Is Vivec a monster? (video)

StabbityDoom

A friend of mine, @agenderfox, presented an amazing sculpture build in response to the request for a housing build of a monster. In it, they made a fascinating statement about whether Vivec is a monster. For more detail, please see my video at this point: https://twitch.tv/videos/494604842?t=54m00s

You don't have to watch the whole thing, however, there's discussion on it all the way to the end. Corrections on lore are welcome.

Quote: "Don't forget, he has a sexual relationship with Molag Bal. How good could you possibly be when you have a sexual relationship with Molag Bal?"

Froil

He also killed his children with Molag Bal...

Yeah I would say Vivec's a real monster. Holding his people hostage with Baar Dau; "I would have done so myself if I wanted, silly Hortator. I shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction." After the events of ESO's Morrowind, he still keeps it there, even when he knows his power is weakening in TESIII Morrowind, he still leaves it there. Before the Nerevarine destroys the heart, I'm sure Vivec still has the power to destroy it, since he can still keep it afloat. And as he was complicit in the killing of his friend, Nerevar, to obtain the power of the Heart of Lorkhan.

Regarding why the statuette of Vile is there is because, after Vivec's disappearance and Baar Dau's descent starts again, the Dunmer people looked for a way to keep it from crashing into Vvardenfell. Someone made a pact with Vile, who gave them a machine, the Ingenium, that was able to keep Baar Dau back, but at the cost of people's souls, meaning it needed sacrifices. If you want to know more, read the real books "The Infernal City" and "Lord of Souls".

StabbityDoom

Froil wrote: »

He also killed his children with Molag Bal...

Yeah I would say Vivec's a real monster. Holding his people hostage with Baar Dau; "I would have done so myself if I wanted, silly Hortator. I shall keep it there with its last intention intact, so that if the love of the people of this city for me ever disappear, so shall the power that holds back their destruction." After the events of ESO's Morrowind, he still keeps it there, even when he knows his power is weakening in TESIII Morrowind, he still leaves it there. Before the Nerevarine destroys the heart, I'm sure Vivec still has the power to destroy it, since he can still keep it afloat. And as he was complicit in the killing of his friend, Nerevar, to obtain the power of the Heart of Lorkhan.

Regarding why the statuette of Vile is there is because, after Vivec's disappearance and Baar Dau's descent starts again, the Dunmer people looked for a way to keep it from crashing into Vvardenfell. Someone made a pact with Vile, who gave them a machine, the Ingenium, that was able to keep Baar Dau back, but at the cost of people's souls, meaning it needed sacrifices. If you want to know more, read the real books "The Infernal City" and "Lord of Souls".

Awesome! thank you for the explanation of vile, I never knew that.

Xaramasa

Vivec is many things. In the same way he portrays himself as a dual entity, half-chimer and half-dunmer, it wouldn't be out of character for him to act monstrous to contrast with his benevolence. His anticipation was Mephala after all, who in some respects, is more monstrous and sinister than Molag Bal.

Actually, this issue on whether Vivec is as benevolent as he portrays himself to be is discussed in an existing lorebook: Vivec and Mephala.

Two quotes from the book:

The Dunmer do not envision Lord Vivec as a creature of murder, sex, and secrets. Rather, they conceive of Lord Vivec as benevolent king, guardian warrior, poet-artist. But, at the same time, unconsciously, they accept the notion of darker, hidden currents beneath Vivec's benevolent aspects.

And this one:

The public face of Vivec is benign, sensitive, compassionate, and protective of his followers. At the same time, the Dunmer seem irrationally comfortable with the hidden aspects of Vivec, the darker components of violence, lust, and conspiracy associated the more primitive and ruthless impulses of the Anticipations.

So, yes, you are correct. Vivec is a monster, but he is also benevolent. You have to remember that while they may be false gods in the eyes of their detractors, they are living gods; specifically, daedric gods, so don't put it past Vivec to act in a way that may seem malevolent.

TheRealPotoroo

Monster or not, Vivec has to be the most pompous NPC in the game.

zaria

Technically he is probably an monster, not an Dunmer npc

mague

Xaramasa wrote: »

Vivec is many things. In the same way he portrays himself as a dual entity, half-chimer and half-dunmer, it wouldn't be out of character for him to act monstrous to contrast with his benevolence. His anticipation was Mephala after all, who in some respects, is more monstrous and sinister than Molag Bal.

Actually, this issue on whether Vivec is as benevolent as he portrays himself to be is discussed in an existing lorebook: Vivec and Mephala.

Two quotes from the book:

The Dunmer do not envision Lord Vivec as a creature of murder, sex, and secrets. Rather, they conceive of Lord Vivec as benevolent king, guardian warrior, poet-artist. But, at the same time, unconsciously, they accept the notion of darker, hidden currents beneath Vivec's benevolent aspects.

And this one:

The public face of Vivec is benign, sensitive, compassionate, and protective of his followers. At the same time, the Dunmer seem irrationally comfortable with the hidden aspects of Vivec, the darker components of violence, lust, and conspiracy associated the more primitive and ruthless impulses of the Anticipations.

So, yes, you are correct. Vivec is a monster, but he is also benevolent. You have to remember that while they may be false gods in the eyes of their detractors, they are living gods; specifically, daedric gods, so don't put it past Vivec to act in a way that may seem malevolent.

The whole tribunal is not bad. But they bear the guilt of murder and thats the cause of their evilness. The pressure makes them evil. They are sick so to speak.

rotaugen454

Of the three, Sotha Sil seems the most concerned about “his” people. He is cold over individual deaths but is looking at the big picture. The other two seem very full of themselves. Vivec could have spared the Dunmer from a disaster but preferred to have worshippers who were hostages to his “benevolence”.

Veles

Donny_Vito

Veles wrote: »

"Is this it priest, the Pope's new army, a few crusty *** and a hand full of rag tags?"

Great movie.

Edit: To clarify, the quote isn't associated to that particular shot, but it's my favorite line in the movie.

SpacemanSpiff1

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

Monster or not, Vivec has to be the most pompous NPC in the game.

He'll have to fight Vanus Galerion for that title.

VaranisArano

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

Monster or not, Vivec has to be the most pompous NPC in the game.

He'll have to fight Vanus Galerion for that title.

It's pretty hilarious to consider that Vanus Galerion and Mannimarco were basically college roommates. Mannimarco is another one who is best described by the words of Abnur Tharn: "I find it hilarious that Mannimarco chose such a massive projected appearance. He's obviously overcompensating for something."

rotaugen454

VaranisArano wrote: »

SpacemanSpiff1 wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

Monster or not, Vivec has to be the most pompous NPC in the game.

He'll have to fight Vanus Galerion for that title.

It's pretty hilarious to consider that Vanus Galerion and Mannimarco were basically college roommates. Mannimarco is another one who is best described by the words of Abnur Tharn: "I find it hilarious that Mannimarco chose such a massive projected appearance. He's obviously overcompensating for something."

Watching Vanus and The Artificer rip on each other was pretty funny too. Arch mages and their egos...

Jusey1

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Of the three, Sotha Sil seems the most concerned about “his” people. He is cold over individual deaths but is looking at the big picture. The other two seem very full of themselves. Vivec could have spared the Dunmer from a disaster but preferred to have worshippers who were hostages to his “benevolence”.

I personally agree with this. While Alma is easily the worst of the three and you can see hints of her madness in ESO even... I do think Sotha Sil is the best of the three, especially after finally talking to him for the first time in the whole series in the Clockwork City DLC for ESO. He's a natural introvert with a lot of power and because of that, he doesn't really care too much about the fame, glory, etc that the other two love to bathe in. Instead, he focuses on his science and work while also still generally caring for his people and the little world he has created.

Though, I do like Vivec and I do think he does care for his people but he has done many many insane things as well as risking the lives of his people just to show off his power. The meteor above Vivec City should've been destroyed, not held.

reoskit

Jusey1 wrote: »

He's a natural introvert

Reminded me of this art someone made for the CWC anniversary event and how Sotha Sil would feel about the onslaught of visitors.



Source

Loves_guars

Yes, of course, and many other things. Like Sotha said, he wants to be everyone. So you can't quite define him, very interesting. Morrowind best lore.

RaddlemanNumber7

Vivec is certainly a monster, very much like a Daedric Prince, but it doesn't really become apparent to our heroes in ESO. It's not really relevant to the story. The essential role of the Vestige in the Second Era is to make sure Vivec is still around to suffer the self-inflicted doom we all know will be his in the Third. Good job.

The only thing really amiss that I noticed in ESO was some dialogue between citizens of Vivec City once the ESO crisis is over. The dialogue makes it clear that, when he has it, Vivec uses his god-like power to affect the minds of the people. Their love is forced when it is not freely given. Just what you'd expect from someone who effectively stole the role of "God of ***" from Molag Bal, if only our heroes knew it.

Vivec's greatest evil is to attempt by violence that which can only truly be achieved by love. The murder of Nerevar is Vivec's first significant step on the path towards transcendence. The journey cannot end well. (In contrast, Lorkhan's first step is to win the love of Kynareth).

I've always thought of Vivec's "children" as manifest metaphors for aspects of his personal adversary, met upon the pilgrim's path. The way he fails to deal with them is his most spectacular and telling failure.

Because he is a villain Vivec will always fall short of his mark. I have long wondered if Vivec's name itself might have been chosen by the writers as a symbol of his failure, always one letter short of viveka (a Pali/Sanskrit word - look it up. I find it pops up quite a lot in internet search results for "Vivec").

Xaramasa

The whole tribunal is not bad. But they bear the guilt of murder and thats the cause of their evilness. The pressure makes them evil. They are sick so to speak.

All of them are coping in their own way for their murder of Nerevar; Sotha Sil quietly grieves but is also sees his death as necessary because it ushered a golden age for the Dunmer, but he understands he never had a choice because of his views on determinism and how he is simply a prison to time and circumstance.

Vivec weaved Nerevar into his personal mythos. One one part, he's obviously attempting to protect his benevolent image by making him a wise and heroic mentor-figure to the paragon that is Nerevar. On the other hand, he lives inside his mythos and this is perhaps one way for him to cope and the only way he can have conversations with his deceased captain.

Almalexia is easily the worst since she doesn't feel any remorse at all for the death of Nerevar. Even before she goes utterly mad, she's very comfortable with playing the role of the benevolent mother goddess while her dead husband is a mere saint - an person that elevates her godhood further. Perhaps this is how she copes but it benefits only herself.

Either way, it's important to remember that the Red Moment was a Dragon Break, so all versions of what transpired between the Dwemer, the Chimer, and the Tribunal are all true.

It is true that Nerevar was murdered by the Tribunal. It is also true that Nerevar died fighting his retainer, Voryn Dagoth, and succumbed to his wounds. It is also true that Nerevar fought a reincarnated Shor on Red Mountain, and through guile and trickery, wounded the god and banished him again only to die from his wounds. Finally, it is true that while The Tribunal started out as mortal chimer who ascended into gods, the Red Moment made it so that the Tribunal were always gods to begin with.

Varkal2112

Vivec is AMARANTH, Vivec is the world. Love is under his will only.

RaddlemanNumber7

Varkal2112 wrote: »

Vivec is AMARANTH, Vivec is the world. Love is under his will only.

A set of megalomaniac delusions any deranged super-villain would be proud of. No wonder Vivec attracted the attention of Sheogorath

Vanos444

Seriously, the Dunmer have more interesting lore compared to other races. I wish TES 3 Remaster was in the works

Witar

Vivec always was and still is machiavellian character with means that justify the ends. Reaching heaven through violence, all that good stuff we love morrowind for.

Aigym_Hlervu

That is what I was saying it here about. You have this thread doubled in two sections? Monster, villain.. Vivec is essential, he must stay powerful until 3E 427 at any cost which turned out not so huge as it could be. There is no other history with a mortal Vivec loyal to Nerevar. His more than 3500 year history has already been written (unlike the one of, say, Stormcloaks) and is not subject to any revision. It is absolutely irrelevant if he's a hero or a monster - he was an essential link in the chain of events to save Tamriel. It's a very simplistic way to judge that Good-Evil. And it's pointless to offend him - he has already played his role and proved all his actions (Foul Murder, oath breaking, Baar Dau, a police state and etc.) were absolutely correct and appropriate. Victory for the Three.