Is Vivec a monster? (video)

StabbityDoom

A friend of mine, @agenderfox, presented an amazing sculpture build in response to the request for a housing build of a monster. In it, they made a fascinating statement about whether Vivec is a monster. For more detail, please see my video at this point: https://twitch.tv/videos/494604842?t=54m00s

You don't have to watch the whole thing, however, there's discussion on it all the way to the end. Corrections on lore are welcome.

Quote: "Don't forget, he has a sexual relationship with Molag Bal. How good could you possibly be when you have a sexual relationship with Molag Bal?"

FakeFox

It is similar to absolutist rulers in our real history. Give Louis XIV a live span of thousand years and unrivaled power and see what happens.

Aigym_Hlervu

A monster.. I always ask those Tribunal haters and especially Vivec haters several questions. Ok, let's say he's a monster, a false god, whatever. You want him dead, banished, stripped off his godhood or something? In which period of time you want him cast out - before he became a god or after it, before he murdered Nerevar, before the fall of Baar Dau or maybe some other time? If he's dead who's going to fight off Dagoth Ur who became a god irrespectively of Vivec's actions (I remind those Foul murder and Azura's curse events started after Nerevar stroke Voryn down)? Who's going to build the Ghostfence to contain those land stalking blight spreading ash monsters? Who's going to instruct the Nerevarine on what Dagoth Ur is, how exactly to destroy him, how exactly to use Kagrenac's Tools, where to find those Tools and in fact to tell they actually exist?

Without Vivec Dagoth Ur wakes up in 2E 882 and starts (do you remember his plans on Tamriel?) to ravage Morrowind and the entire Tamriel with Blight, hordes of ash monsters and a machine of an unstoppable conquest (Akulakhan of his own construction or Numidium which seemingly was kept safe all its post Dwemer history by Vivec until he traded it to Tiber Septim) fueled by the most powerful energy source on Nirn - the Heart of Lorkhan. How do you see the history of Tamriel without such an essential link in a chain as Vivec? Do you see those battles between Dagoth Ur's mindless monsters versus Mehrunes Dagon, Alduin and others without sentient people alive? I think it would be irrelevant of who wins the deathmatch. Vivec's history isn't uncertain, it has already been written, we know the overarching goal of his more than 3 500 year existence, thus we know he must stay powerful at any cost.

Police state, Baar Dau, foul murder, ancient treachery, whatever - every his sin redeems at the moment he sends off the Nerevarine to kill the Sharmat. Do whatever you like to him after that if your hand still lifts against him. Sometimes it is too little to have a Hero for an Event to happen. All I read and hear are those "He's a false god!", "He's a murderer and a tyrant!" accusations but not a single acknowledgemet of a former wrongness regarding the views on that great NPC ever created in the Elder Scrolls universe.

Ajaxandriel

well ...kind of depends what you call a monster, I'd say.
Physical appearance? Behaviour? Abilities? by some aspects Vivec is a monster, by many others he's not.

StabbityDoom wrote: »

Quote: "Don't forget, he has a sexual relationship with Molag Bal. How good could you possibly be when you have a sexual relationship with Molag Bal?"

He claimed he had.
(He actually had not - he's a poet-god after all. He builds myths and first of all, his own myth.)

Lenithriel

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

A monster.. I always ask those Tribunal haters and especially Vivec haters several questions. Ok, let's say he's a monster, a false god, whatever. You want him dead, banished, stripped off his godhood or something? In which period of time you want him cast out - before he became a god or after it, before he murdered Nerevar, before the fall of Baar Dau or maybe some other time? If he's dead who's going to fight off Dagoth Ur who became a god irrespectively of Vivec's actions (I remind those Foul murder and Azura's curse events started after Nerevar stroke Voryn down)? Who's going to build the Ghostfence to contain those land stalking blight spreading ash monsters? Who's going to instruct the Nerevarine on what Dagoth Ur is, how exactly to destroy him, how exactly to use Kagrenac's Tools, where to find those Tools and in fact to tell they actually exist?

Without Vivec Dagoth Ur wakes up in 2E 882 and starts (do you remember his plans on Tamriel?) to ravage Morrowind and the entire Tamriel with Blight, hordes of ash monsters and a machine of an unstoppable conquest (Akulakhan of his own construction or Numidium which seemingly was kept safe all its post Dwemer history by Vivec until he traded it to Tiber Septim) fueled by the most powerful energy source on Nirn - the Heart of Lorkhan. How do you see the history of Tamriel without such an essential link in a chain as Vivec? Do you see those battles between Dagoth Ur's mindless monsters versus Mehrunes Dagon, Alduin and others without sentient people alive? I think it would be irrelevant of who wins the deathmatch. Vivec's history isn't uncertain, it has already been written, we know the overarching goal of his more than 3 500 year existence, thus we know he must stay powerful at any cost.

Police state, Baar Dau, foul murder, ancient treachery, whatever - every his sin redeems at the moment he sends off the Nerevarine to kill the Sharmat. Do whatever you like to him after that if your hand still lifts against him. Sometimes it is too little to have a Hero for an Event to happen. All I read and hear are those "He's a false god!", "He's a murderer and a tyrant!" accusations but not a single acknowledgemet of a former wrongness regarding the views on that great NPC ever created in the Elder Scrolls universe.

We all know the Tribunal are false gods. All they did was harness power that already existed. I don't think they deserved to die, though, even if the accusations are true that they did indeed betray and kill their great leader and friend Nerevar. The Ashlanders even had someone living among them who was at the battle, who gave his account to back up this theory. Also, if this is true, one could argue that if they hadn't killed him, all of the issues with Dagoth Ur wouldn't have even happened, as they would've still had Nerevar to help take care of it like he already tried to do before he died, therefore making your argument as to how great Vivec was for doing all those things invalid, as all he was doing was cleaning up the mess they theoretically caused by being power hungry and ignoring the bigger picture. But I digress.

Though I don't feel like they deserve to be killed, I do personally believe they should be killed in the 3rd era after they have accomplished what they needed to and then became a huge danger to everyone. Almalexia was absolutely insane in the 3rd era and possibly before that, Sotha Sil did nothing but stay in his Clockwork City working on his inventions, and those were clearly dangerous as well. Evidence for both of these are found in the Tribunal expansion of TES III: Morrowind. Vivec was the only one not blatantly using his power to destroy lives, or create things capable of destroying lives. But he was also aware of how undeserving of that power he was, how it was starting to fade, and how he could feel his time nearing its end. Another point I would like to make is how they didn't even need to pose as gods in the first place. All of the good they did could have been done regardless of how many people worshiped them. You can't sit here and tell me they are justified and good in any way for not only betraying their leader and friend by using the tools when they were strictly forbidden to, THEN posing as gods for 2 whole eras so people would worship them. They were never meant to have that power, no matter what "good" they tried to do to make up for being so selfishly power hungry. How many lives were lost simply due to people being killed in the name of the Tribunal? An entire province rebuilt their entire existence around these three. And they KNEW this. They WANTED this to happen. All because they wanted to lord over people unjustly.

Aigym_Hlervu

Lenithriel wrote: »

Though I don't feel like they deserve to be killed, I do personally believe they should be killed in the 3rd era after they have accomplished what they needed to and then became a huge danger to everyone.

Yes, that's exactly the point I've meant. False gods, true gods, good or evil - they must stay powerful until a certain point of time. Everyone decides himself what to do with them after it. I spared Vivec in the 3rd Era (otherwise Baar Dau could fall instantly in that 3E 427 instead of 4E 5, I think. ESO has shown us what happens if Vivec's nearly gone), but someone else could have killed him. That's completely another story and the matter of a certain player choice.

Lenithriel

I agree, it was nice to have Vivec hold up Baar Dau, however he should have known that by not getting rid of it somehow he was only delaying the inevitable. And my point still stands that regardless of how much power they were able to acquire, they didn't need to pose as gods in the first place and lord over people. In all these games we are able to use magic to become literally invincible, but you don't see our characters becoming some god wannabe.

Aigym_Hlervu

Well, that is a matter of a personal attitude towards him, @Lenithriel. A matter of tastes and, as you know, tastes differ . I also ask myself of why didn't the locals even try to evacuate, why didn't Vivec throw Baar Dau back after he had dispatched the Nerevarine and had realized he was doomed. There are many questions but we won't have a certain answer free of personal attitude towards Vivec. Tastes really differ. I'm glad we've agreed Vivec was essential until a certain point of time - that's the main thing. Thank you!

Lenithriel

I think you're kind of missing my point though. He was only essential because of the issues that arose from the Tribunal's initial mistakes. If they hadn't messed up and been so greedy, a lot of bad things that they had to try to handle wouldn't have even happened. The fact that he posed as a god allowed the people to put too much faith in him when they could have been putting faith in someone more deserving.

Aigym_Hlervu

Lenithriel wrote: »

I think you're kind of missing my point though. He was only essential because of the issues that arose from the Tribunal's initial mistakes. If they hadn't messed up and been so greedy, a lot of bad things that they had to try to handle wouldn't have even happened. The fact that he posed as a god allowed the people to put too much faith in him when they could have been putting faith in someone more deserving.

Ahh, that's what you mean.. Then read again my post there, because you've also missed my point there. I see now the point where you begin to be in error. Vivec was essential only because Dagoth Ur resurrected himself after Nerevar killed him. Those events were the crucial juncture happened irrespectively of the Tribunals actions. If the Tribunal "hadn't messed" after those events, the world'd die. Thus, as I've already written it, he has done no actual mistakes, all his actions combined with the actions of others like the Nerevarine finally brought salvation to Tamriel. There is no other reality we know about where Vivec acts differently but still stays that essential part of the events chain he actually is and plays his crucial role.

Thus discussing his morality while we know his full story is wrong and pointless. Though judging his actions after those 3E 427 events is possible but still turns into a speculation due to the lack of certain information. Thus those "If they hadn't messed up..." and on going thoughts is just a "what if" speculation. I'm not intended to discuss it, sorry . If you still disagree, please, read my posts again because I seem to write all the same I've already written using other words only. Also, check the lore to refresh the chronology of the events if you need it, please. Thank you for your insight.