cherry on top, stam abilities generally cost 10% less. In other words, stam builds have a built-in 5pc set bonus.

The reason give, that stam builds have to pay for break-free, block, and sprint from their primary resource pool while magicka builds only have to pay for it with their secondary resource pool is BS too. Stam builds have the LUXURY to be able to pay for these 3 abilities with their primary resource, b/c having to add to your primary resource pool in order to perform these 3 abilities does not only enable you to use these 3 abilities but also increases your damage. The same is not true if you have to add stats to your secondary resource pool as magicka builds have to do.

All of that enables stam builds to put far more bonuses / stats into weapon damage b/c they need less sustain compared with magicka builds. But it doesn't stop there. Because stam builds do not have to increase the effectiveness of dodge and block, like magicka builds have to do for shields and heals, they need even less max resources and can thus afford to put more into weapon damage and / or sustain, giving them an even greater edge over magicka builds.

But boys and girls, the fun is not over yet. Because stamina builds have significantly higher weapon damage than magicka builds can have spell damage, the former also profit significantly more from major brutality (+20% weapon damage) than the latter does from major sorcery (+20% spell damage) - this is especially true for magicka builds that use shields b/c they have to maximize max magicka for which there is no major or minor buff!

Very good points, that are not even debatable, these are facts especially when we talk about noCP PvP like BGs.

One thing could change all those things.

Only higher stat pool is used to block, dodge, and break free. Then make costs of the skills even. Boom magicka is no longer bound to only magicka skills.

ThePedge

Galarthor wrote: »

The value of the set bonuses are:
129 Spell damage and 1096 Max magicka

Given your conversion ratio of 10.5 Magicka == 1 Spell Damage, the Magicka set bonus is equivalent to
1096/10.5 = 104.4 Spell damage

Since the actual spell damage set bonus is 129, that means it is actually
129/104.4 = 1.24 -> 24% stronger. That comparable to the difference between CP and nonCP. That is HUGE.

If you then also factor in Major Sorcery / Brutality:
129*1.2 / 104.4 = 1.48 -> 48% stronger! Yeah ... a really miniscule difference in power level.

As for the "but Break Free, Sprint, and Block cost stamina" arguement: see "spoiler" in my post above.
And keep in mind, magicka builds have to actively invest into stam and stam recovery. The baseline max stam and baseline stam recovery are not enough. It's this necessary "sacrifice" of magicka builds that does not warrant the 10% cost reduction on stamina abilities. Especially since stam builds make heavy use of Block, Dodge, Sprint and all 3 have their cost reduced by CPs and Armor Traits!

So you don't run any +% Max Magicka, like Undaunted, Mages Guild, or class passives?

And I will no longer debate this with you as you're bringing CP into it which everyone knows is ***.

Galarthor

Mayrael wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Lets not forget the recent massive cost increases to defensive abilities. These hit magicka builds far harder than stamina builds as the latter can subsitute and/or complement with block and dodge, which were not hit by the same cost increase hammer. In addition to that, those two abilities can also have their cost reduced through CPs and Armor Traits, something that is not afforded to any of the magicka defensive tools. And as a nice cherry on top, stam abilities generally cost 10% less. In other words, stam builds have a built-in 5pc set bonus.

The reason give, that stam builds have to pay for break-free, block, and sprint from their primary resource pool while magicka builds only have to pay for it with their secondary resource pool is BS too. Stam builds have the LUXURY to be able to pay for these 3 abilities with their primary resource, b/c having to add to your primary resource pool in order to perform these 3 abilities does not only enable you to use these 3 abilities but also increases your damage. The same is not true if you have to add stats to your secondary resource pool as magicka builds have to do.

All of that enables stam builds to put far more bonuses / stats into weapon damage b/c they need less sustain compared with magicka builds. But it doesn't stop there. Because stam builds do not have to increase the effectiveness of dodge and block, like magicka builds have to do for shields and heals, they need even less max resources and can thus afford to put more into weapon damage and / or sustain, giving them an even greater edge over magicka builds.

But boys and girls, the fun is not over yet. Because stamina builds have significantly higher weapon damage than magicka builds can have spell damage, the former also profit significantly more from major brutality (+20% weapon damage) than the latter does from major sorcery (+20% spell damage) - this is especially true for magicka builds that use shields b/c they have to maximize max magicka for which there is no major or minor buff!

Very good points, that are not even debatable, these are facts especially when we talk about noCP PvP like BGs.

One thing could change all those things.

Only higher stat pool is used to block, dodge, and break free. Then make costs of the skills even. Boom magicka is no longer bound to only magicka skills.

I'd suggest the following solution:

• Dodge Roll keeps costing stamina ... it's a very "physical" action
• Block costs magicka after all it is akin to a ward and would also explain that weird symbol in front of you
• Break-free costs which ever resource pool is higher stamina or magicka

Alternatively:

• Dodge Roll keeps costing stamina ... it's a very "physical" action
• Block costs magicka after all it is akin to a ward and would also explain that weird symbol in front of you
• Break-free gets its own resource, but that might be a lot more complicated

That only leaves Sprint. But that could be circumvented by having sprint cost stamina, but all speed buffs cost magicka. So any build will need a bit of both.

Galarthor

ThePedge wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

The value of the set bonuses are:
129 Spell damage and 1096 Max magicka

Given your conversion ratio of 10.5 Magicka == 1 Spell Damage, the Magicka set bonus is equivalent to
1096/10.5 = 104.4 Spell damage

Since the actual spell damage set bonus is 129, that means it is actually
129/104.4 = 1.24 -> 24% stronger. That comparable to the difference between CP and nonCP. That is HUGE.

If you then also factor in Major Sorcery / Brutality:
129*1.2 / 104.4 = 1.48 -> 48% stronger! Yeah ... a really miniscule difference in power level.

As for the "but Break Free, Sprint, and Block cost stamina" arguement: see "spoiler" in my post above.
And keep in mind, magicka builds have to actively invest into stam and stam recovery. The baseline max stam and baseline stam recovery are not enough. It's this necessary "sacrifice" of magicka builds that does not warrant the 10% cost reduction on stamina abilities. Especially since stam builds make heavy use of Block, Dodge, Sprint and all 3 have their cost reduced by CPs and Armor Traits!

So you don't run any +% Max Magicka, like Undaunted, Mages Guild, or class passives?

And I will no longer debate this with you as you're bringing CP into it which everyone knows is ***.

Great reasoning there. You must be the uncontested champion of the debate team.

1) What's your first point? There are also passives that boost max stamina and more importantly the already much more potent (see above) weapon damage - for example, medium armor and fighters guild. But on top of that there are both major and minor brutality (and sorcery), which buff weapon damage (and spell damage) even further.

2) CP system being broken, does not mean you should ignore it. It's still very much part of vast majority of this game. That's like saying "Yeah, slavery is a bad thing, but everybody is using it. So let's ignore it."

Iskiab

Only change they should make is halve the base cost of break free.

Spamming stuns shouldn’t be a pvp strategy.

ThePedge

Galarthor wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

The value of the set bonuses are:
129 Spell damage and 1096 Max magicka

Given your conversion ratio of 10.5 Magicka == 1 Spell Damage, the Magicka set bonus is equivalent to
1096/10.5 = 104.4 Spell damage

Since the actual spell damage set bonus is 129, that means it is actually
129/104.4 = 1.24 -> 24% stronger. That comparable to the difference between CP and nonCP. That is HUGE.

If you then also factor in Major Sorcery / Brutality:
129*1.2 / 104.4 = 1.48 -> 48% stronger! Yeah ... a really miniscule difference in power level.

As for the "but Break Free, Sprint, and Block cost stamina" arguement: see "spoiler" in my post above.
And keep in mind, magicka builds have to actively invest into stam and stam recovery. The baseline max stam and baseline stam recovery are not enough. It's this necessary "sacrifice" of magicka builds that does not warrant the 10% cost reduction on stamina abilities. Especially since stam builds make heavy use of Block, Dodge, Sprint and all 3 have their cost reduced by CPs and Armor Traits!

So you don't run any +% Max Magicka, like Undaunted, Mages Guild, or class passives?

And I will no longer debate this with you as you're bringing CP into it which everyone knows is ***.

Great reasoning there. You must be the uncontested champion of the debate team.

1) What's your first point? There are also passives that boost max stamina and more importantly the already much more potent (see above) weapon damage - for example, medium armor and fighters guild. But on top of that there are both major and minor brutality (and sorcery), which buff weapon damage (and spell damage) even further.

2) CP system being broken, does not mean you should ignore it. It's still very much part of vast majority of this game. That's like saying "Yeah, slavery is a bad thing, but everybody is using it. So let's ignore it."

But you've only factored in Major Brutality and not other bonuses, so it's not 48% better as you're intentionally selecting buffs to fuel your agenda.

CP is disabled in BGs. Magicka builds dominate BGs.

Luckylancer

OP is right. There was big nerfs to mag classes like:

Rally burst heal nerf, dizzy swing nerf, onslaught nerf, dawnbreaker nerf. It is lettraly unplayable. Stamplars are so over powered too. Nerf them!

Galarthor

ThePedge wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

The value of the set bonuses are:
129 Spell damage and 1096 Max magicka

Given your conversion ratio of 10.5 Magicka == 1 Spell Damage, the Magicka set bonus is equivalent to
1096/10.5 = 104.4 Spell damage

Since the actual spell damage set bonus is 129, that means it is actually
129/104.4 = 1.24 -> 24% stronger. That comparable to the difference between CP and nonCP. That is HUGE.

If you then also factor in Major Sorcery / Brutality:
129*1.2 / 104.4 = 1.48 -> 48% stronger! Yeah ... a really miniscule difference in power level.

As for the "but Break Free, Sprint, and Block cost stamina" arguement: see "spoiler" in my post above.
And keep in mind, magicka builds have to actively invest into stam and stam recovery. The baseline max stam and baseline stam recovery are not enough. It's this necessary "sacrifice" of magicka builds that does not warrant the 10% cost reduction on stamina abilities. Especially since stam builds make heavy use of Block, Dodge, Sprint and all 3 have their cost reduced by CPs and Armor Traits!

So you don't run any +% Max Magicka, like Undaunted, Mages Guild, or class passives?

And I will no longer debate this with you as you're bringing CP into it which everyone knows is ***.

Great reasoning there. You must be the uncontested champion of the debate team.

1) What's your first point? There are also passives that boost max stamina and more importantly the already much more potent (see above) weapon damage - for example, medium armor and fighters guild. But on top of that there are both major and minor brutality (and sorcery), which buff weapon damage (and spell damage) even further.

2) CP system being broken, does not mean you should ignore it. It's still very much part of vast majority of this game. That's like saying "Yeah, slavery is a bad thing, but everybody is using it. So let's ignore it."

But you've only factored in Major Brutality and not other bonuses, so it's not 48% better as you're intentionally selecting buffs to fuel your agenda.

CP is disabled in BGs. Magicka builds dominate BGs.

There are also other bonuses to Weapon / Spell damage that have not be factored in. But that is not very relevant to the issue at hand. The fact that 10.5 magicka = 1 spell damage means that each set bonus of weapon / spell damage is 24% stronger than an equivalent set bonus of stamina / magicka. And the fact that there is a 20% (with minor even 25%) boost to weapon / spell damage with no equivalent boost to stamina / magicka means that is power discrepancy becomes 48%.

Sure you could factor in other bonuses, but they are more or less of the same magnitude for both weapon / spell damage and stamina / magicka, which means they cancel each other more or less out. So their overall does not change all that much. For example: You get +6% stamina / magicka from undaunted, but you get just as easily 6% to 10% weapon / spell damage from sorcerer passive (which by the way is greatly devalued by the fact that you don't have much spell damage as a sorcerer). Or 15% weapon damage from Medium armor.

The point is, these other bonuses are somewhat equally distributed and got their equivalent counterparts. The same cannot be said for Major & Minor Brutality / Sorcery and as such it leads to a huge distortion in power levels, especially in combition with the fact that weapon / spell damage set bonuses are 24% more potent than stamina / magicka set bonuses. There is a reason why stamina build, who unlike magicka builds got a choice whether to choose stamina or weapon damage, all opt to choose weapon damage!

Ariades_swe

ThePedge wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

The value of the set bonuses are:
129 Spell damage and 1096 Max magicka

Given your conversion ratio of 10.5 Magicka == 1 Spell Damage, the Magicka set bonus is equivalent to
1096/10.5 = 104.4 Spell damage

Since the actual spell damage set bonus is 129, that means it is actually
129/104.4 = 1.24 -> 24% stronger. That comparable to the difference between CP and nonCP. That is HUGE.

If you then also factor in Major Sorcery / Brutality:
129*1.2 / 104.4 = 1.48 -> 48% stronger! Yeah ... a really miniscule difference in power level.

As for the "but Break Free, Sprint, and Block cost stamina" arguement: see "spoiler" in my post above.
And keep in mind, magicka builds have to actively invest into stam and stam recovery. The baseline max stam and baseline stam recovery are not enough. It's this necessary "sacrifice" of magicka builds that does not warrant the 10% cost reduction on stamina abilities. Especially since stam builds make heavy use of Block, Dodge, Sprint and all 3 have their cost reduced by CPs and Armor Traits!

So you don't run any +% Max Magicka, like Undaunted, Mages Guild, or class passives?

And I will no longer debate this with you as you're bringing CP into it which everyone knows is ***.

Great reasoning there. You must be the uncontested champion of the debate team.

1) What's your first point? There are also passives that boost max stamina and more importantly the already much more potent (see above) weapon damage - for example, medium armor and fighters guild. But on top of that there are both major and minor brutality (and sorcery), which buff weapon damage (and spell damage) even further.

2) CP system being broken, does not mean you should ignore it. It's still very much part of vast majority of this game. That's like saying "Yeah, slavery is a bad thing, but everybody is using it. So let's ignore it."

But you've only factored in Major Brutality and not other bonuses, so it's not 48% better as you're intentionally selecting buffs to fuel your agenda.

CP is disabled in BGs. Magicka builds dominate BGs.

Lol

Anyron

ThePedge wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

ThePedge wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

The value of the set bonuses are:
129 Spell damage and 1096 Max magicka

Given your conversion ratio of 10.5 Magicka == 1 Spell Damage, the Magicka set bonus is equivalent to
1096/10.5 = 104.4 Spell damage

Since the actual spell damage set bonus is 129, that means it is actually
129/104.4 = 1.24 -> 24% stronger. That comparable to the difference between CP and nonCP. That is HUGE.

If you then also factor in Major Sorcery / Brutality:
129*1.2 / 104.4 = 1.48 -> 48% stronger! Yeah ... a really miniscule difference in power level.

As for the "but Break Free, Sprint, and Block cost stamina" arguement: see "spoiler" in my post above.
And keep in mind, magicka builds have to actively invest into stam and stam recovery. The baseline max stam and baseline stam recovery are not enough. It's this necessary "sacrifice" of magicka builds that does not warrant the 10% cost reduction on stamina abilities. Especially since stam builds make heavy use of Block, Dodge, Sprint and all 3 have their cost reduced by CPs and Armor Traits!

So you don't run any +% Max Magicka, like Undaunted, Mages Guild, or class passives?

And I will no longer debate this with you as you're bringing CP into it which everyone knows is ***.

Great reasoning there. You must be the uncontested champion of the debate team.

1) What's your first point? There are also passives that boost max stamina and more importantly the already much more potent (see above) weapon damage - for example, medium armor and fighters guild. But on top of that there are both major and minor brutality (and sorcery), which buff weapon damage (and spell damage) even further.

2) CP system being broken, does not mean you should ignore it. It's still very much part of vast majority of this game. That's like saying "Yeah, slavery is a bad thing, but everybody is using it. So let's ignore it."

But you've only factored in Major Brutality and not other bonuses, so it's not 48% better as you're intentionally selecting buffs to fuel your agenda.

CP is disabled in BGs. Magicka builds dominate BGs.

In no-cp its even worse for magicka.
While you can get your Weapon Damage from major/minor brutality, cp bonus in noCp is disabled (+20% stat). That is what sort of ballances difference in weapon/spell damage and magicka stacking in CP. (if you forget weapon/spell damage sets are stronger than max mag/stam sets)

Only reason why magicka keeps investing to max magicka is shields scale with it and spell damage cannot buff it. Even if you choose to abandon your shield, its impossible to reach as much spell damage like weapon damage. While you can found 7k weapon damage builds, i never saw any over 5k spell damage and that is huge difference

So saying magicka dominates BGs is wrong

NyassaV

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

- Less damage

- Less mobility

- Less sustain

- Less pressure

- Less self heals


Discuss!

Are you playing a magblade? Magplar, mDK, and Mag Sorc still feel very solid but everything else is weird. If not playing those and you wanna be doing well then likely best to play stam.

GhostofDatthaw

allan0n wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

It's an indisputable fact that Stamina builds across the board have abilities that hit harder for less cost. Stam also benefits more from the fact that melee abilities are typically stronger than ranged abilities. This really hurts Mag builds other than Templar and DK, because we don't even have a melee weapon line!

Magicka ultimates are terrible compared to Stamina. Stam builds grumble constantly about the minuscule cast time on Dawnbreaker, but any Mag build would be ecstatic if we had a Magicka Dawnbreaker. Half the time I have defensive ultimates like Temporal Guard on BOTH bars, that's how bad the offensive Magicka ults are.

It's also an indisputable fact that Magicka builds overall have much more utility, the ability to dish out amazing heals for themselves and their group members with class skills and resto line, and have much more skills that hit you from afar and hence require less effort to zerg people down with, which is all you see in cyrodiil. I've seen more magsorcs and to a lesser extent magplars than ever before so obviously yall aren't doing that bad.

Everyone just faction stacks and healing is simply too strong with how heavy handed Zos was with the dot nerf. Couple that together with the fact that that magicka players are about the only ones with reliable group heals and you have a bunch of unkillable turds who can only kill you with 200 weak aoes and magsorcs blowing you up from the back. Stamina has it's OP aspects as well likea bigger stam pool for CC break and dodge rolling but most players offset that by zerging. Rally and the new vigors self heal is also too strong with how low dmg is, but I'd say magicka is king in this meta unless you're 1v1ing or just envy the ability to quickly sprint from a keep as the unkillable magicka hordes take everything.

If you double slot Temporal Guard on anything, then you're a fool and have no one to blame but yourself. I can only assume you're a magsorc based on your name and how you always claim to be underpowered despite consistently being one of the most powerful things in the game. I'm not buying this "we have no ult choices" crap. I've mained a Stamsorc for as long as I've been playing this game, but I've played a lot of everything besides necros and magden. Please tell me what viable ults do I have that actually scale off weapon crit and related cp? There's Onslaught which is great and DB which is awkward and not worth using anymore.

Magsorcs have
Meteor - it was always worth slotting but even more so now with unblockable streak
Negate - is arguably the best ultimate in the game and it's heals and dmg scale off of spell crit and related cp. It's also significantly more helpful in this tank meta.
Atro - people that use this are pathetic but its effective at spreading people out and tanking attacks for you
Overload - this is a shadow of how op it used to be buts it's still decent even if I'd never slot it over meteor.

Then you have ults like resto, destro ult, barrier, MUH BATS, SA which I admit I've never used and Shield Wall which is good on anything stam or mag


Tldr: Magicka can attack from a distance and can heal each other which makes them king in tanky zerg meta and some people need to step outside of their comfort zones and play other classes and specs.

Tldr everything you said is sorc specific and honestly negate doesn't work vs Stam so... Yeah anyway most of those skills are guild skills and vampire and w/e which is kind of funny because that comes with give and take for class passive and other skills like resto also clog bar space and make skill selection for passives. And plus let's just think of the logic of mag resto bar and having better heals than Stam.... Kinda makes sense? Who would a dw/bow heal better than someone with a healing staff

PLUS 3/6 magclasses are more comfortable in melee magcro, temp and dk, along with magnb being a strange melee/range hybrid with sh and fear... So you're just like... Wrong

Flame_of_Hades

I loved how many people replied with "You must be playing magblade" Feels Bad Man.

Magblade has one of the best stuns in the game...... thats about it...

No burst heal, our burst is now lower than every stam build with a 2H, our sustained damage is horrible...

But hey, I can sustain all day long! with absurd investment... and still get out sustained by stam builds and magplar...

Although... I'm not sure what they could change... if they increased the healing in the slightest, it would be OP, if they increased the damage on SS it would be OP (the healing would increase).... assassins will already does amazing damage...

They might remove the cast time on incap, and change how projectiles are effected by dodge roll... and by that, I mean dodge roll should dodge any and all projectiles that would hit during the dodge animation.. as of right now, it dodges any projectiles that would hit you during the animation AND any projectiles that have been cast on you during the animation. This leaves a period of about a second where the melee build can attack the ranged player, but the ranged player can't ever hit the melee build.... This seems a bit much when you consider my abilities already hit for less than melee, even if i'm right next 2 my enemy, which is how it normally works on magblade due to incap being a melee ult..

id gladly trade a MASSIVE cost increase on invis cloak (just invis cloak) for a damage buff to cripple and the changes mentioned above...

Iskiab

Flame_of_Hades wrote: »

I loved how many people replied with "You must be playing magblade" Feels Bad Man.

Magblade has one of the best stuns in the game...... thats about it...

No burst heal, our burst is now lower than every stam build with a 2H, our sustained damage is horrible...

But hey, I can sustain all day long! with absurd investment... and still get out sustained by stam builds and magplar...

Although... I'm not sure what they could change... if they increased the healing in the slightest, it would be OP, if they increased the damage on SS it would be OP (the healing would increase).... assassins will already does amazing damage...

They might remove the cast time on incap, and change how projectiles are effected by dodge roll... and by that, I mean dodge roll should dodge any and all projectiles that would hit during the dodge animation.. as of right now, it dodges any projectiles that would hit you during the animation AND any projectiles that have been cast on you during the animation. This leaves a period of about a second where the melee build can attack the ranged player, but the ranged player can't ever hit the melee build.... This seems a bit much when you consider my abilities already hit for less than melee, even if i'm right next 2 my enemy, which is how it normally works on magblade due to incap being a melee ult..

id gladly trade a MASSIVE cost increase on invis cloak (just invis cloak) for a damage buff to cripple and the changes mentioned above...

Doubt any changes to dodge roll will happen. I’m pretty sure mag are stronger than stam this patch after playing more... if you’re a good mag class.

Even in BGs I’m seeing it, stam not supporting their team hurts and I’m noticing more wins the more mag are on my team.

Xvorg

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

- Less damage

- Less mobility

- Less sustain

- Less pressure

- Less self heals


Discuss!

It lead me to think out of he box and in the end I got something quite interesting on my mDK... hope it's not nerfend the next patch.

Valabrog

Trancestor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

The top two class in PvP right now are Magsorc and Magplar, magicka has the best access to heals right now which is really over performing due to nerfing damage and dots across the board. Complaining about mag class right now sounds like your either playing a weaker class that's not as easy as the top two or a l2p issue.

magsorc mentioned along magplar

You cant honestly think magplar is better than magsorc for solo

In BG - it is.

Valabrog

Galarthor wrote: »

Lets not forget the recent massive cost increases to defensive abilities. These hit magicka builds far harder than stamina builds as the latter can subsitute and/or complement with block and dodge, which were not hit by the same cost increase hammer. In addition to that, those two abilities can also have their cost reduced through CPs and Armor Traits, something that is not afforded to any of the magicka defensive tools. And as a nice cherry on top, stam abilities generally cost 10% less. In other words, stam builds have a built-in 5pc set bonus.

The reason give, that stam builds have to pay for break-free, block, and sprint from their primary resource pool while magicka builds only have to pay for it with their secondary resource pool is BS too. Stam builds have the LUXURY to be able to pay for these 3 abilities with their primary resource, b/c having to add to your primary resource pool in order to perform these 3 abilities does not only enable you to use these 3 abilities but also increases your damage. The same is not true if you have to add stats to your secondary resource pool as magicka builds have to do.

All of that enables stam builds to put far more bonuses / stats into weapon damage b/c they need less sustain compared with magicka builds. But it doesn't stop there. Because stam builds do not have to increase the effectiveness of dodge and block, like magicka builds have to do for shields and heals, they need even less max resources and can thus afford to put more into weapon damage and / or sustain, giving them an even greater edge over magicka builds.

But boys and girls, the fun is not over yet. Because stamina builds have significantly higher weapon damage than magicka builds can have spell damage, the former also profit significantly more from major brutality (+20% weapon damage) than the latter does from major sorcery (+20% spell damage) - this is especially true for magicka builds that use shields b/c they have to maximize max magicka for which there is no major or minor buff!

Than why do we see so many magplars, magcros, magdks and magsorcs in BGs? And a few stamdens and nbs in between. If I see more than 2 stamina chars in BG on my team, I know its usually GG for us. Range and well-timed burst - two major things which help to score kills. I a midst of melee battle you barely notice you are targeted by a ranged players and boom you are dead. If you stick to your team, its so easy to do damage without risk.

Waffennacht

If you can't go without a group, you're in a bad position.

Magnecro therefore is in a bad position.

Tbf I can't think of many classes where the mag version is better than the stam.

Trancestor

Valabrog wrote: »

Trancestor wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

JinxxND wrote: »

The top two class in PvP right now are Magsorc and Magplar, magicka has the best access to heals right now which is really over performing due to nerfing damage and dots across the board. Complaining about mag class right now sounds like your either playing a weaker class that's not as easy as the top two or a l2p issue.

magsorc mentioned along magplar

You cant honestly think magplar is better than magsorc for solo

In BG - it is.

Bg isnt solo