Maintenance for the week of September 16:
• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 16, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) – 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 18, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 18, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 16, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) – 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 18, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PlayStation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – September 18, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
Dear zos..
MeadDrinker02
✭✭✭
I hope when you are making these nerfs to skills you are listening to seasoned veteran players that knows how the skills work and can judge them on there own playing experiences AND NOT listening to newbs that don't know how skills work or to play the game for that matter.. In other words.. I hope you are making these decisions based on sound judgment from the pros and not just based on a couple of n00bs complaining..
5
-
MeadDrinker02✭✭✭Like seriously.. Higher the top 10 PVPers of each class and pit them against each other to see if the skills are OP or something, like I dunno.. Anyone else have any bright ideas?0
-
MeadDrinker02✭✭✭Like seriously.. Don't you have people working at ZOS testing their own game 24/7?0
-
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MeadDrinker02 wrote: »Like seriously.. Higher the top 10 PVPers of each class and pit them against each other to see if the skills are OP or something, like I dunno.. Anyone else have any bright ideas?
[snip]
This seems like an all around bad idea ...
[edited for non-constructive/baiting comment]
Edited by ZOS_RogerJ on October 2, 2019 8:06PM14 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭thats a power fantasy.. the pros will get a better game for sure... for them and only them.5 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MeadDrinker02 wrote: »Like seriously.. Higher the top 10 PVPers of each class and pit them against each other to see if the skills are OP or something, like I dunno.. Anyone else have any bright ideas?
Top 10 PVPers might help figure out balance in dueling.
For Cyrodiil? The best thing the Devs could do is play on the Live servers. Play a lot. Get a feel for what skills are commonly used in small scale and large scale fights and how skills behave in high lag. Figure out what skills are really overpowered and what's just L2Play. (The next best thing is to pick Class Reps with a wide variety of experience in PVP.)
Testing on PTS will never accurately replicate the experience of actually PVPing in Live Cyrodiil.2 -
MeadDrinker02✭✭✭MeadDrinker02 wrote: »Like seriously.. Higher the top 10 PVPers of each class and pit them against each other to see if the skills are OP or something, like I dunno.. Anyone else have any bright ideas?
[snip]
This seems like an all around bad idea ...
Ah! So that's why ZOS is nerfing everything down to the ground cuz they want to water down this game to please the majority of the people that suck at this game! Makes sense now!Edited by ZOS_RogerJ on October 2, 2019 8:07PM1 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, I'm afraid the correct way to balance the game is to do so around what I want."A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle2 -
StormeReigns✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MeadDrinker02 wrote: »MeadDrinker02 wrote: »Like seriously.. Higher the top 10 PVPers of each class and pit them against each other to see if the skills are OP or something, like I dunno.. Anyone else have any bright ideas?
Just like in the real world, trying to cater to the top 1% of your population (aka The Epeeners™) will make for a really *** experience for the remaining 99% (aka The Casuals™).
This seems like an all around bad idea ...
Ah! So that's why ZOS is nerfing everything down to the ground cuz they want to water down this game to please the majority of the people that suck at this game! Makes sense now!
Interesting way to look it, despite a basic forum search shows that most if not all nerf threads are from these so called "Pro PvP'ers" so, looks like you got what you wanted.
You know, Careful for what you wish for, you just might get it / Reap what you sow and all that jazz.Edited by StormeReigns on October 2, 2019 6:09PM6 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MeadDrinker02 wrote: »MeadDrinker02 wrote: »Like seriously.. Higher the top 10 PVPers of each class and pit them against each other to see if the skills are OP or something, like I dunno.. Anyone else have any bright ideas?
Just like in the real world, trying to cater to the top 1% of your population (aka The Epeeners™) will make for a really *** experience for the remaining 99% (aka The Casuals™).
This seems like an all around bad idea ...
Ah! So that's why ZOS is nerfing everything down to the ground cuz they want to water down this game to please the majority of the people that suck at this game! Makes sense now!
No.
https://youtu.be/Yb9H1kwF25w
GilliamtheRogue 1:01:50 min: "..what kind of players experience the game in different ways, and what is our target audience with some these changes. So like in some of these cases it's a numbers game which not everyone really cares about. The average player who's going to come on and just kill some dragons or stuff like that, they don't care if they're spammable is doing a billion damage..." (Emphasis mine.)
Wheeler: "Well I would."
They tried to walk it back, but it was pretty clear.
They go on to to say they are focused on the end game group. And that the endgame players "...thats's where a lot of the number balancing, in terms of why things get buffed or nerfed is, like, its focused on that group in terms of making sure that we have a healthy game that everyone can experience..." (Again emphasis mine.)
They are focused on the 1% the other 99% are not their "focus". That is why the game is suffering.
The combat team consists of a guy who does not do PvE content, and another one who thinks people who log onto kill dragons don't care about their dps so won't consider them in the combat decisions.16 -
SipofMaim✭✭✭✭
I have it on good authority they're getting consistent input from seasoned veteran player who knows how skills work from his own experience Gilliam the Rogue.0 -
Vlad9425✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Cast time Ultimates and removal of class identity is 100% proof that they are balancing the game around noobs now.2 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MeadDrinker02 wrote: »MeadDrinker02 wrote: »Like seriously.. Higher the top 10 PVPers of each class and pit them against each other to see if the skills are OP or something, like I dunno.. Anyone else have any bright ideas?
Just like in the real world, trying to cater to the top 1% of your population (aka The Epeeners™) will make for a really *** experience for the remaining 99% (aka The Casuals™).
This seems like an all around bad idea ...
Ah! So that's why ZOS is nerfing everything down to the ground cuz they want to water down this game to please the majority of the people that suck at this game! Makes sense now!
No.https://youtu.be/Yb9H1kwF25w
GilliamtheRogue 1:01:50 min: "..what kind of players experience the game in different ways, and what is our target audience with some these changes. So like in some of these cases it's a numbers game which not everyone really cares about. The average player who's going to come on and just kill some dragons or stuff like that, they don't care if they're spammable is doing a billion damage..." (Emphasis mine.)
Wheeler: "Well I would."
They tried to walk it back, but it was pretty clear.
They go on to to say they are focused on the end game group. And that the endgame players "...thats's where a lot of the number balancing, in terms of why things get buffed or nerfed is, like, its focused on that group in terms of making sure that we have a healthy game that everyone can experience..." (Again emphasis mine.)
They are focused on the 1% the other 99% are not their "focus". That is why the game is suffering.
The combat team consists of a guy who does not do PvE content, and another one who thinks people who log onto kill dragons don't care about their dps so won't consider them in the combat decisions.
I don't really understand the griping about what was said.
Are people seriously suggesting that PVEcombat should be balanced around overland players doing dailies to hunt World Bosses?
Sure, what he said sounds terrible, but unless someone thinks that dragon dailies are a better measure of PVE combat balance than, say, actual role-required PVE group content that you can't just call in extra buddies from zone chat if you need help, he's not wrong.2 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭No dude. No more niche players who only understand(or care about) how 0.07% of the game works. We've had enough of that and it's the reason we're in such a mess right now. No thanks.PC/Xbox NA Mindmender|Swashbuckler Supreme|Planes Breaker|Dawnbringer|Godslayer|Immortal Redeemer|Gryphon Heart|Tick-tock Tormentor|Dro-m'Athra Destroyer|Stormproof|Grand Overlord|Grand Mastercrafter|Master Grappler|Tamriel Hero7 -
Gilvoth✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MeadDrinker02 wrote: »I hope when you are making these nerfs to skills you are listening to seasoned veteran players that knows how the skills work and can judge them on there own playing experiences AND NOT listening to newbs that don't know how skills work or to play the game for that matter.. In other words.. I hope you are making these decisions based on sound judgment from the pros and not just based on a couple of n00bs complaining..
every ones feedback is valuable and worth listening to.2 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MeadDrinker02 wrote: »
Ah! So that's why ZOS is nerfing everything down to the ground cuz they want to water down this game to please the majority of the people that suck at this game! Makes sense now!
Just like in the real world, trying to cater to the top 1% of your population (aka The Epeeners™) will make for a really *** experience for the remaining 99% (aka The Casuals™).MeadDrinker02 wrote: »Like seriously.. Higher the top 10 PVPers of each class and pit them against each other to see if the skills are OP or something, like I dunno.. Anyone else have any bright ideas?
This seems like an all around bad idea ...
Why is it that people who whine about other people whining are always the ones whining way more than the ones they accuse of whining?
You asked for everyone and their mother who ever managed to kill you to get nerfed and now that it has become a reality, you want to blame it on the "n00bs" that don't even PvP.
8 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »MeadDrinker02 wrote: »MeadDrinker02 wrote: »Like seriously.. Higher the top 10 PVPers of each class and pit them against each other to see if the skills are OP or something, like I dunno.. Anyone else have any bright ideas?
Just like in the real world, trying to cater to the top 1% of your population (aka The Epeeners™) will make for a really *** experience for the remaining 99% (aka The Casuals™).
This seems like an all around bad idea ...
Ah! So that's why ZOS is nerfing everything down to the ground cuz they want to water down this game to please the majority of the people that suck at this game! Makes sense now!
No.https://youtu.be/Yb9H1kwF25w
GilliamtheRogue 1:01:50 min: "..what kind of players experience the game in different ways, and what is our target audience with some these changes. So like in some of these cases it's a numbers game which not everyone really cares about. The average player who's going to come on and just kill some dragons or stuff like that, they don't care if they're spammable is doing a billion damage..." (Emphasis mine.)
Wheeler: "Well I would."
They tried to walk it back, but it was pretty clear.
They go on to to say they are focused on the end game group. And that the endgame players "...thats's where a lot of the number balancing, in terms of why things get buffed or nerfed is, like, its focused on that group in terms of making sure that we have a healthy game that everyone can experience..." (Again emphasis mine.)
They are focused on the 1% the other 99% are not their "focus". That is why the game is suffering.
The combat team consists of a guy who does not do PvE content, and another one who thinks people who log onto kill dragons don't care about their dps so won't consider them in the combat decisions.
I don't really understand the griping about what was said.
Are people seriously suggesting that PVEcombat should be balanced around overland players doing dailies to hunt World Bosses?
Sure, what he said sounds terrible, but unless someone thinks that dragon dailies are a better measure of PVE combat balance than, say, actual role-required PVE group content that you can't just call in extra buddies from zone chat if you need help, he's not wrong.
The problem is that instead of targeting the techniques the higher tier players use, they took the lazier way and just nerfed everyone.
We can talk about animation canceling, or light attack weaving here, but it goes beyond that. They could target synergies and techniques that are over performing. Or maybe that high end armor or weapon can be toned down?
If they did slight nerfs to all of that (and by the way I hate ANY nerfs) they could have targeted the high end output without hurting the common player.
Let’s say that right now that dps who is pumping out 100k dps gets knocked down to 75k. Most if not all current endgame activities would still be open to them. But that other guy who is currently doing 20k would get knocked down to about 15k (both being 25% declines). So now what endgame activities can they do?
A targeted approach would have been better for everyone. But the attitude they showed is the core of the problem, this weird disdain toward the common player is really disturbing.
I don’t like PvP, but at least in Cyrodiil I can pull out a siege engine and feel I am contributing. There is no pve equivalent. Everyone has to pull their own weight in dungeons and trials. So hurting the lower tier players basically stops them from doing that content. They (ZOS) need to be smarter with the balancing, but this combat team is not up to that kind of challenge.10 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MeadDrinker02 wrote: »I hope when you are making these nerfs to skills you are listening to seasoned veteran players that knows how the skills work and can judge them on there own playing experiences AND NOT listening to newbs that don't know how skills work or to play the game for that matter.. In other words.. I hope you are making these decisions based on sound judgment from the pros and not just based on a couple of n00bs complaining..
every ones feedback is valuable and worth listening to.
Everyone's feedback is worth being considered. That doesn't mean its useful in every situation.
New players' feedback is of very limited usefulness when it comes to balancing PVP.
When I started to PVP, I got deleted in about 2 seconds because I didnt know the importance of crit resistance, and even once I got better, it was obvious I had a lot to learn. Those were L2Play issues, and nothing I considered taking to ZOS to talk about combat balance.
New players can give good feedback about how new players experience ESO PVP. Mine would have been, at the time, "Wow, I die less when I run with a group who knows what they are doing!"
What they can't give is good feedback about combat balance because that requires perspective and experience that they just don't have. When I started PVP, I did NOT have the perspective to offer any useful feedback on gameplay balance. I was too busy learning to play.3 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »MeadDrinker02 wrote: »I hope when you are making these nerfs to skills you are listening to seasoned veteran players that knows how the skills work and can judge them on there own playing experiences AND NOT listening to newbs that don't know how skills work or to play the game for that matter.. In other words.. I hope you are making these decisions based on sound judgment from the pros and not just based on a couple of n00bs complaining..
every ones feedback is valuable and worth listening to.
Everyone's feedback is worth being considered. That doesn't mean its useful in every situation.
New players' feedback is of very limited usefulness when it comes to balancing PVP.
When I started to PVP, I got deleted in about 2 seconds because I didnt know the importance of crit resistance, and even once I got better, it was obvious I had a lot to learn. Those were L2Play issues, and nothing I considered taking to ZOS to talk about combat balance.
New players can give good feedback about how new players experience ESO PVP. Mine would have been, at the time, "Wow, I die less when I run with a group who knows what they are doing!"
What they can't give is good feedback about combat balance because that requires perspective and experience that they just don't have. When I started PVP, I did NOT have the perspective to offer any useful feedback on gameplay balance. I was too busy learning to play.
Y'know, this brings up a fair point, and I think something could be done to make this simpler. In every discord I'm in, we get "tags" that indicate which content we've completed and our overall level of expertise, based on the amount of content completed. It allows players who may have questions to decide if the person answering their questions is an actual expert, or just someone with a valid opinion. If we had something like that here, it might help devs consider how to interpret some of the input being given and help to avoid some of these silly changes designed to improve skills/aspects [of] the game for a tiny potion of the game, while making it useless to the entire rest of the game.
Make the tags something that can be chosen by the users themselves, and they could self identify with all of the parts of the game they engage with (PvP, PvE, RP, Crafting, Housing, 4 or 12 person content, vet, DLC, HM, solo, group, etc). It allows us to determine who we should even be engaging with in a conversation. I'm not going to get into an argument about end game mechanics with someone who has never done anything more than vet Craglorns, because it'd be a waste of both of our times given they don't have any experience in that department. Likewise, I wouldn't expect someone to pay any attention to me if I popped off about something pertaining to RP or trading, because I don't have the first clue about any of that stuff, and my opinion wouldn't be helpful to the conversation or useful for input that might make it to the devs.
Just an idea, and I'm sure someone will "hate" it (there's always that guy that hates everything everyone says), but there it is.PC/Xbox NA Mindmender|Swashbuckler Supreme|Planes Breaker|Dawnbringer|Godslayer|Immortal Redeemer|Gryphon Heart|Tick-tock Tormentor|Dro-m'Athra Destroyer|Stormproof|Grand Overlord|Grand Mastercrafter|Master Grappler|Tamriel Hero0 -
ZOS_RogerJ✭✭✭✭Remember to keep the thread civil, constructive and on-topic.The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
Forum Rules | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Home Page | Help Site0 -
Skullderic✭✭✭MeadDrinker02 wrote: »Like seriously.. Don't you have people working at ZOS testing their own game 24/7?
Ofcorse not, Thats what PTS is for Duh..
Every time Zos trys to balance or fix skills, it always make 1 or 2 Class OP as hell, then they nurf *** & balance to fix those class & make 2 other Classes OP. I really don't thing they get what theyre doing.
Best fix is to go back 3 years ago w/ alll the Classes, Skills Etc. not one Class was OP then.Edited by Skullderic on October 2, 2019 8:43PMGert Soem!!0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »MeadDrinker02 wrote: »I hope when you are making these nerfs to skills you are listening to seasoned veteran players that knows how the skills work and can judge them on there own playing experiences AND NOT listening to newbs that don't know how skills work or to play the game for that matter.. In other words.. I hope you are making these decisions based on sound judgment from the pros and not just based on a couple of n00bs complaining..
every ones feedback is valuable and worth listening to.
Everyone's feedback is worth being considered. That doesn't mean its useful in every situation.
New players' feedback is of very limited usefulness when it comes to balancing PVP.
When I started to PVP, I got deleted in about 2 seconds because I didnt know the importance of crit resistance, and even once I got better, it was obvious I had a lot to learn. Those were L2Play issues, and nothing I considered taking to ZOS to talk about combat balance.
New players can give good feedback about how new players experience ESO PVP. Mine would have been, at the time, "Wow, I die less when I run with a group who knows what they are doing!"
What they can't give is good feedback about combat balance because that requires perspective and experience that they just don't have. When I started PVP, I did NOT have the perspective to offer any useful feedback on gameplay balance. I was too busy learning to play.
The goal is to improve the game for the majority of the players. The majority of players fall between noob and elite. Those are the players that need to be considered and the players that should be listened to. Listening to only the players with the nimblest fingers is a great way to break the game for most the population.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."7 -
xxthir13enxx✭✭✭✭✭
✭It’s almost like they should have a Class Rep program or something....
Oh...wait.....0 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »MeadDrinker02 wrote: »I hope when you are making these nerfs to skills you are listening to seasoned veteran players that knows how the skills work and can judge them on there own playing experiences AND NOT listening to newbs that don't know how skills work or to play the game for that matter.. In other words.. I hope you are making these decisions based on sound judgment from the pros and not just based on a couple of n00bs complaining..
every ones feedback is valuable and worth listening to.
Everyone's feedback is worth being considered. That doesn't mean its useful in every situation.
New players' feedback is of very limited usefulness when it comes to balancing PVP.
When I started to PVP, I got deleted in about 2 seconds because I didnt know the importance of crit resistance, and even once I got better, it was obvious I had a lot to learn. Those were L2Play issues, and nothing I considered taking to ZOS to talk about combat balance.
New players can give good feedback about how new players experience ESO PVP. Mine would have been, at the time, "Wow, I die less when I run with a group who knows what they are doing!"
What they can't give is good feedback about combat balance because that requires perspective and experience that they just don't have. When I started PVP, I did NOT have the perspective to offer any useful feedback on gameplay balance. I was too busy learning to play.
The goal is to improve the game for the majority of the players. The majority of players fall between noob and elite. Those are the players that need to be considered and the players that should be listened to. Listening to only the players with the nimblest fingers is a great way to break the game for most the population.
Sure. That's why there's no substitute for the Devs actually experiencing how PVP is played on the Live servers.
10 elite players dueling it out on the PTS can't cover every situation while inexperienced players are going to struggle with certain skills/builds just because they are inexperienced.
The best testers, whether that be Devs and Class Reps or regular players, are people with enough experience and perspective to know what's a real problem and what's a Learn 2 Play situation.0 -
ThePlayer✭✭✭✭ZOS should make the exact opposite, refer to a greater number of players and not only hear the voices of 30 elite players.
I give a simple example, go and make one of the last dlc in veteran with a random group, 60% of the time (at least) you find players who are not able to complete them, not for tactics but only because they are not able in terms of experience, of DPS, or in the use of the class; this because in creating the last dlc dungeons ZOS made reference, only to the elite players words.
Now it is also fair to make increasingly difficult content for veteran players but you must make sure that this content in veteran is closed to players who think they can do it, for example a revenue lock if at least 4 other dlc vet dungeons are not completed , so at least you don't encounter prolonged wasted time.
P.S. for pvp builds you cannot refer to the top players, i understood something of the top players (especially those who use only one class) they always want their own type class in god mode :smiley0 -
xeha_arwen11✭✭✭✭MeadDrinker02 wrote: »I hope when you are making these nerfs to skills you are listening to seasoned veteran players that knows how the skills work and can judge them on there own playing experiences AND NOT listening to newbs that don't know how skills work or to play the game for that matter.. In other words.. I hope you are making these decisions based on sound judgment from the pros and not just based on a couple of n00bs complaining..
Like SkerKro said, most of the threads asking for nerfs are from the "pros". Not newer players. The "pros" got what they asked for. Now the entire player base has to deal with it.
And here's yet another thread of arrogant elitism and toxicity. You might as well be spitting venom when you call them "n00bs". Stop being rude, and STOP blaming new players and casuals for so many problems in this game. As I have already said, it's the virulent, constant complaining of the "elites" that is to blame for many things.
Your attitude towards newer players and casuals is abhorrent. New players and casuals have every right to voice their opinion. It's important that ZOS sees how the game is treating all of their player base. There are plenty of non-pro players who could give very useful insight into the game. Listening only to people who consider themselves "pros" has gotten us into terrible situations.
And the majority of people don't "suck" at this game. Yet another disgusting elitist thing to say.
1 -
ChunkyCat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ZoS routinely asks for my personal opinion on what sets to nerf.
63 percent? Sounds good.
2 -
Canned_Apples✭✭✭✭✭
✭MeadDrinker02 wrote: »Like seriously.. Higher the top 10 PVPers of each class and pit them against each other to see if the skills are OP or something, like I dunno.. Anyone else have any bright ideas?
yeah. do this.
It's like every class is running the same d-swing d-swing onslaught executioner combo.0 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »MeadDrinker02 wrote: »Like seriously.. Higher the top 10 PVPers of each class and pit them against each other to see if the skills are OP or something, like I dunno.. Anyone else have any bright ideas?
Top 10 PVPers might help figure out balance in dueling.
For Cyrodiil? The best thing the Devs could do is play on the Live servers. Play a lot. Get a feel for what skills are commonly used in small scale and large scale fights and how skills behave in high lag. Figure out what skills are really overpowered and what's just L2Play. (The next best thing is to pick Class Reps with a wide variety of experience in PVP.)
Testing on PTS will never accurately replicate the experience of actually PVPing in Live Cyrodiil.
The top 10 PvPers aren't duelists and you know that. The best PvPers can perform across a variety of situations from 1v1 to group play. But skills are better balanced around small/medium scale play because their function is the most critical there. Bigger groups already have the advantage in numbers and available skills. And in that range you have a lot of really good players who dont have a huge ego like duelists. Just being good at duels, imo, doesn't make you a top PvPer. The Devs should be playing open world at peak and off hours for sure, but they dont have the time to put into this game that some streamers can or just people who play a lot and are really good. And they need that perspective.Edited by Vapirko on October 3, 2019 2:15AM0 -
Mr_Walker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »For Cyrodiil? The best thing the Devs could do is play on the Live servers. Play a lot. Get a feel for what skills are commonly used in small scale and large scale fights and how skills behave in high lag.
So, right now that would be jabs. And also, jabs. Then, later, they will see... jabs!0