Dear PvP Developers, An Idea of How to Attract More Players to Cyrodil & Battlegrounds...

beadabow

I imagine this isn't a new idea, but thought I'd bring it up. As an endgame player, I lost interest in Cyrodil and focus mainly on the PvE aspects of the game- primarily because PvE is about 75% of the content. Though I enjoy playing with other players in the alliance wars, the rewards are somewhat *** hum. Most of the gear is, understandably, directed at PvP play. I also realize that much of the reward weapons and armor function well in both PvP and PvE applications (Spell Strategist and Deadly Strikes sets for example). If, however, there were some sets that were considered Best in Slot (BiS), or comparable to Best in Slot for PvE applications, I get the feeling there would be a stampede of PvE players into the battlefields. Some PvP players would welcome this, others would not.

New sets do not necessarily need to be introduced into the game, just rehash some of the existing sets, as has been done before. I think the argument against any changes would state that some of the sets are OP as they stand. But consider changing sets (Like Cyrodil's Light, Ward, or whatever suits you) to not only function really well in PvE settings, but to be comparable to Relequen's, Lokkestiiz's, False God, and other trial gear available only through grueling PvP play. In fact, throw a trial into Cyrodil, but make it accessible only through PvP play (can't port in)! Make Pvp play the only way to get the gear. Take your time on it, make it great. I know I would pull out the old war storage chest and dust off the armor for a chance to obtain it. Oh, and make the gear bind on equip, so the items can't be placed in the guild stores. They should only be obtainable by playing in PvP settings.

I'm sure people will say, White Gold Tower and Imperial City Prison are two examples of what I am talking about. But the sets in there, though very good, still aren't as good as some of the existing PvE sets (arguable, I know). I hope this idea will be taken, at least in part, under consideration by the development team. Thoughts, comments, suggestions, ideas, criticisms welcome.

VaranisArano

I think that just fixing the lag, bugs, and persistent performance issues would do wonders to draw players back to Cyrodiil.

Drdeath20

Seperate pre made que's and solo que

Dawnblade

The reason I don't play PVP has little to do with the rewards, I don't play because I don't enjoy it.

If you want me to quit the game entirely, lock BIS or required items for PVE behind PVP.

#Keepthemseparated

beadabow

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think that just fixing the lag, bugs, and persistent performance issues would do wonders to draw players back to Cyrodiil.

I agree 100%, and I know the developers have informed us (the player community), performance issues in PvP environs are a huge focus for them in the coming months/year. I thought I'd throw this idea out there; though, as I said in the opening, I don't think it's a new idea.

beadabow

Dawnblade wrote: »

The reason I don't play PVP is not because I don't like the rewards, I don't play because I don't enjoy it.

If you want me to quit the game entirely, lock BIS or required items for PVE behind PVP.

#Keepthemseparated

I honestly did not think about your perspective, thank you for bringing this to light. It would present a problem for the members of the community that do not enjoy PvP to lock BIS PvE items in PvP environments.

technohic

I dont think luring PVEers into PVP for BIS sets is a good idea, unless I misunderstood what you meant.

I really think performance is issue number 1. I'm having a hard time logging in because I prefer Cyrodiil type PVP over battlegrounds and its the only reason I came to ESO. A lot of games have the canned matches and complaining about premades, with calls for solo queues and all. Not a lot out there for a persistent RvR. Only problem is, once you start feeling like you can play somewhat decent, it gets really old feeling like you win or lose or draw based on how the lag favored who. It already took a lot of putting up with it to get to that point being a noob and blasted in seconds not knowing what hit you partially because being bad, but also because if macroslicing, lag, and health desyncs.

Darsaga

The flaw with this is that PvE people will riot if any gear for PvE is locked behind PvP. The PvP guys are used to it and it actually the common route for most MMOs so kickback is far less extreme. Like others mentioned if performance was at least enjoyable like it was 2 years ago people would come back. It wasn’t great then but it was at least tolerable.

As far as getting more traffic to PvP a redesign to the map and more strategic capture points would help. The biggest help besides performance would be less casual design like around Morrowind release. Obviously proc set nerfs and heavy armor nerfs would need to stay in place, but the viable build variety back then was much more attractive. All things slowing the flow of combat need serious reworks, like protection stacking. It needs to have a large overall reduction in total percentage. Not nerf the uptime on the sets or skills that provide it.

Something to discourage empty keep farming needs to be done as well. The majority of people that enjoy PvP would actually play if it was more rewarding. The people doing this I doubt would quit because that is seriously the most boring thing in the game and they literally do it for 8+ hour sessions.

I mean just look at the population of PvP over the years as it becomes more casual friendly. It has been at a constant decline. That is not a coincidence or effect of an aging game. It’s because PvP is lazy and not engaging anymore. Also no design or gameplay change in 5 years. Adding outposts and destructible bridges isn’t what people expect when they think map or gameplay change.

I could go on and on about little changes that would breathe life back into PvP but it always falls on deaf ears.

Joy_Division

People aren;t going to PvP if the combat isn;t fun. And the fun factor in PvP has consistently and constantly declined because ZOS thinks taking away our class abilities and heavy attacking make for stimulating gameplay.

Delparis

Maybe fix the frame rate drops and the lag spikes ?

Shantu

Joy_Division wrote: »

People aren;t going to PvP if the combat isn;t fun. And the fun factor in PvP has consistently and constantly declined because ZOS thinks taking away our class abilities and heavy attacking make for stimulating gameplay.

True of all ESO in general. Nerfing seems to be all they know how to do...apart from the occasional buff from over-nerfing.

As for PVP, for the average player the bar to "git gud" under the current system is simply too high. I spent 6 months of daily playing, trying everything I could think of to improve. I had some fun but after awhile, the attrition of mediocrity just wears you down. You can criticize and tell people to L2P all you want, but the payoff for the investment in time, effort, knowledge isn't worth it to most. Being constant AP fodder for better players is not fun. Along with the technical issues, throw in a little teabagging and toxic bull crap and you end up with an experience most people will just take a pass on.

ZOS made a huge mistake tying PVE and PVP combat systems together. But they're far too down the "balance" rabbit hole at this point to ever wise up...to the detriment of the entire game.

max_only

No to your idea op. Sounds more like a punishment than an incentive. Pvpers getting their loot pools diluted with pve only armor and pvers grinding their teeth in disgust at having to pvp just to kill monsters.

I suggest they put in a pure reward only. Specialty housing bought with AP/earned by rank. And the house needs to be super unique and desired, some walls and some grass won’t cut it.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/434804/alliance-housing-aka-navy-ship-home-ap-pricing

Iskiab

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think that just fixing the lag, bugs, and persistent performance issues would do wonders to draw players back to Cyrodiil.

Maybe, though most people never look back when they leave a game.

Kiralyn2000

technohic wrote: »

I dont think luring PVEers into PVP for BIS sets is a good idea, unless I misunderstood what you meant.

This. Considering how much yelling there is on the forums when there's a ticket event in one of the PvP areas, I don't think this would be a good idea for 'attracting PvE players to PvP'.


People who want to PvP will do so. People who don't want to will avoid it. Trying to force people who don't want to PvP into it just creates hostility.
(I've seen enough posts to know that PvPers aren't thrilled when 'meta'-for-PvP sets are in PvE content, either. Or skills that they 'need' for their build like Undaunted. Ditto with PvE'ers and Rapids/Caltrops/that healing skill.)

Sergykid

wow style arenas. 2v2 and 3v3 with ranked score. Also people avoid pvp because it's horribly difficult, and not because of its difficulty, but because of cheese and balance issues.

Tandor

beadabow wrote: »

If, however, there were some sets that were considered Best in Slot (BiS), or comparable to Best in Slot for PvE applications, I get the feeling there would be a stampede of PvE players into the battlefields.

A stampede of PvE players out of the game would be much more likely.

VaranisArano

Tandor wrote: »

beadabow wrote: »

If, however, there were some sets that were considered Best in Slot (BiS), or comparable to Best in Slot for PvE applications, I get the feeling there would be a stampede of PvE players into the battlefields.

A stampede of PvE players out of the game would be much more likely.

It depends. There were plenty of PVEers who went to PVP to get their Caltrops, Vigor, and Warhorn, and then left. There are plenty of PVEers now who get their 25k AP for end of campaign transmute crystal rewards and then leave. Lots of PVEers will do a minimal amount of PVP for their event tickets and event rewards - just look at IC where they had a PVE-only option and many came to IC anyway.

Many PvEers will PVP when they want the rewards bad enough. Now, what rewards don't do is draw lots of PVEers to PVP to stay.

If we want a stable population, I still maintain the best way is to build up the population of players who want to PVP, amd I strongly suspect the best way to do that is to fix the performance issues.

JumpmanLane

I think the devs, in all their innocence, genuinely believe there’s no such thing as a PvPer or a PvEer and assume that ESO is one game and that anyone picking it up would at least play all parts of it some time.

The devs have no good conception of how afraid many players are of failing (dying) in front of others. Nor do they have a good idea of the lengths folks go to in order to avoid such embarrassment.

Generally, ESO is a pretty fun game. I don’t think it’s incumbent upon the devs to invent ways for the player base to overcome their insecurities about playing certain parts of the game...since folks are still buying chapters, crowns, and etc and the company is still making money.

Coggo

Our PVE brethren would loose their minds if BIS loot is locked behind pvp content! And, I would blame not them.

I do though agree synergy between the two realms is important. When Spell Strategist dropped us PVPers actually got to make millions selling best traited drops to pve folk. Of course now that market has sunk due to over saturation (such as with the Gladiator proofs and Akaviri motifs). The Golden somewhat works.

I'm sure some bright spark in the development department could design another mechanic to bring the interplay between PVP and PVE closer without causing a further schism between the two communities.

Integral1900

The vast majority of players are pve, ZOS won’t do anything to aggravate them if it can avoid it, sorry but this idea is dead in the water

It’s like getting me to watch soap operas like Eastenders, it doesn’t matter what bonuses they come with, I hate soaps with every fibre of my being. No amount of rewards will get past that.

FierceSam

I don’t think you want to pull PvE players into PvP.

I think you want to convert them to PvP.. you want to make them want to play PvP. And that is one hell of a challenge.

And while improving the server performance etc will undoubtedly make PvP a better experience for those that like PvP, they will have no effect on bringing new players into PvP.

Forcing players in, either through questing, events, skills (hello Caltrops), gear sets or rewards is catastrophically ineffective at transforming players who don’t like PvP into players who enjoy it. In fact it largely has the opposite effect, transforming players who don’t care about PvP into players who actively loath it. If any of these worked they would have worked by now.

The fundamental blocks to bringing people into PvP are still the utter lack of any support, no tutorials from ZOS, no space to practice in, no easy way to have both a PvP and PvE build for the same character with an easy and free way of swapping between the two and the sense that PvP is a carcinogenic environment to play in.

Until these elements change, the learning curve for PvP will remain so steep and so unattractive that very few will be encouraged into it.

idk

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think that just fixing the lag, bugs, and persistent performance issues would do wonders to draw players back to Cyrodiil.

This. And the devs are well aware of that.

Raideen

Dawnblade wrote: »

The reason I don't play PVP has little to do with the rewards, I don't play because I don't enjoy it.

If you want me to quit the game entirely, lock BIS or required items for PVE behind PVP.

#Keepthemseparated

Agreed. 90% + of my time in MMORPG's for 15 years has been spent in PVP. Its mostly all I have ever done. I love PVP. I came from FPS when I first started MMORPG's. That being said, I wont touch pvp in this game with a 100 foot stick. I don't enjoy it.

Gating PVE content behind PVP is the FASTEST way to tell me to take a hike. If I have to start PVPing (like the last event) to get PVE done, I am done and an interesting side effect of me leaving any game, or any business is that my wallet follows me in lockstep.

bmnoble

You know what I do right now when I want one of those PVP Sets?

Either I buy the set off the guild traders, for the traits I want, if the set is exclusive to the Tel var merchants I buy direct off a PVP player, using the current price rate of the Prismatic rune stones as a basis for gold conversion.

Provided the new gear can be sold or traded I would continue to do just that, its one of the sources of income for PVP players.

If however they made it bind on pickup, especially if it were best in slot gear, they would anger the majority of their player base, more than likely causing some players to quit the game for awhile.

For me though I would just live without the gear, for the most part the only reason I do PVP is to level up the Alliance war skills for my tanks, that is it.

If the performance were better I would play in Cyrodiil and my abilities activated when I pressed the buttons, like they do in all the PVE content in the game I would be more likely to play there.

As for Battleground the performance is a lot better, only time its noticeably bad ,is when I have to pick up the flag or the ball in some of the match types, takes the game awhile to notice I am trying to do that, so I get killed attempting to pick them up.

I would rather they changed it to who ever deals the death blow auto picks up the ball.


So to sum up, its not the gear or rewards of PVP that would attract me, its being able to play it, without my deaths being the result of not being able to activate my ability's and actually fight back. Poor performance is what will kill PVP not what is offered in the game.

deepseamk20b14_ESO

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think that just fixing the lag, bugs, and persistent performance issues would do wonders to draw players back to Cyrodiil.

This. Cyrodiil is so full of lag and other issues it’s pretty frustrating at times.

MasterSpatula

Getting a trial group together wastes enough of the players' valuable time as it is. Forcing them to PVP their way just to start the trial is a great way to get people avoid the trial, not a way to get more people in Cyrodiil.

Some simple ideas to get people into Cyrodiil:

Fix performance.

Have Double AP weekends every six weeks or so.

zParallaxz

Dawnblade wrote: »

The reason I don't play PVP has little to do with the rewards, I don't play because I don't enjoy it.

If you want me to quit the game entirely, lock BIS or required items for PVE behind PVP.

#Keepthemseparated

It’s funny how PvE players such as yourself have this mentality, but every non brain dead pvp player knows how to do most PvE content. But your feelings get hurt when another player attacks you, oh the irony.

FierceSam

zParallaxz wrote: »

Dawnblade wrote: »

The reason I don't play PVP has little to do with the rewards, I don't play because I don't enjoy it.

If you want me to quit the game entirely, lock BIS or required items for PVE behind PVP.

#Keepthemseparated

It’s funny how PvE players such as yourself have this mentality, but every non brain dead pvp player knows how to do most PvE content. But your feelings get hurt when another player attacks you, oh the irony.

And that’s the attitude that’s really going to encourage more PvE players to come play with you.... it’s almost as if you don’t want more player to do PvP

VaranisArano

FierceSam wrote: »

I don’t think you want to pull PvE players into PvP.

I think you want to convert them to PvP.. you want to make them want to play PvP. And that is one hell of a challenge.

And while improving the server performance etc will undoubtedly make PvP a better experience for those that like PvP, they will have no effect on bringing new players into PvP.

Forcing players in, either through questing, events, skills (hello Caltrops), gear sets or rewards is catastrophically ineffective at transforming players who don’t like PvP into players who enjoy it. In fact it largely has the opposite effect, transforming players who don’t care about PvP into players who actively loath it. If any of these worked they would have worked by now.

The fundamental blocks to bringing people into PvP are still the utter lack of any support, no tutorials from ZOS, no space to practice in, no easy way to have both a PvP and PvE build for the same character with an easy and free way of swapping between the two and the sense that PvP is a carcinogenic environment to play in.

Until these elements change, the learning curve for PvP will remain so steep and so unattractive that very few will be encouraged into it.

One of the best ways to help with that steep learning curve is for players who are new to PVP to join PVP guilds. Guilds can be a really important way for new PVPers to learn the basics in an environment that is less cutthroat than trying to learn PVP solo.

Unfortunately, there are a lot less PVP guilds around because of performance issues. The guilds that did a lot of LFG, PUG raiding, and training new players especially suffered. After all, who wants to play or learn to play in an environment where your skills don't work, you are stuck in combat, and you die to crashes and loading screens?

So while performance is definitely a matter of concern to players who already like PVP, its pretty important for players who think about trying out PVP. That's true both in terms of their own playing experience and in the guilds that suppprt those new players. If performance were as bad as this when I started to PVP 3 years ago, I'm not sure I would have stuckaround.


(I'll admit that I'm one of those players who was "forced" into Cyrodiil by my desire for those Master Angler fish. I was scared to death of PVP...and thanks to a fantastic PVP guild, I now PVP regularly.)

Dusk_Coven

beadabow wrote: »

If, however, there were some sets that were considered Best in Slot (BiS), or comparable to Best in Slot for PvE applications, I get the feeling there would be a stampede of PvE players into the battlefields.

Any sort of gear reward or limited use reward is tricky even in PvE. Once you get it, you are mostly "done". You got your set. That was your goal and you reached it. Unless the content is worth grinding -- "worth" being more than just how much you can sell it, but net return for your time investment -- no one's gonna repeatedly do it.
For your particular suggestion of BiS sets -- even assuming that the idea of deliberately making a set BiS somehow will get off the ground to begin with -- will probably be popular only until people get their set. Then they are done and gone. Just like event tickets -- kill the boss, get your tickets, exit and get on with whatever you were doing that was actually fun. Once they have what they want you can't force them back into PvE. They were just tourists shopping in a skid row. Only now they are running amok everywhere else except PvP with your BiS sets.

So why do people repeatedly go back to open world PvP? -- Because they actually like PvP. If you look at Cyrodiil, the IC and BG -- the PvP content is 100% grind. How many times do you want to capture a Farm, kill a monster for Tel Var, or queue to fight 4v4v4? But people stay in it because they want the PvP part. You can do basically the same thing in PvE and in so many different and interesting ways. But no, people want to kill a bunch of guards and stand around a banner. Why? Because of the TENSION that you might have to PvP. The ones that don't like that TENSION, they are what you call PvE and they won't stick around because of it.

What will really improve the PvP population is taking a hard look at why people don't want to get into it in ESO:

• Maybe they got ganked / killed in 2 seconds before they even got to do anything?
• Maybe they got killed just trying to get out of their sewer base?
• Maybe the opposition bought gold gear and skill levels to mow down everyone in under-50?
• Maybe it's always zergs and snipers?
• Maybe it's always 4 OP builds versus everyone else in BG?
• Maybe it's 4 OP clone builds fighting two other teams of exactly the same?
• Maybe they feel they have to buy their BiS gear build
• Maybe they feel they have to mash the buttons some online build tells them to
• Maybe they feel they have to buy the skill lines to get the skills the online build tells them to slot

Look at PvP in other games. Even games that are purely PvP or team PvP. Do they have the same number of problems and still have a PvP player base?
Then think about why ESO can't nurture and grow a PvP population. Without nurturing a population that actually wants to do PvP, other incentives will eventually fall flat.

ccfeeling

Remove critical resistance
Remove impen