How does ZOS math work?

Holycannoli

So the latest patch notes say this:

In a future patch during this PTS cycle, we will be increasing the total damage of any Damage over Time abilities that were adjusted in PTS v5.2.0 by approximately 20% to reduce situations where many of the abilities felt difficult to maintain outside of nanosecond perfect rotation. This means there will be an overall reduction in damage from DoT abilities of approximately 33% compared to what is currently on the Live megaservers.

And I'll use my most-used DoT as an example, Poison Injection:

Scalebreaker August patch:

Bow

Poison Arrow:
Increased the cost to 2700 from 2430 on all morphs.
Decreased the initial hit damage by approximately 17% on all morphs.
Increased the damage over time portion on all morphs by approximately 78% per tick.
Venom Arrow (morph): This ability now ranks up in cost reduction rather than 1.1% damage; the final base cost is 2430.
Poison Injection (morph): Reduced the total execute multiplier of this morph to 100% from 260%.

Let's say the DoT portion of Poison Injection was 1,000 (easy number to use). With this patch the skill costs more, the initial hit is less and the execute multiplier is nerfed from 260% to 100%, but the DOT damage increased from 1,000 to 1,780. That makes up for the loss of execute and it's still a good skill to slot. 1,780 damage now when it used to be 1,000 with a greater execute.

PTS 5.2.0:

Bow

Poison Arrow: Decreased the damage per tick of this ability and its morphs by approximately 63%.

It's nerfed from 1,780 damage to 659. Huge nerf.

PTS 5.2.2 it's announced DoTs affected by 5.2.0 will be increased by 20%, and that will bring them about 33% lower than the August patch

659 will be buffed to 791 damage.

791 damage is not 33% lower than 1,780. It's closer to a 45% reduction which is functionally similar to a 50% nerf and is still worse than before all these patches even began in August.

Am I missing something in how their math works?

VaranisArano

I think, and this might be my misinterpretation, that 5.2.2 supersedes the previous ones.

So the operating principle should be "This means there will be an overall reduction in damage from DoT abilities of approximately 33% compared to what is currently on the Live megaservers."

Basically Live - 33% = New Value.

So if the Live value were 1000, the new value will be 666. (Heh!)

If your Poison Arrow DOT is 1,780 on Live, the new value should be 33% less, or 1,175.

Assuming I'm reading that right.

WrathOfInnos

I was wondering the same thing. Here’s my best guess:

DoTs in Scalebreaker were about 2.5X a spammable. 5.2.0 reduced this by 50% to 1.25X a spammable. Now they are saying Dragonhold DoTs will be 33% weaker than in Scalebreaker or 1.68X a spammable.

The confusing part is the “20%” since 1.25 x 120% =/= 1.68. I’m assuming that the 20% does not use the 5.2.0 values as a baseline and instead is looking at the Scalebreaker values. Instead of nerfing DoTs 50%, they nerfed them 30%, resulting in a “20% increase” between PTS patches.

Holycannoli

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think, and this might be my misinterpretation, that 5.2.2 supersedes the previous ones.

So the operating principle should be "This means there will be an overall reduction in damage from DoT abilities of approximately 33% compared to what is currently on the Live megaservers."

Basically Live - 33% = New Value.

So if the Live value were 1000, the new value will be 666. (Heh!)

If your Poison Arrow DOT is 1,780 on Live, the new value should be 33% less, or 1,175.

Assuming I'm reading that right.

I hope but since it says "that were adjusted in PTS v5.2.0" I'm assuming they mean they're working off that adjustment.

Gnortranermara

The math doesn't add up - which is exactly what we ought to expect, given their track record.

PTS 5.2.0 + 20%
1.25 * 1.2 = 1.5x

Live - 33%
2.5 * .667 = 1.67x

The disparity is most likely because 5.2.0 had an unrelated AOE buff which offset part of the DOT nerf. Now in 5.2.2 they cherry-picked the most favorable numbers instead of telling customers the full truth. It's a typical, dishonest attempt at damage control because so many people are quitting. These unreliable numbers from the company obscure the reality of things, but it looks like AOE will get a ~33% nerf compared to live while single-target DOTs get nerfed by ~40%.

The smart thing to do, which dozens of customers have advocated for the past 2 weeks, is to keep DOT's at 1.75x-2.0x, and nerf light attacks instead of trashing our skills.

Emma_Overload

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

The math doesn't add up - which is exactly what we ought to expect, given their track record.

PTS 5.2.0 + 20%
1.25 * 1.2 = 1.5x

Live - 33%
2.5 * .666 = 1.65x

The disparity is most likely because 5.2.0 had an unrelated AOE buff which offset part of the DOT nerf. Now in 5.2.2 they cherry-picked the most favorable numbers instead of telling customers the full truth. It's a typical, dishonest attempt at damage control because so many people are quitting. These unreliable numbers from the company obscure the reality of things, but it looks like AOE will get a ~33% nerf compared to live while single-target DOTs get nerfed by ~40%.

The smart thing to do, which dozens of customers have advocated for the past 2 weeks, is to keep DOT's at 1.75x-2.0x, and nerf light attacks instead of trashing our skills.

I agreed with everything you said right up until "nerf light attacks".

Light attacks have nothing to do with DOTs, so I don't even understand where that came from. Anyway, nerfing them any more would make light attacks pitiful in PvP, where you are lucky to see a LA crit for 2K. The last thing we need to do is reduce damage for skilled players! Those 40K light attacks you see on Iron Atro dummy parses are ridiculous and irrelevant if your name is not Liko or some other Hodor guy.

Wayshuba

VaranisArano wrote: »

I think, and this might be my misinterpretation, that 5.2.2 supersedes the previous ones.

So the operating principle should be "This means there will be an overall reduction in damage from DoT abilities of approximately 33% compared to what is currently on the Live megaservers."

Basically Live - 33% = New Value.

So if the Live value were 1000, the new value will be 666. (Heh!)

If your Poison Arrow DOT is 1,780 on Live, the new value should be 33% less, or 1,175.

Assuming I'm reading that right.

This is how I read it as well. With the ability however you aren't gaining anything yet the cost has still increased by 10%. Your initial hit is still 17% less (so 830 if it was originally 1,000) while your Dot with the new adjustments will be 1,175. So total damage output will be 2,005 compared to say U22 being a base of 2,000 (1,000 initial hit plus 1,000 DoT). So you are basically getting a 2% increase over U22 but they still increased the cost for it by 10%.

Better than was initially proposed but it is basically what you had in U22. So it leads to this question - Exactly what was the goal of these audits if you are basically reverting the skills back to what they were in U22?

Moloch1514

Common-core math, rather than good old fashioned "real math".

Animus-ESO

Emma_Overload wrote: »

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

The math doesn't add up - which is exactly what we ought to expect, given their track record.

PTS 5.2.0 + 20%
1.25 * 1.2 = 1.5x

Live - 33%
2.5 * .666 = 1.65x

The disparity is most likely because 5.2.0 had an unrelated AOE buff which offset part of the DOT nerf. Now in 5.2.2 they cherry-picked the most favorable numbers instead of telling customers the full truth. It's a typical, dishonest attempt at damage control because so many people are quitting. These unreliable numbers from the company obscure the reality of things, but it looks like AOE will get a ~33% nerf compared to live while single-target DOTs get nerfed by ~40%.

The smart thing to do, which dozens of customers have advocated for the past 2 weeks, is to keep DOT's at 1.75x-2.0x, and nerf light attacks instead of trashing our skills.

I agreed with everything you said right up until "nerf light attacks".

Light attacks have nothing to do with DOTs, so I don't even understand where that came from. Anyway, nerfing them any more would make light attacks pitiful in PvP, where you are lucky to see a LA crit for 2K. The last thing we need to do is reduce damage for skilled players! Those 40K light attacks you see on Iron Atro dummy parses are ridiculous and irrelevant if your name is not Liko or some other Hodor guy.

What he's trying to say is instead of nerfing over all dps by killing dots just nerf light attacks. This helps noobs because it makes them less important and helps the sky high dps problem by reducing damage

Holycannoli

Wayshuba wrote: »

This is how I read it as well. With the ability however you aren't gaining anything yet the cost has still increased by 10%. Your initial hit is still 17% less (so 830 if it was originally 1,000) while your Dot with the new adjustments will be 1,175. So total damage output will be 2,005 compared to say U22 being a base of 2,000 (1,000 initial hit plus 1,000 DoT). So you are basically getting a 2% increase over U22 but they still increased the cost for it by 10%.

Better than was initially proposed but it is basically what you had in U22. So it leads to this question - Exactly what was the goal of these audits if you are basically reverting the skills back to what they were in U22?

IF that's how it works. We don't yet know what they're buffing 20%. A 20% buff to 5.2.0 damage is a bandaid on a gushing wound and still leaves certain skills (like my beloved Poison Injection) worse than before all this started with Scalebreaker.