The floor vs the ceiling

Kolzki

This is basically an argument for why changes to sustain and the damage of various skills is just as bad for non-optimised builds and groups as it is for the top end. I'm mostly talking about pve, but I think it applies for pvp builds too for optimised builds/groups vs beginner and mid tier setups.

I'm not going to talk about ease of rotations, which are also a factor, just the basic damage formula and how recent changes work (or don't) with them. The effective damage formula is basically something like:

effective_damage = base_damage * average_crit_scaling * damage_done * damage_received_multiplier

We have four things there that multiply. We can stack heavily into all of them at the same time with optimised builds/groups. Non-optimised groups with less good gear are much less effective at stacking into these so they get a much small effective damage.

• We have lots of ways to stack into base weapon/spell damage and stam/mag from sets, enchants and racial passives.
• Commonly high crit rates and the shadow and crit damage cp stack heavily into the crit part.
• CP and new sets (read as lokkestiiz) stack heavily into damage done.
• Necro ults and new sets/set changes (vulnerbility, zen, martial knowlege) strong add to damage through damage received multipliers.

Nerfing the base damage multiplier for skills will not change the damage difference between the damage floor and ceiling, it will just scale everyone down in the same way. Nerfing sustain will require more regen for all players and will not reduce the difference between floor and ceiling either, we all just have to find a bit of sustain from somewhere. So long as we continue to get ever stronger stat bonuses and more damage done/received buffs the damage ceiling will continue to go up while those without optimal setups will stay in the same place or even get worse with attempts to lower the ceiling.

TLDR: A lot of the recent changes to reign in top end dps affect everyone equally, top end, mid tier and beginner. If the developers want to pull down the dps ceiling without affecting other players then they need to think twice about releasing crazy high max stat and buff/debuff sets and skills that let us stack heavily into everything at the same time. These things multiply and disproportionaly raise the ceiling.

zaria

Changes will hit causal end more as they are much slower to adjust as in being 1-4 months behind.
in shot they are hit way harder by the jojo meta.
Nitrogen did not work so lets try nitroglycerin, its sounds like its almost the same stuff so go.
And no belt feeding combat teams does not work either.

idk

zaria wrote: »

Changes will hit causal end more as they are much slower to adjust as in being 1-4 months behind.

And they were not quite there to start with.

Before Zos hit sustain the first time (Morrowind) casual groups already had sustain issues. I felt it when going with both training groups and more casual groups. It came down to the healers not being as comfortable with the content and rotations as more experienced raiders.

However, the difference between the floor and ceiling is more likely due to combat mechanics than anything else though it is likely more than one factor.

Zos stated they intended to raise the floor and lower the ceiling with Morrowind yet they did the opposite. We see two major changes that patch. Sustain and an increased focus on LAs. A HA easily takes care of sustain without a great drop in DPS. However, for those players that do not weave LAs and I means specifically LAs their damage would have decreased.

While ESO combat is not that complex it is more so than the simplistic single skill per GCD we see in WoW and FF type games, Zos pushing the LA over merely weaving basic attacks had the opposite effect of their stated intent that update. Zos has a tendency to not think things through (original CP design at release is great example) and in this case they kept building on that snowball since Morrowind.

ForzaRammer

You actually think zos want to reduce the skill gap? Morrowind, horn of reach and clockwork city was close in term of skill gap because you could just run heavy attack build and do pretty good, and heavy attack is exactly what zos nerfed.

rotaugen454

I’ve always wondered if the gap could be closed by a “Max DPS counted” Limit and raising damage on skills and weapons. I doubt they would implement it so it actually worked though.

Nebthet78

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I’ve always wondered if the gap could be closed by a “Max DPS counted” Limit and raising damage on skills and weapons. I doubt they would implement it so it actually worked though.

I've actually recommended that several times, but the top end game players are utterly against his.

I also feel that it was the change from a Heavy Attack Meta to the Light Attack Meta that has created the widening of the gap that can't be closed. Most players are unable to effectively light attack animation cancel, due to a number of issues and light attacks are 99% of the time seem to be what is giving 22+% of the damage or more when parses are posted. That's a lot!

Eventually ZOS will either figure it out and accept the fact they may have to cut the head off the Elite 1% of the game to make it better for the remaining 99%, or they will fail and continue to hemorrhage players.

Donny_Vito

Nebthet78 wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I’ve always wondered if the gap could be closed by a “Max DPS counted” Limit and raising damage on skills and weapons. I doubt they would implement it so it actually worked though.

I've actually recommended that several times, but the top end game players are utterly against his.

I also feel that it was the change from a Heavy Attack Meta to the Light Attack Meta that has created the widening of the gap that can't be closed. Most players are unable to effectively light attack animation cancel, due to a number of issues and light attacks are 99% of the time seem to be what is giving 22+% of the damage or more when parses are posted. That's a lot!

Eventually ZOS will either figure it out and accept the fact they may have to cut the head off the Elite 1% of the game to make it better for the remaining 99%, or they will fail and continue to hemorrhage players.

Not going to get into any of the arguments other than the top 1% elitism one. I think you are right to a certain extent, but there is one aspect that I don't think you're accounting for and that is marketing. The top players tend to be streamers and content creators (their own websites), and they bring a lot of visibility to the game through various mediums. People watch streamers, read up on their builds, and just engage in ESO while not actually playing the game (or potentially while playing). In a sense, players are still thinking about ESO even if they might not be playing. ZoS loves this, as these top players are basically providing free marketing for them. So, to limit them by capping their DPS might have a negative effect in terms of them continuing to provide free marketing through streams and personal websites. Just an aspect to keep in mind.

b95fister

Nebthet78 wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I’ve always wondered if the gap could be closed by a “Max DPS counted” Limit and raising damage on skills and weapons. I doubt they would implement it so it actually worked though.

I've actually recommended that several times, but the top end game players are utterly against his.

I say this again, the dps limit or minimum dps raise is a fools game.

I am a above average player hitting 42k on a 3mil(console). If you limit dps per person to 40k,30k. What does this do for the casuals that don’t hit 30k/40k. Nothing, nada. You have not raise the floor. Bad players will still be bad, good players will spec more into sustain and health and be even better.

Ok so let’s take the opposite approach and just buff all players dps to 30/40k. Yes even for random skills spammers and light attack bow spammers. This certainly raises the floor but there will be no sense of any accomplishment know that you could just stack into all health and just light attack your way to victory........ya know like overland content....

It’s not that elites are against capping dps for fear of not being awesome. They are afraid that we cannot help/carry/support as much as we used to.

Elitest are given the name by those that can’t play as well. Most (me included) wan to help players get better through playing the game not getting free wins by buffing the base damage.

Finally even if your random pug who only light attack’s get their dps buffed to 100k will that dps level get them outta the one-shot aoes? Will that dps level make them bash the boss to not one shot the tank? Etc......

idk

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I’ve always wondered if the gap could be closed by a “Max DPS counted” Limit and raising damage on skills and weapons. I doubt they would implement it so it actually worked though.

This would be a poor way to handle it as it reduces the benefit of being a skilled player. It would drive the skilled players away and that is also where the player base gets it's best minds for theorcrafting and figuring out how to clear content effectively. That is never good for a game.

Granted, there has always been a big difference between the top players and the floor because ESO benefits more from player skill than many MMORPGs. However, Zos increased that starting a few years ago and that part needs to be reversed.

Ash_In_My_Sujamma

Nebthet78 wrote: »

rotaugen454 wrote: »

I’ve always wondered if the gap could be closed by a “Max DPS counted” Limit and raising damage on skills and weapons. I doubt they would implement it so it actually worked though.

I've actually recommended that several times, but the top end game players are utterly against his.

I also feel that it was the change from a Heavy Attack Meta to the Light Attack Meta that has created the widening of the gap that can't be closed. Most players are unable to effectively light attack animation cancel, due to a number of issues and light attacks are 99% of the time seem to be what is giving 22+% of the damage or more when parses are posted. That's a lot!

Eventually ZOS will either figure it out and accept the fact they may have to cut the head off the Elite 1% of the game to make it better for the remaining 99%, or they will fail and continue to hemorrhage players.

Please by all means bring back the heavy attack meta. I was way happier in pvp when a bunch of afkers couldn't range kill me by just using light attacks. You do understand though that then players will be forced to use combination of skills to do damage and that might confuse some of the 99% you are talking about.
I also believe that the issue with zos hemorrhaging players is not the elite community of the game but the fact that the game itself cannot take a noob and turn him into an elite via a developing process. There is way too big of a difficulty gap from overland to group content (by that I mean that overland is flat and easy and does not prepare players for more challenging content in a proper way), the pvp mmr system in bgs is pathetic for new and solo players, open world pvp promotes faction stacking therefore it doesn't help a new player to improve and face better players in a 1vs1 situation and thus new players face a vertical wall, get discouraged and leave. Your issue is not the hight of the wall but its angle.
And to be honest with you, your idea of decapitating the top of the game and create an equal flat environment for all would not help the game at all. Zos is excellent at bringing new players in but not very good at keeping them. How will you improve that with no challenge scaling if there is no mountain high enough to climb? I say help the 99% join the 1% and make a great 100%. I tell you the 1% is craving for competition at this momment both in pve and pvp.

WrathOfInnos

Buff sets are one of the few things that makes coordinating groups interesting. Many of them do not even require skill to use effectively (Worm, Hircines, Ebon, Morag Tong, Torug’s Pact), others add a fun mini-game (Z’en’s, Martial Knowledge, Alkosh, Olorime). These sets are available to anyone willing to do a minimal amount of research and talk with teammates about who is responsible for which buffs and debuffs. It’s certainly not limited to the most elite or skilled players.

Removal of group buff sets like the old Sunderflame and Night Mother’s are some of the worst changes in the history of this game IMO. The effective removal of Master Architect and War Machine by introducing redundancy with the Lokkestiiz set is just as bad. Selfish sets are not fun, do not promote teamwork, and do not reward planning.

Rungar

i see the replacement players which zos relies on running thin these days. That's the problem with a combat system like this game has.