boom baby

arkansas_ESO

Not sure how much feedback is being taken into account at this level in the PTS cycle, but one quick note:

Backlash: This ability and its morphs’ final explosion can now Critically Strike. Boom baby.

Ignoring that this is already one of the harder hitting abilities in the game without the ability to crit, this goes against previous precedent with other classes, ex. the HOT from Nightblade's Strife morphs cannot crit, as it derives it's value from whether or not the initial hit crit, and so to allow both an opportunity to crit was considered "double dipping" by ZOS and removed. Now, Backlash double dips, as it's final damage increases depending on how often you crit and if you crit the final explosion.

Can we expect to see a revision to other skills to fit this new ruleset established by the Backlash change?

jypcy

Interesting point, but I don’t think this would be considered double dipping because there’s still a cap on the damage copied, right? If the copied damage amount could crit, and the actual damage of the “boom baby” could crit as well, then I think you get into actual double dipping territory as in the Strife case. But in the current version, the boom still maxes out regardless of how often or with which abilities you crit beforehand.

BattleAxe

Also op it was changed only the casters damage is now copied by the skill so if you are not build for damage this will not hit hard so people can’t just cast and let people give them free damage

ZeroXFF

It was so "good" that nobody ever used it in DPS rotations. As the people before me pointed out, it has a cap (strife does not), which means that most of the crits in those 6 seconds when you build it up are wasted, and now it's only the caster's damage that is taken into account. This is now officially the hardest to use delayed burst skill in the game (not fire and forget like daedric prey, can't delay its activation until you actually need it like with grim focus), so I see no reason why it shouldn't also be the strongest.

Besides, it doesn't just "double dip" in crit, it also "double dips" in damage mitigation. Everything else put aside, this alone would be a sufficient justification. If you have high resistances, the person using it on you will have a hard time stacking it up, and the final hit will be cut by your resistances again. Same with crit resistance. Tell me what other skill gets double penalty from the enemy's mitigation.

Solariken

I kind of agree, I would much rather remove the damage cap and keep it crit-free.

SirMewser

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Not sure how much feedback is being taken into account at this level in the PTS cycle, but one quick note:

Backlash: This ability and its morphs’ final explosion can now Critically Strike. Boom baby.

Ignoring that this is already one of the harder hitting abilities in the game without the ability to crit, this goes against previous precedent with other classes, ex. the HOT from Nightblade's Strife morphs cannot crit, as it derives it's value from whether or not the initial hit crit, and so to allow both an opportunity to crit was considered "double dipping" by ZOS and removed. Now, Backlash double dips, as it's final damage increases depending on how often you crit and if you crit the final explosion.

Can we expect to see a revision to other skills to fit this new ruleset established by the Backlash change?

The oblivious answer is no.
I mean, we could, but they wouldn't.

arkansas_ESO

ZeroXFF wrote: »

It was so "good" that nobody ever used it in DPS rotations.

And yet every Templar uses it in PVP - this game isn't just about PVE.

now it's only the caster's damage that is taken into account.

This is a no brain change that should've been done a long time ago (why would you create a skill that serves to let a zerg focus fire down one player with even greater efficiency?)

This is now officially the hardest to use delayed burst skill in the game (not fire and forget like daedric prey, can't delay its activation until you actually need it like with grim focus), so I see no reason why it shouldn't also be the strongest.

You've overestimating how difficult this thing is to use. You do not have to change your rotation at all when Backlash is up (maybe you dump your ult, which you'd do anyways while trying to burst somebody.

ZeroXFF

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

And yet every Templar uses it in PVP - this game isn't just about PVE.

You mean every zergling who can rely on the damage from others to build it up.

Also, the game is mostly about PvE, so don't break a skill in PvE just because it was too strong in a specific situation in PvP in the past and is no longer due to the other changes to the skill. You're literally trying to nerf a skill that just received a nerf in the only situation it was truly good in PvP.

You've overestimating how difficult this thing is to use. You do not have to change your rotation at all when Backlash is up (maybe you dump your ult, which you'd do anyways while trying to burst somebody.

And your opponents in PvP are target dummies that do not use defensive skills? Because like I said, it's still mitigated twice.

Abyssmol

ZeroXFF wrote: »

It was so "good" that nobody ever used it in DPS rotations. As the people before me pointed out, it has a cap (strife does not), which means that most of the crits in those 6 seconds when you build it up are wasted, and now it's only the caster's damage that is taken into account. This is now officially the hardest to use delayed burst skill in the game (not fire and forget like daedric prey, can't delay its activation until you actually need it like with grim focus), so I see no reason why it shouldn't also be the strongest.

Besides, it doesn't just "double dip" in crit, it also "double dips" in damage mitigation. Everything else put aside, this alone would be a sufficient justification. If you have high resistances, the person using it on you will have a hard time stacking it up, and the final hit will be cut by your resistances again. Same with crit resistance. Tell me what other skill gets double penalty from the enemy's mitigation.

Finally, someone gets it!!!

mague

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Not sure how much feedback is being taken into account at this level in the PTS cycle, but one quick note:

Backlash: This ability and its morphs’ final explosion can now Critically Strike. Boom baby.

Ignoring that this is already one of the harder hitting abilities in the game without the ability to crit, this goes against previous precedent with other classes, ex. the HOT from Nightblade's Strife morphs cannot crit, as it derives it's value from whether or not the initial hit crit, and so to allow both an opportunity to crit was considered "double dipping" by ZOS and removed. Now, Backlash double dips, as it's final damage increases depending on how often you crit and if you crit the final explosion.

Can we expect to see a revision to other skills to fit this new ruleset established by the Backlash change?

Others cant feed it anymore. It was one of the better "stoppers" in Cyrodiil, but i switched already to a different skill. Morphs are still a heal or debuff and make sense in other situations. Dual wield stamplars probably will like it. I like the mag version for solo PvE in dungeons. It is just no longer a rock--cycling-tank-stopper in Cyrodiil.

Patch Notes 5.2.2

Templar
Dawn’s Wrath
Backlash:
This ability and its morphs will now only store damage dealt from the caster of the ability, rather than anyone who hits the afflicted target. This was done to offset some of the staggering power (of the Light) the ability could bring in group situations, where low damage builds could apply the ability and generate free real estate from their allies’ contribution. Now, you have to put in the fervor to get the full power of these abilities.
Fixed an issue where these abilities would conflict with one another if more than one player cast the same morph of the ability on a target.

Derra

Solariken wrote: »

I kind of agree, I would much rather remove the damage cap and keep it crit-free.

Oh boy. I know a few templars who would ABSOLUTELY love that.

SirDopey

arkansas_ESO wrote: »

Not sure how much feedback is being taken into account at this level in the PTS cycle, but one quick note:

Backlash: This ability and its morphs’ final explosion can now Critically Strike. Boom baby.

Ignoring that this is already one of the harder hitting abilities in the game without the ability to crit, this goes against previous precedent with other classes, ex. the HOT from Nightblade's Strife morphs cannot crit, as it derives it's value from whether or not the initial hit crit, and so to allow both an opportunity to crit was considered "double dipping" by ZOS and removed. Now, Backlash double dips, as it's final damage increases depending on how often you crit and if you crit the final explosion.

Can we expect to see a revision to other skills to fit this new ruleset established by the Backlash change?

They also reworked where the damage comes from though. On Live the skill copies all and any damage to the target, so it's easy for tanks, healers and bad dps to hit the cap. Now it will only copy the damage that you dish out, so it's kind of going to be better for better players but not help out bad ones so much.

SenpaiNFT

1. Removing the damage cap is a horrible idea as it rewards Xv1 style builds more because they will more easily reach the cap.
2. The ability is necessary as is for Templar to be allowed into competitive raid groups.
3. The ability as it stands is slightly above average at best in open world 1vX because it is difficult to focus one person fully for 6 seconds in Cyrodiil. Any nerfs to the damage from live would cause it to be unslotted by actual good players and only remain slotted by zerglings who Xv1; currently the ability critting is a nice OW buff for 1vX (although I do not believe Magplar needs it, at all). Why would you want to intentionally nerf good players?
4. Reason number 3 is also further justification for reason number 1.
5. I am in full support, as a stamplar main small scaler/dueler and someone who does endgame PvE that would like to take my main into trial, of a complete rework of the ability to make it better for 1vX, worse for Xv1, and better in PvE.

Nordic__Knights

SenpaiNFT wrote: »

1. Removing the damage cap is a horrible idea as it rewards Xv1 style builds more because they will more easily reach the cap.
2. The ability is necessary as is for Templar to be allowed into competitive raid groups.
3. The ability as it stands is slightly above average at best in open world 1vX because it is difficult to focus one person fully for 6 seconds in Cyrodiil. Any nerfs to the damage from live would cause it to be unslotted by actual good players and only remain slotted by zerglings who Xv1; currently the ability critting is a nice OW buff for 1vX (although I do not believe Magplar needs it, at all). Why would you want to intentionally nerf good players?
4. Reason number 3 is also further justification for reason number 1.
5. I am in full support, as a stamplar main small scaler/dueler and someone who does endgame PvE that would like to take my main into trial, of a complete rework of the ability to make it better for 1vX, worse for Xv1, and better in PvE.

tttake out the ctit an you have just that , as it is you'll have an op version of what show be but for how long 3 months 6 hell even maybe an year but after the end of it it will show itself for what it will be over used and OP

Artorias24

Oh boy, i am not looking forward this change.

Dueling magplars and stamplars on live atm gives you already 7-8k backlash on you. With 30k resist...

Imagine this critting now... Big brain time here again from ZOS....

Just make it stackable and only be chargable from the caster. Thats enough. No crit needed....

ZeroXFF

@SenpaiNFT @Nordic__Knights have both of you missed the memo where it only benefits from the caster's damage now? I think it was mentioned 5 times already in this thread.

@Artorias24 Ok, let's do the math:

You get hit for 8k. That's 16k before battle spirit and your resistances cut it by say 30% (45% with 30k resist, but your opponent probably had some decent penetration), which would put the final hit at 22k tooltip equivalent (rounded down). The skill is copying 20% of the damage, which also had to go through battle spirit and resistances, so that means the real value that was copied is something like 20%*50%*70%=7%. Meaning 22k is 7% of the damage your opponent must have done before mitigation (assuming you weren't blocking too), so the amount of damage he must have done in 6s before mitigation is 22k/7*100=314k. 314/6=52k dps. And we didn't consider CPs yet here, so this would be no-CP DPS.

So in conclusion: if you took an 8k backlash in PvP in a 1v1 encounter in a no-CP case, your opponent must be able to do 52k DPS in PvE without having his CPs assigned on a target without resistances. And you also must have healed through over 100k-[your HP at start] damage in those 6 seconds to stay alive by the time it hit you.

You're basically a target dummy if Backlash ever hits you for that much, and your opponent was running a full divines PvE setup and was on a godly level skill-wise.

WillhelmBlack

"You know you don't need to be here, right?"

- Rich Lambert. Stamplar main and Baby Boomer.

danno8

ZeroXFF wrote: »

@SenpaiNFT @Nordic__Knights have both of you missed the memo where it only benefits from the caster's damage now? I think it was mentioned 5 times already in this thread.

@Artorias24 Ok, let's do the math:

You get hit for 8k. That's 16k before battle spirit and your resistances cut it by say 30% (45% with 30k resist, but your opponent probably had some decent penetration), which would put the final hit at 22k tooltip equivalent (rounded down). The skill is copying 20% of the damage, which also had to go through battle spirit and resistances, so that means the real value that was copied is something like 20%*50%*70%=7%. Meaning 22k is 7% of the damage your opponent must have done before mitigation (assuming you weren't blocking too), so the amount of damage he must have done in 6s before mitigation is 22k/7*100=314k. 314/6=52k dps. And we didn't consider CPs yet here, so this would be no-CP DPS.

So in conclusion: if you took an 8k backlash in PvP in a 1v1 encounter in a no-CP case, your opponent must be able to do 52k DPS in PvE without having his CPs assigned on a target without resistances. And you also must have healed through over 100k-[your HP at start] damage in those 6 seconds to stay alive by the time it hit you.

You're basically a target dummy if Backlash ever hits you for that much, and your opponent was running a full divines PvE setup and was on a godly level skill-wise.

Just needed to point out that in PvP the copied damage is actually higher than 20% contribution. I can't recall the amount but they made it higher due to the fact that it is obviously tougher to hit people in PvP than in PvE. I could try to find the Patch Notes for that but it was like one or two years ago.

SenpaiNFT

ZeroXFF wrote: »

@SenpaiNFT @Nordic__Knights have both of you missed the memo where it only benefits from the caster's damage now? I think it was mentioned 5 times already in this thread.

@Artorias24 Ok, let's do the math:

You get hit for 8k. That's 16k before battle spirit and your resistances cut it by say 30% (45% with 30k resist, but your opponent probably had some decent penetration), which would put the final hit at 22k tooltip equivalent (rounded down). The skill is copying 20% of the damage, which also had to go through battle spirit and resistances, so that means the real value that was copied is something like 20%*50%*70%=7%. Meaning 22k is 7% of the damage your opponent must have done before mitigation (assuming you weren't blocking too), so the amount of damage he must have done in 6s before mitigation is 22k/7*100=314k. 314/6=52k dps. And we didn't consider CPs yet here, so this would be no-CP DPS.

So in conclusion: if you took an 8k backlash in PvP in a 1v1 encounter in a no-CP case, your opponent must be able to do 52k DPS in PvE without having his CPs assigned on a target without resistances. And you also must have healed through over 100k-[your HP at start] damage in those 6 seconds to stay alive by the time it hit you.

You're basically a target dummy if Backlash ever hits you for that much, and your opponent was running a full divines PvE setup and was on a godly level skill-wise.

Go back and re-read my comment, then re-type your response.

ZeroXFF

SenpaiNFT wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

@SenpaiNFT @Nordic__Knights have both of you missed the memo where it only benefits from the caster's damage now? I think it was mentioned 5 times already in this thread.

@Artorias24 Ok, let's do the math:

You get hit for 8k. That's 16k before battle spirit and your resistances cut it by say 30% (45% with 30k resist, but your opponent probably had some decent penetration), which would put the final hit at 22k tooltip equivalent (rounded down). The skill is copying 20% of the damage, which also had to go through battle spirit and resistances, so that means the real value that was copied is something like 20%*50%*70%=7%. Meaning 22k is 7% of the damage your opponent must have done before mitigation (assuming you weren't blocking too), so the amount of damage he must have done in 6s before mitigation is 22k/7*100=314k. 314/6=52k dps. And we didn't consider CPs yet here, so this would be no-CP DPS.

So in conclusion: if you took an 8k backlash in PvP in a 1v1 encounter in a no-CP case, your opponent must be able to do 52k DPS in PvE without having his CPs assigned on a target without resistances. And you also must have healed through over 100k-[your HP at start] damage in those 6 seconds to stay alive by the time it hit you.

You're basically a target dummy if Backlash ever hits you for that much, and your opponent was running a full divines PvE setup and was on a godly level skill-wise.

Go back and re-read my comment, then re-type your response.

I did. Right in the first point you're talking about Xv1. 1v1 or Xv1 is irrelevant with this change.

Neoauspex

Can we talk more about Reggie Miller and Slick Leonard in this thread?

SenpaiNFT

ZeroXFF wrote: »

SenpaiNFT wrote: »

ZeroXFF wrote: »

@SenpaiNFT @Nordic__Knights have both of you missed the memo where it only benefits from the caster's damage now? I think it was mentioned 5 times already in this thread.

@Artorias24 Ok, let's do the math:

You get hit for 8k. That's 16k before battle spirit and your resistances cut it by say 30% (45% with 30k resist, but your opponent probably had some decent penetration), which would put the final hit at 22k tooltip equivalent (rounded down). The skill is copying 20% of the damage, which also had to go through battle spirit and resistances, so that means the real value that was copied is something like 20%*50%*70%=7%. Meaning 22k is 7% of the damage your opponent must have done before mitigation (assuming you weren't blocking too), so the amount of damage he must have done in 6s before mitigation is 22k/7*100=314k. 314/6=52k dps. And we didn't consider CPs yet here, so this would be no-CP DPS.

So in conclusion: if you took an 8k backlash in PvP in a 1v1 encounter in a no-CP case, your opponent must be able to do 52k DPS in PvE without having his CPs assigned on a target without resistances. And you also must have healed through over 100k-[your HP at start] damage in those 6 seconds to stay alive by the time it hit you.

You're basically a target dummy if Backlash ever hits you for that much, and your opponent was running a full divines PvE setup and was on a godly level skill-wise.

Go back and re-read my comment, then re-type your response.

I did. Right in the first point you're talking about Xv1. 1v1 or Xv1 is irrelevant with this change.

Wrong. It’s easier, especially for magplars, to reach damage cap when they are Xv1ng you because they can essentially get a full PvE rotation going on unless you focus them. And if you focus them, another magplar can easily do the same. It’s hard to full focus someone for 6 seconds while 1vXing, this it’s much better, still, in Xv1 then it is in 1vX.

Also, I clearly illustrated that the crit change is a good buff for 1vX in my post, something you clearly missed because you didn’t actually read past the first sentence.

Nordic__Knights

@ZeroXFF
YES I KNOW WHAT THE SKILL IS GOING TO DO AND ITS GOOD ONLY THING WRONG WITH IT STILL IS THE CRIT !!!!!!!!