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For a purely academic exercise, about afk dolmen farming:
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Getting out of the map to farm new trials did not go well, going out of map to ride on the Elsweyr aqueducts is fine.starkerealm wrote: »
No, its pretty hard to get banned in ESO with some exceptions:lordrichter wrote: »After reading through all of this, I do have to laugh.
This game has had bans simply for people figuring out a specific place to stand in dungeons where the boss could not hit them. No cheats, bots, clickers... all clean as fresh snow. That was considered an exploit because it bypassed intended game mechanics.
Thought exercise or not, this is the same thing. It bypasses intended game mechanics.
Also, add me as a "+1" for the comment "Why play the game at all then?"
Interesting. Would you say that a simple survival build could be tested as exploit, in a ban sense? Mind you, this isn't bypassing mechanics, just surviving them. Not even hiding away.
It's also extremely infective, as some have said here, but still interesting as a study. Much like those immortal PvP builds that can't even kill mudcrabs, but work well as proof of concept.
Running around in while robes and hood setting Redguards on fire is one, spamming chat with adds for gold sellers is another. Both are pretty Darvin award stuff to do.
As for something random players might get an ban for I can think of two cases.
One was the practice of cooperate with another faction in Cyrodil to swap resources or keeps.
Second was an time Imperial city gave loads of xp because an bug and people exploited this.
Both cases was 3 days ban or something.
Getting out of the map, making stealth builds for farming group dungeons for chests and all sort of weird stuff is fine.
Getting out of the map didn't end well for the Asylum exploiters.
Also, Flying Goblin got banned (reportedly.)
On the other hand, the guild member who threatened to murder another guildie didn't. So, you're not completely off base.
There have been a number of people who got outside map boundaries one way or another over the years, without facing any punishment for it. This remains something that ZOS exercises discretion over.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »
No, its pretty hard to get banned in ESO with some exceptions:lordrichter wrote: »After reading through all of this, I do have to laugh.
This game has had bans simply for people figuring out a specific place to stand in dungeons where the boss could not hit them. No cheats, bots, clickers... all clean as fresh snow. That was considered an exploit because it bypassed intended game mechanics.
Thought exercise or not, this is the same thing. It bypasses intended game mechanics.
Also, add me as a "+1" for the comment "Why play the game at all then?"
Interesting. Would you say that a simple survival build could be tested as exploit, in a ban sense? Mind you, this isn't bypassing mechanics, just surviving them. Not even hiding away.
It's also extremely infective, as some have said here, but still interesting as a study. Much like those immortal PvP builds that can't even kill mudcrabs, but work well as proof of concept.
Running around in while robes and hood setting Redguards on fire is one, spamming chat with adds for gold sellers is another. Both are pretty Darvin award stuff to do.
As for something random players might get an ban for I can think of two cases.
One was the practice of cooperate with another faction in Cyrodil to swap resources or keeps.
Second was an time Imperial city gave loads of xp because an bug and people exploited this.
Both cases was 3 days ban or something.
Getting out of the map, making stealth builds for farming group dungeons for chests and all sort of weird stuff is fine.
Getting out of the map didn't end well for the Asylum exploiters.
Also, Flying Goblin got banned (reportedly.)
On the other hand, the guild member who threatened to murder another guildie didn't. So, you're not completely off base.
Wtf... O.o
I dunno man, I just summon demons, and report ****.0 -
SirLeeMinion✭✭✭✭✭Considerations: absolutely no cheats, bots, macros, auto clickers, anything like that. Clean as it gets.
Question one, is it ok per ToS?
I have found that it is very helpful to put in a support ticket and get an actual answer from ZOS. They do answer questions like this, and the one or two questions I've asked them straight out have yielded answers vastly different than the army of players that quote interpret the ToS for you. I'd suggest that if you do ask and get a reply, save it. Staffing changes from time to time and it could prove helpful should you face questions later.And two, how do you feel about it, within the constraints of not breaking any rules?
.
Personally, who cares? If you want to use dolmens as a screen saver with a tiny bit of XP mixed in, why not? It doesn't hurt anyone else. As noted above, if it's primarily XP you want, then you are better off joining a group and dropping AoEs. I've gotten loot from dolmen bosses that hadn't even rendered on my screen until they were dead. I watch for the anchor pinion to pop up in front of the steps; it always renders even when the boss does not on my laggy laptop.
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ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Now you tell me, is a 100k health tank exploiting too? Because they can literally face tank anything without blocking and stay alive... Nah... This is just a build. Same as my proposition.
Point of fact, that 100k health tank wouldn't be able to face tank everything without blocking and live. There are a number of attacks that scale in relation to the target's health. Additionally, there are a number of enemies that can deal north of 100k (before mitigation), and can do so repeatedly, in rapid succession. At that point, with that much health, the Tank would be dependent on their health scaling heals, and couldn't rely on their healer to save them.
Interesting observation... This build in particular, 100k health, was on a necro and they have the scythe to heal based on health. One hour KO mechanics aside, this is still pretty absurd when you can survive hundreds of thousands damage before dying.
Without looking at the build itself, that makes me suspect a large chunk of that health is coming from the ultimate being active. But, "tank is immortal while their ultimate is up," sounds a lot less sexy than, "100k health tank."
Also, saying, the oneshot mechanics don't count, kinda misses the point that there are a lot of one shot mechanics that are, technically, survivable. So, now you're picking and choosing, while trying to say, "this thing is an exploit even though it follows the rules."
I thought 1 shots were designed percentage base, so they would never be survivable. As for the tank build, I believe you are correct, but I honestly can't tell. I know 65-70k build exists without ultimates, but beyond that, I can only think of the bone Daddy ultimate.
Still though... If you can survive one shots, that's even worse. I want saying it doesn't count, I was saying it was already absurd to survive the other mechanics. For example, I've survived over 300k damage with the planar boss in WGT with my healer, but that was over a REALLY long period before I finally died. Absurd that a tank can take the same amount of damage but in a couple seconds or so, and still survive. That's what I meant.
Then again, back to the topic, these extreme cases are what lead to some seemingly random and pointless nerfs. There's always someone having weird ideas and trying them out. For myself, I prefer to talk it over here than to risk it.
It depends on the one shot. Some intended one shots are designed to deal a massive damage spike, which is supposed to be survivable, but technically can be survived with a tanky enough setup.
Planar Inhibitor is misleading, because it displays all damage taken over the duration of the DoT. You can end up with some ridiculous numbers. It's more of an indication of healing received than actual damage mitigated.
Precisely. That's why I saw those numbers on a healer, and over tens of ticks. A whole different game to see those numbers on two or three ticks only. Scary. Haha0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Now you tell me, is a 100k health tank exploiting too? Because they can literally face tank anything without blocking and stay alive... Nah... This is just a build. Same as my proposition.
Point of fact, that 100k health tank wouldn't be able to face tank everything without blocking and live. There are a number of attacks that scale in relation to the target's health. Additionally, there are a number of enemies that can deal north of 100k (before mitigation), and can do so repeatedly, in rapid succession. At that point, with that much health, the Tank would be dependent on their health scaling heals, and couldn't rely on their healer to save them.
Interesting observation... This build in particular, 100k health, was on a necro and they have the scythe to heal based on health. One hour KO mechanics aside, this is still pretty absurd when you can survive hundreds of thousands damage before dying.
Without looking at the build itself, that makes me suspect a large chunk of that health is coming from the ultimate being active. But, "tank is immortal while their ultimate is up," sounds a lot less sexy than, "100k health tank."
Also, saying, the oneshot mechanics don't count, kinda misses the point that there are a lot of one shot mechanics that are, technically, survivable. So, now you're picking and choosing, while trying to say, "this thing is an exploit even though it follows the rules."
I thought 1 shots were designed percentage base, so they would never be survivable. As for the tank build, I believe you are correct, but I honestly can't tell. I know 65-70k build exists without ultimates, but beyond that, I can only think of the bone Daddy ultimate.
Still though... If you can survive one shots, that's even worse. I want saying it doesn't count, I was saying it was already absurd to survive the other mechanics. For example, I've survived over 300k damage with the planar boss in WGT with my healer, but that was over a REALLY long period before I finally died. Absurd that a tank can take the same amount of damage but in a couple seconds or so, and still survive. That's what I meant.
Then again, back to the topic, these extreme cases are what lead to some seemingly random and pointless nerfs. There's always someone having weird ideas and trying them out. For myself, I prefer to talk it over here than to risk it.
It depends on the one shot. Some intended one shots are designed to deal a massive damage spike, which is supposed to be survivable, but technically can be survived with a tanky enough setup.
Planar Inhibitor is misleading, because it displays all damage taken over the duration of the DoT. You can end up with some ridiculous numbers. It's more of an indication of healing received than actual damage mitigated.
Precisely. That's why I saw those numbers on a healer, and over tens of ticks. A whole different game to see those numbers on two or three ticks only. Scary. Haha
Sorry, just saw that typo. "Some intended one shots are designed to deal a massive damage spike which is not supposed to be survivable..." We torment Finn when we live through those.1 -
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭If ZOS wanted you to farm dolmens afk, they would not have put in a mechanic that kills you if you just stand there in experience range
The OP probably sees people standing it in all the time and just wants to do it legitimately. And that highlights a problem -- ZOS put in the mechanic and didn't watch it. Now it's worthless and they don't tweak it.
Same with the Justice System. People go around killing entire populations in Auridon and other places. If the Justice System were working as intended, they'd tweak that. More guards to cover the blind spots for starters. Some areas the guard is standing just slightly out of range and doesn't respond. Really, really, basic things and ZOS doesn't bother.
For dolmens, a lot of people say it really doesn't kill them at all and they don't even need the pinions to periodically refresh their health to full. Even if they did, usually the dolmen goes down so quickly that you don't get hit by lightning often enough.
When it's so "safe", people start taking arrogant risks -- and look! It works! Just stand there, watch Netflix, come back and collect your loot.
In the worst case, the OP could carry a stack of soul gems. Let the lightning kill them, rez at the end, collect loot. I believe that still gives them the dolmen XP.
Edited by Dusk_Coven on October 6, 2019 6:06PM0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »If ZOS wanted you to farm dolmens afk, they would not have put in a mechanic that kills you if you just stand there in experience range
The OP probably sees people standing it in all the time and just wants to do it legitimately. And that highlights a problem -- ZOS put in the mechanic and didn't watch it. Now it's worthless and they don't tweak it.
Except that's not what happened. Back at launch, there was little incentive to grind Dolmens. You'd get five levels above the target, and it would stop giving you XP and loot.
One Tamriel changed that, and suddenly Dolmen grinding was a viable way to level, because of a fundamental changes to how the game worked, not because they got sloppy with a mechanic.
At that point, anything too heavy handed would make it impossible for legitimate players to clear farmed dolmens, but they did change the system so that it would punish people who were simply rubberbanding.
The Justice system is a different problem. Yes, ZOS could adjust the system to be more proactive about stopping players who'd spent five years learning the limitations of the system, but that would overly punitive towards newbies trying to learn the ropes. So the whole thing is simply left in a freeze.0 -
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »One Tamriel changed that, and suddenly Dolmen grinding was a viable way to level, because of a fundamental changes to how the game worked, not because they got sloppy with a mechanic.
At that point, anything too heavy handed would make it impossible for legitimate players to clear farmed dolmens, but they did change the system so that it would punish people who were simply rubberbanding.
I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying after One Tamriel some people stumbling onto dolmens found it too hard?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/493450/anchors-need-a-balance-update-they-have-become-a-joke/starkerealm wrote: »The Justice system is a different problem. Yes, ZOS could adjust the system to be more proactive about stopping players who'd spent five years learning the limitations of the system, but that would overly punitive towards newbies trying to learn the ropes. So the whole thing is simply left in a freeze.
Sorry I think ZOS is lazy on this one. Doesn't take years to figure out you can bulldoze through a Sacrament without stealth, log off and go to sleep, then log back on to no Bounty. It's another indication that ZOS devs don't play their game as much as they should.Edited by Dusk_Coven on October 6, 2019 6:29PM0 -
Ysbriel✭✭✭✭✭UntilValhalla13 wrote: »Why play the game at all then, honestly?
How does your reply relate to any of the points of the post? Please refrain from derailing. Thanks.
It does actually pertain to the post since AFK means you are currently not playing the game since i yet to see any content that requires you to stand by in an area for longer or close to the time it takes the system to log you out due to inactivity, when the developers established this control for a reason that may have been with the same question in mind, why would somebody would be on the game inactive for extended periods of time when there is no content that requires it. so his question therefore does not derail from the topic at hand.
You also asked who do we feel about it so he also might be expressing his feelings on the idea which also does not derail from the topic.
In the same line i also have the same question and feeling about being able to bypass established controls while exploiting content in an unintended way to complete any content or develop any character.
Oh, I see. Interesting. I'll say this though... There's a mechanic that suppresses health regen, in order for you to die. If I'm smarter than the devs and I figure out how to not die, even with that, then that's my problem, right? It's not exploiting, since I wouldn't be doing, like clearly stated, anything questionable. Merely a combination of sets, food, boons and CP.
This is, to me, the same logic as adapting to nerfs. There's always something else that can be done. Always.
Good thing this is all theory here though, as I level up by doing dungeons and BG, one of each random, everyday. Quick and easy.
I guess it would be a matter of what they would consider it one of those “fixed an issue where x was not working properly” things.
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »One Tamriel changed that, and suddenly Dolmen grinding was a viable way to level, because of a fundamental changes to how the game worked, not because they got sloppy with a mechanic.
At that point, anything too heavy handed would make it impossible for legitimate players to clear farmed dolmens, but they did change the system so that it would punish people who were simply rubberbanding.
I'm not sure I understand you. Are you saying after One Tamriel some people stumbling onto dolmens found it too hard?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/493450/anchors-need-a-balance-update-they-have-become-a-joke/
No, I'm saying any solution that was too heavy handed. Such as harshly punishing players who were underperforming, or requiring players deal a significant portion of the damage at a dolmen. Would disproportionately punish new players making it hard, or impossible, for them to get credit on crowded dolmens.
An issue that already exists in places like Alik'r, where newer players do struggle to get credit.Dusk_Coven wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »The Justice system is a different problem. Yes, ZOS could adjust the system to be more proactive about stopping players who'd spent five years learning the limitations of the system, but that would overly punitive towards newbies trying to learn the ropes. So the whole thing is simply left in a freeze.
Sorry I think ZOS is lazy on this one. Doesn't take years to figure out you can bulldoze through a Sacrament without stealth, log off and go to sleep, then log back on to no Bounty. It's another indication that ZOS devs don't play their game as much as they should.
They play it more than you.
Also, it's possible, they don't really care if you break content like the sacrament. Remember, they have no problem with the players who treat their bounty like a high score.0 -
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »No, I'm saying any solution that was too heavy handed. Such as harshly punishing players who were underperforming, or requiring players deal a significant portion of the damage at a dolmen. Would disproportionately punish new players making it hard, or impossible, for them to get credit on crowded dolmens.
An issue that already exists in places like Alik'r, where newer players do struggle to get credit.Dusk_Coven wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »The Justice system is a different problem. Yes, ZOS could adjust the system to be more proactive about stopping players who'd spent five years learning the limitations of the system, but that would overly punitive towards newbies trying to learn the ropes. So the whole thing is simply left in a freeze.
Sorry I think ZOS is lazy on this one. Doesn't take years to figure out you can bulldoze through a Sacrament without stealth, log off and go to sleep, then log back on to no Bounty. It's another indication that ZOS devs don't play their game as much as they should.
They play it more than you.
Also, it's possible, they don't really care if you break content like the sacrament. Remember, they have no problem with the players who treat their bounty like a high score.
My perspective is that it's broken and ZOS doesn't care to look into it.
With Alik'r Dolmens, we're at the point where the this forum topic even exists -- legitimately going AFK at a dolmen? Really? I'm not recommending a "harsh solution". I'm just think it's not working as intended.
Same with "bounty high scores" -- IMO bounties are your penalty for being bad at thievery and assassination and there should be a significant inconvenience to having it. When people start doing this, you know the system is not working as intended.0 -
Mettaricana✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »Does this even attract the lightning thingy?
Anyone standing still long enough is the trigger for a lightning aoe being on them.
If it's so busy that your connection is lagging and you really can't get a hit in, then some people really have no choice except to get hit by lightning (or go do something else to grind xp). That's the excuse I hear from people who are not bots.
Consider me poorly versed in dolmen farming wth is the lightning thingy0 -
D0PAMINE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Mettaricana wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »Does this even attract the lightning thingy?
Anyone standing still long enough is the trigger for a lightning aoe being on them.
If it's so busy that your connection is lagging and you really can't get a hit in, then some people really have no choice except to get hit by lightning (or go do something else to grind xp). That's the excuse I hear from people who are not bots.
Consider me poorly versed in dolmen farming wth is the lightning thingy
If you stand near an active dolmen without moving or attacking, after a certain period of time you will get continuously struck by lightning until you move or die.0 -
Kingslayer513✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's taking advantage of game mechanics, but not a bannable exploit. FWIW, ZOS can at any point redefine something as a exploit pretty arbitrarily, but as it currently stands you won't get banned without using some external tools to help you.
Unless it's been changed recently, you can just use the Introspection morph of Meditate toggled on indefinitely to survive the lightning mechanic. Being in a group gets you the xp from the dolmen without ever attacking. And no, who ever said you'll get kicked from group is wrong. Those groups aren't actively managed, it's all just auto invite which only kicks people for being offline.0 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »Sorry I think ZOS is lazy on this one. Doesn't take years to figure out you can bulldoze through a Sacrament without stealth, log off and go to sleep, then log back on to no Bounty. It's another indication that ZOS devs don't play their game as much as they should.
The thing is that this is how they want the game to be. There is no permanency in the the Justice System. Crime is temporary and gravitates towards a normal state. You can disagree with the idea and call it broken until you are blue in the face, but it is working as they intended, for whatever reasons that they have.
Edited by Elsonso on October 6, 2019 8:00PM0 -
Dusk_Coven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭lordrichter wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »Sorry I think ZOS is lazy on this one. Doesn't take years to figure out you can bulldoze through a Sacrament without stealth, log off and go to sleep, then log back on to no Bounty. It's another indication that ZOS devs don't play their game as much as they should.
The thing is that this is how they want the game to be. There is no permanency in the the Justice System. Crime is temporary and gravitates towards a normal state. You can disagree with the idea and call it broken until you are blue in the face, but it is working as they intended, for whatever reasons that they have.
Sure, there's no permanency blah blah blah. But when something is way too easy, it's probably NOT working as intended. Standing in lightning and doing nothing else to get dolmen rewards. Logging off your character to avoid dealing with the Bounty (sleep 2 win! lol). Queueing as fake tank or fake heal to get carried.
Not saying there's necessarily something that ZOS can do about it without significant work. But that doesn't mean it's necessarily working as intended.Edited by Dusk_Coven on October 6, 2019 8:25PM0