ZOS, why do you hate sustain so much?

SeaUnicorn

In previous patch notes sustain got nerfed big time, and now you nerf one of the staple sustain sets, why?
The feedback from the community that we don't want sustain challenges in a fast paced ESO combat was pretty obvious and abundant. Why do you not listen to your player base again?!
This patch is equivalent to Nerfmire and it's the most hated patch across the board. Why do you insist on repeating mistakes of the past...

Suryoyo

How would you fix perfs and lag ? eh ?
One quick possible solution is to prevent people from spamming indefinitely their skills, less animation, less lag., so here we are sadly,
The vast majority of the player base hate heavy attack though...

hakan

it all started with Morrowind...

red_emu

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha....

ZOS isn't even half way through with sustain Nerfs! This is a tiny tiny adjustment from what is planned

Shantu

Hey, getting people to abandon combat is a great way to improve server performance.

Nestor

Games should always be about tradeoffs. Sustain is the counter to attack power over time.

J2JMC

Wait until they take away CP

BattleAxe

High dot damage doesn’t seem so bad now does it? Dots last a good duration helped with sustain but no thanx to complaints cuz ppl didn’t want to try learning counters we got the bs show of an update. Worse still multiple posts I’ve seen complaining about stone fist/giant to costly funky animation or just that it’s ranged yet they are still pushing this on the dk class.

I have really tried not to join the crowd here but I may very well join and protest with my wallet.

SeaUnicorn

BattleAxe wrote: »

High dot damage doesn’t seem so bad now does it? Dots last a good duration helped with sustain but no thanx to complaints cuz ppl didn’t want to try learning counters we got the bs show of an update. Worse still multiple posts I’ve seen complaining about stone fist/giant to costly funky animation or just that it’s ranged yet they are still pushing this on the dk class.

I have really tried not to join the crowd here but I may very well join and protest with my wallet.

As much as my rotation was boring, I did enjoy DOT benefits, for example being able to dot couple targets and see them melt over time. I guess we can't have nice things because of nerfherders

BattleAxe

slofwnd wrote: »

BattleAxe wrote: »

High dot damage doesn’t seem so bad now does it? Dots last a good duration helped with sustain but no thanx to complaints cuz ppl didn’t want to try learning counters we got the bs show of an update. Worse still multiple posts I’ve seen complaining about stone fist/giant to costly funky animation or just that it’s ranged yet they are still pushing this on the dk class.

I have really tried not to join the crowd here but I may very well join and protest with my wallet.

As much as my rotation was boring, I did enjoy DOT benefits, for example being able to dot couple targets and see them melt over time. I guess we can't have nice things because of nerfherders

Agreed 9000x the dot nerf would never been needed if firstly resolving vigor went live as they originally posted secondly purge could have recieved a massive buff in number of effects purged or a huge drop in cost to make it very usable outside of dedicated healers

LiquidPony

Nestor wrote: »

Games should always be about tradeoffs. Sustain is the counter to attack power over time.

Games should be about having fun, actually. ZOS seems to have lost sight of that somewhere along the line.

Nerftheforums

Damage has never been so high in this game. Just give up some of it to get your sustain :')

Zatox

You can sustain in PVE with no regen glyphs or heavy attacks in your rotation? Time to sustain nerf. Good decision

JimmyJuJu

Remember the Magician (mag cost reduction) and Warlord (stam cost reduction) passives in the Champion tree? Those were removed well over 2 years ago and sustain has been an issue ever since.

Was that Morrowind? I can't keep track of the nerf/buff/nerf train.

Grandma

I feel like they're focusing so much on parses and hardcore players because they're the only ones who really use the PTS, the people who have mastered/found ways around sustain, so they just.. keep nerfing it because it's what they see. but on live people are already struggling with sustain unless you're a sustain class + set. it's sad.

BattleAxe

Grandma wrote: »

I feel like they're focusing so much on parses and hardcore players because they're the only ones who really use the PTS, the people who have mastered/found ways around sustain, so they just.. keep nerfing it because it's what they see. but on live people are already struggling with sustain unless you're a sustain class + set. it's sad.

I think part of the problem no offense is most of the class reps fall into that category.

MehrunesFlagon

Zatox wrote: »

You can sustain in PVE with no regen glyphs or heavy attacks in your rotation? Time to sustain nerf. Good decision

No it's not.As far as I'm concerned heavy attacks should not even exist.

Galarthor

Nestor wrote: »

Games should always be about tradeoffs. Sustain is the counter to attack power over time.

Too bad it doesn't work this way in ESO - at least for magicka builds and to a lesser degree for stam builds. To outlast your opponent you have to survive your opponent. But with your defensive potency (read: strength of heals and shields) directly linked to your offensive stats the sustain build simply does not capability to outlast the attack power build.

For stam builds that's a somewhat different story as dodge roll and block are percentage based mitigation at fixed cost and do not require any scaling of their effectiveness. Thus you can build for outlasting your opponent. Though even here, with the current tank / heavy armor meta, it stands to question whether there is any point in outlasting your opponent when you cannot kill them afterwards before they regain the resources.

idk

For the most part Zos traded CDs on skills for resource management. Their words, not mine.

vesselwiththepestle

If it even were worth it to build for sustain!

as things are you lose to much by going Bosmer instead of Orc or recovery instead of damage enchants.

Recovery stats from race passive and jewelry enchant and invigorating trait should be increased by 50%.

When I've got the choice between 258 dAmage or recovery I always end doing more damage with he damage bonus even with bad sustain. That's the problem. If I could lose 258 dAmage but gain 387 recovery this might be more balanced.

MartiniDaniels

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

If it even were worth it to build for sustain!

as things are you lose to much by going Bosmer instead of Orc or recovery instead of damage enchants.

Recovery stats from race passive and jewelry enchant and invigorating trait should be increased by 50%.

When I've got the choice between 258 dAmage or recovery I always end doing more damage with he damage bonus even with bad sustain. That's the problem. If I could lose 258 dAmage but gain 387 recovery this might be more balanced.

This will be wildly imbalanced in PVP. In PVE yes, recovery is undesirable stat on sets, and damage >> sustain. So this changes may be an attempt to address fact that sustain sets are trash sets. Really, what sustain sets are popular? shacklebreaker in PVP, false god and vicious ophidian in VMA? and all 3 are not pure sustain sets, they are damage/sustain and with high stat density. Ok, also bone pirate and bright throat, but they also have high stat density.

SeaUnicorn

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Damage has never been so high in this game. Just give up some of it to get your sustain :')

Damage requirements to clear content also has never been so high, yet it doesn't get nerf (cough eternal servant cough)

MehrunesFlagon

slofwnd wrote: »

Nerftheforums wrote: »

Damage has never been so high in this game. Just give up some of it to get your sustain :')

Damage requirements to clear content also has never been so high, yet it doesn't get nerf (cough eternal servant cough)

Doesn't make sense.

Darkenarlol

they can't just remove LA waving (dunno why) which actually

could be equal to their current ~20-25% DPS nerf without any other changes.


so... they are just making waving impossible as much as

they can and turn rotations to skill > heavy attack> skill > ha


not gonna be surprised if more cast time skills will show up soon

Jodynn

Sustain is important, it is the life substance of combat via skills giving fluid animations, desired combat, and fun.

Here are my arguments as to why the current system is flawed

resource glyphs/cost reduction glyphs
- No one wants to deal less damage if possible
- Current end game content damage in PvE is already severally down by around 80% this patch you would be further reducing it thus making some content unachievable.

heavy attacks
- If you want a heavy attack mechanic make it worth it or give it a different function completely, it's current design is flawed around 3 second delay of dullness for staves and are only really viable in PvP, thus making PvE feel dead weight and ignored.
- Spell symmetry takes up a useful bar-space, aka, a shield or heal for life, also it hurts you thus making a shield even more needed.
- Spell symmetry is only for Magicka characters.

Increase of cost on abilities
- Whatever audit you are using, I think it must overlook actual gameplay and data and is far from accurate, AoE will cost way too much at 5k.
- Then you also increase cost of other things, thus making the outlook even more bleak.

As your usual fashion you swung the hammer and neglected listening to people who actually play your game, giving valuable data and test substance, which would allow you to craft something much more deftly.

GrimTheReaper45

Because zos has this backwards notion that build diversity is forcing players to not spec all into damage, when realistically were only ever going to spec into sustain as much as we need. When they should be giving is more playstyles instead of forcing us into a super specific build to function as a working build.

Like yall remember when sustain sets were for WHEN YOU WANTED TO BUILD FOR A SPECIFIC BUILD THAT NEEDED HIGH SUSTAIN, instead of them just being a default factor in every build. That was nice

Dogzey

Being able to infinitely sustain in PvP is the reason 100%. Sustaining in PvE and the fluid gameplay is the best part about this game so if they are nerfing it over PvE I would really question do they know their game at all.

coradaelu

slofwnd wrote: »

In previous patch notes sustain got nerfed big time, and now you nerf one of the staple sustain sets, why?
The feedback from the community that we don't want sustain challenges in a fast paced ESO combat was pretty obvious and abundant. Why do you not listen to your player base again?!
This patch is equivalent to Nerfmire and it's the most hated patch across the board. Why do you insist on repeating mistakes of the past...

Wait, which Sustain set were nerfed this time?

mague

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

If it even were worth it to build for sustain!

as things are you lose to much by going Bosmer instead of Orc or recovery instead of damage enchants.

Recovery stats from race passive and jewelry enchant and invigorating trait should be increased by 50%.

When I've got the choice between 258 dAmage or recovery I always end doing more damage with he damage bonus even with bad sustain. That's the problem. If I could lose 258 dAmage but gain 387 recovery this might be more balanced.

Infused jewels + Glyph of reduced cost is 919 reduced cost with Kuta and epic jewels. Turns Dizzy from 2700 to 1781.

b95fister

mague wrote: »

vesselwiththepestle wrote: »

If it even were worth it to build for sustain!

as things are you lose to much by going Bosmer instead of Orc or recovery instead of damage enchants.

Recovery stats from race passive and jewelry enchant and invigorating trait should be increased by 50%.

When I've got the choice between 258 dAmage or recovery I always end doing more damage with he damage bonus even with bad sustain. That's the problem. If I could lose 258 dAmage but gain 387 recovery this might be more balanced.

Infused jewels + Glyph of reduced cost is 919 reduced cost with Kuta and epic jewels. Turns Dizzy from 2700 to 1781.

Lol. It also turns Dizzy damage to 1781 as well. Both are equally useless.

Szende

Sacrafice some dmg or resistance for sustain... damn, be tanky have huge dmg and brutal sustain at same time... where is the fun in that?