The age old problem: Geodes

Skarbrand666

You may be thinking "Thats not a lot of geodes, why is this discussion being started again", but thats just two of my characters, and the second is literally only 50 stone geodes
Why is there a 200 transmute stone cap? I fail to see the purpose of it, other than to encourage buying inventory space through the crown store if you're in a hurry, because these things don't stack, and destroying them is a waste of time and effort.
They should really either stack, or the stone cap be removed.

x48rph

It's the same as anything else. It forces you to decide what to keep and what not to so you can't just hoard piles of everything.

VaranisArano

The transmute cap exists for a couple reasons.
A. So players don't freely stack up tons of transmute stones and then immediately transmute gear for the next patch. Players can stack up lots of stones, but as you've noted, it requires investment in inventory. There's a big incentive to use your stones or lose them or have them take up too much space.
B. So players subscribe for the extra 100 transmute stone storage, for convenience or extending the "use them or lose them" limit.

(A) is the most important. Transmutation was never intended to be the primary way that players got gear in the trait they wanted. ZOS still wants players grinding in order to get their gear.

So by limiting the amount of transmute stones and geode most players will store, ZOS is able to limit the use of transmutation for most players.

Now, dedicated PVPers and players who regularly reach Tier 1 in the 30 day campaigns tend to be overflowing in transmute geodes. That's not necessarily a bad thing for ZOS. First, as you noted, it takes inventory to store those geodes, so those players also has incentives to use them. Second, it means that PVP players have to grind PVE content less for BOP gear because they have more transmute geodes on hand. Finally, it takes dedicated, sustained effort reaching Tier 1 on multiple characters to reach the point where you can transmute multiple sets every update. Instead of grinding for the PVE BOP set, players are basically grinding in PVP, so its a wash for ZOS.


From a QOL or "player happiness" standpoint, the transmute cap doesnt make sense.

From the perspective of Devs who want players running the new content to be the primary way of acquiring sets in the preferred trait, the transmute cap makes perfect sense.

Raideen

VaranisArano wrote: »

The transmute cap exists for a couple reasons.
A. So players don't freely stack up tons of transmute stones and then immediately transmute gear for the next patch. Players can stack up lots of stones, but as you've noted, it requires investment in inventory. There's a big incentive to use your stones or lose them or have them take up too much space.
B. So players subscribe for the extra 100 transmute stone storage, for convenience or extending the "use them or lose them" limit.

(A) is the most important. Transmutation was never intended to be the primary way that players got gear in the trait they wanted. ZOS still wants players grinding in order to get their gear.

So by limiting the amount of transmute stones and geode most players will store, ZOS is able to limit the use of transmutation for most players.

Now, dedicated PVPers and players who regularly reach Tier 1 in the 30 day campaigns tend to be overflowing in transmute geodes. That's not necessarily a bad thing for ZOS. First, as you noted, it takes inventory to store those geodes, so those players also has incentives to use them. Second, it means that PVP players have to grind PVE content less for BOP gear because they have more transmute geodes on hand. Finally, it takes dedicated, sustained effort reaching Tier 1 on multiple characters to reach the point where you can transmute multiple sets every update. Instead of grinding for the PVE BOP set, players are basically grinding in PVP, so its a wash for ZOS.


From a QOL or "player happiness" standpoint, the transmute cap doesnt make sense.

From the perspective of Devs who want players running the new content to be the primary way of acquiring sets in the preferred trait, the transmute cap makes perfect sense.

Wow that is a pretty in depth answer with either a lot of assumptions, or come from a place of knowledge.

Do you have a link to where the devs have talked about this in depth so I can verify this information myself?

VaranisArano

Raideen wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The transmute cap exists for a couple reasons.
A. So players don't freely stack up tons of transmute stones and then immediately transmute gear for the next patch. Players can stack up lots of stones, but as you've noted, it requires investment in inventory. There's a big incentive to use your stones or lose them or have them take up too much space.
B. So players subscribe for the extra 100 transmute stone storage, for convenience or extending the "use them or lose them" limit.

(A) is the most important. Transmutation was never intended to be the primary way that players got gear in the trait they wanted. ZOS still wants players grinding in order to get their gear.

So by limiting the amount of transmute stones and geode most players will store, ZOS is able to limit the use of transmutation for most players.

Now, dedicated PVPers and players who regularly reach Tier 1 in the 30 day campaigns tend to be overflowing in transmute geodes. That's not necessarily a bad thing for ZOS. First, as you noted, it takes inventory to store those geodes, so those players also has incentives to use them. Second, it means that PVP players have to grind PVE content less for BOP gear because they have more transmute geodes on hand. Finally, it takes dedicated, sustained effort reaching Tier 1 on multiple characters to reach the point where you can transmute multiple sets every update. Instead of grinding for the PVE BOP set, players are basically grinding in PVP, so its a wash for ZOS.


From a QOL or "player happiness" standpoint, the transmute cap doesnt make sense.

From the perspective of Devs who want players running the new content to be the primary way of acquiring sets in the preferred trait, the transmute cap makes perfect sense.

Wow that is a pretty in depth answer with either a lot of assumptions, or come from a place of knowledge.

Do you have a link to where the devs have talked about this in depth so I can verify this information myself?

Actually, yes. I've looked it up in the past when people asked me to cite sources. Its been a awhile since ZOS introduced Transmutation, so its not surprising that many players arent as familiar with ZOS' stated intentions.

Here's ZOS's comments when they were in the process of rolling out Transmutation on the PTS. Nor has ZOS made any more recent comments on Transmutation that I could find.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373097/pts-patch-notes-v3-2-1

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Transmutation
Developer Comments:

The goal of Transmutation is to provide you with a way to acquire your ideal traits in a way which is less dependent on RNG, without trivializing changing equipment traits or making it incredibly time consuming.The primary sources of Transmute Crystals are guaranteed drops from content you're likely already doing to collect your gear, such as Pledges, the group finder daily random Dungeon, Trial weekly quests, Veteran arena completions, and end of campaign PvP rewards.

Though it was also rather interesting for me to see that during the PTS ZOS increased the crystal drops from various activities, increased the amount of crystals required from 40 to 50, and had to make it so that Transmute Geodes didn't stack because of a bug.


As well as: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4505195#Comment_4505195

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The new Transmutation system is intended as a way to assist you in obtaining the trait you desire for your gear as you play, but not be the primary way to obtain it. You'll obtain Transmutation Crystals as you play the content you're already participating in, but it isn't meant to be something you get immediately. We want you to feel like you have a way to eventually get the trait you want.

None of that specifically addressed things like inventory issues, but why those exist are pretty obvious when we look at how ZOS handles other inventory issues to push players towards ESO+ as a storage solution.

redspecter23

No other currency has a cap in place specifically to create an inventory issue as a result. In fact, Undaunted keys recently went the reverse route and consolidated key stacks from multiple toons into one currency slot. You could make an argument that event tickets have a cap that promotes spending them, but there really isn't a way to bypass that cap in any way.

If ZOS really, really wants transmutes to be an inventory burden, I guess that's up to them, but the whole system feels sloppy to me. Create a cap, then allow you to bypass the cap using inventory space instead. It just feels clunky and lacks elegance.

VaranisArano

If anyone is interested, the reason Transmute Geodes used to stack and now don't:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/373097/pts-patch-notes-v3-2-1/p1

"Transmutation Geodes will no longer stack, which was causing an issue where using multiple Transmutation Geodes in quick succession would cause you not to get any Transmute Crystals."

Skarbrand666

At the very least, i'd like it if they could be BANKED, or moved to other characters.

Taleof2Cities

Skarbrand666 wrote: »

At the very least, i'd like it if they could be BANKED, or moved to other characters.

Are you sure you read @VaranisArano’s reply?

Hoarding transmute geodes, which creates a burden on inventory, is an intentional result of the system.

You’re encouraged to use them or destroy them.

idk

Skarbrand666 wrote: »

At the very least, i'd like it if they could be BANKED, or moved to other characters.

As tales already suggested, read what Varanis has provided to this thread. It gets to the heart of why Zos has designed it as it is. Just saying you want it to be differently is really empty words unless you are able to address the reasoning behind the current design and offer compelling reasons.

Anyone who did serious gear farming before this system was added thinks of transmutation as a blessing. If are having inventory issues because of the geodes then you clearly do not need them as much right now.

Transmute junk weapons to Nirn and decon. If you get the trait material back then sell it. I only save geodes with max crystals and purposely open them on the same bank character. The smaller ones are not worth keeping ahold of so use them or trash them.

mateosalvaje

I've gotten at least 100 gold geodes, and 99.9% of them have contained 4. One time I got 50, another time I got 18. The rest have had 4. Almost always 4...

freespirit

As idk said, transmute junk weapons to nirn then decon for the stone

Major_Lag

mateosalvaje wrote: »

I've gotten at least 100 gold geodes, and 99.9% of them have contained 4. One time I got 50, another time I got 18. The rest have had 4. Almost always 4...

I guess you are just unlucky - many of the geodes I'm getting from Rewards of the Worthy contain 5 crystals ( most are 4), and sometimes I even get a 10-crystal geode.

Based on this, I'd say that the average crystal gain from RotH geodes is roughly 5 crystals per geode.

As for the complaining about geodes not stacking, etc. - IMO there is no "geode crisis" going on.
If you are keeping multiple characters up-to-date, then you will be burning through a lot of geodes every 3 months or so.
I've set aside a single mule alt to carry all the geodes. If you fully level up the carrying capacity, that's up to about 180 full transmutes you can store up while still being able to use the character for daily crafting writs.

180 transmutes is enough to fully transmute at least 12 builds... more likely 15 or more, since at least SOME set pieces will sometimes drop in the right trait.

So I think that if anyone is complaining that they have multiple characters full of geodes, they need to seriously reconsider why are they even storing so many geodes.
As @idk has said, a good way to get rid of excess geodes is to transmute a junk weapon to Nirnhoned - at least you can get SOME value out of the geode, instead of simply destroying it for no gain.

f047ys3v3n

Currently, somewhere around 75 of my inventory slots are held up with nothing but transmute geodes of which about 50x are of the 50 stone variety. ZOS's intentions clearly were to keep us from stockpiling stones by having only a 100x cap but that is not what the real world effect has been. Since 50x geodes are a better insurance against the operatic balance changes ZOS does than anything else, piling them up in your inventory is the only rational thing to do. The net effect of ZOS cap is really only that we all fill up inventory slots with geodes in a game that suffers from general inventory problems.

Obviously, I would like to see the cap removed or to have the things stack. I would rather have this broke system than not be able to stockpile the stones though. Last thing I would want to have to do is farm right traited gear or wait the month and have to run all my toons around in PVP to be able to transmute whatever the next meta set is (since PVP monthly campaign rewards are by far the most efficient way to get stones).

Commancho

Just create mule characters to stockpile geodes and laugh at pseudobalance opinions in this thread. One slightly upgraded mule can carry 100 geodes xD

Ysbriel

The age old provlem that will have the same age old nay say my friend, for every single issue revolving it you will have an answer that does not fit your or many other players that have complained about this issue.

starkerealm

mateosalvaje wrote: »

I've gotten at least 100 gold geodes, and 99.9% of them have contained 4. One time I got 50, another time I got 18. The rest have had 4. Almost always 4...

The 50 was a campaign reward. Normal cap from a gold geode is 25. Campaign reward geodes are 50, and always contain 50.

Technically, they have a different name: 4-25 is an "Uncracked Transmutation Geode," while forced 50s are "Transmutation Geodes."

I've spoken face to face with members of the team about the geodes, it's intended behavior.

idk

starkerealm wrote: »

mateosalvaje wrote: »

I've gotten at least 100 gold geodes, and 99.9% of them have contained 4. One time I got 50, another time I got 18. The rest have had 4. Almost always 4...

The 50 was a campaign reward. Normal cap from a gold geode is 25. Campaign reward geodes are 50, and always contain 50.

For me, the only ones I save are the 50s form the end of campaign Cyrodiil reward. Nothing else is worth the space. Read my post above for the rest of the information.

Major_Lag

idk wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

mateosalvaje wrote: »

I've gotten at least 100 gold geodes, and 99.9% of them have contained 4. One time I got 50, another time I got 18. The rest have had 4. Almost always 4...

The 50 was a campaign reward. Normal cap from a gold geode is 25. Campaign reward geodes are 50, and always contain 50.

For me, the only ones I save are the 50s form the end of campaign Cyrodiil reward. Nothing else is worth the space. Read my post above for the rest of the information.

In my case, space is not (yet) an issue, so I store all of them.
Naturally, I open the 4- and 5-crystal geodes first, saving the 50's for last.

Even if you only gain a single RotW geode per day - guaranteed by simply opening a RotW container for the 1st time each day - over the course of a month that adds up to roughly 3 extra transmutes, which is quite reasonable IMO.

Currently I'm on a break from PvP, only grinding for geodes on my characters - and in 1 day I got more than enough RotW boxes to last me 2 months; that's about 6 "free" transmutes right there.

jaws343

I'll mention it in every one of these threads that spring up, the Transmute cap was put in place prior to Jewelry crafting being a thing. The only way to get non Robust, Healthy, or Arcane traits on overland/dungeon Jewelry is the transmute them. For this alone, the cap should be removed. It is impossible to farm Infused overland jewelry or bloodthirsty dungeon jewelry, so the "you are meant to farm gear with best traits not transmute for best traits" argument is ridiculous.

starkerealm

jaws343 wrote: »

I'll mention it in every one of these threads that spring up, the Transmute cap was put in place prior to Jewelry crafting being a thing. The only way to get non Robust, Healthy, or Arcane traits on overland/dungeon Jewelry is the transmute them. For this alone, the cap should be removed. It is impossible to farm Infused overland jewelry or bloodthirsty dungeon jewelry, so the "you are meant to farm gear with best traits not transmute for best traits" argument is ridiculous.

It's not, really. The point was for you to still value getting a drop in a good trait, rather than just going, "yeah, I got it, don't care."

Besides, you can carry enough to transmute a full set of jewelry in one go.

I wouldn't object to removing the cap, but it is there for an (annoying) reason.

Kagukan

If you do a decent amount of PvP you will have so many geodes you will start destroying them.

starkerealm

Kagukan wrote: »

If you do a decent amount of PvP you will have so many geodes you will start destroying them.

Yep, that's intentional.

Starlock

In my view, the issue isn't the cap - it's that there are too few ways to earn crystals. The methods of earning them currently exclude a pretty significant chunk of the player base. It always felt very, very strange to me that a currency tied to changing gear was not connected in any way to crafting activities in this game. The lack of any overland sources (exception granted for dragons in Elsweyr who drop them very, very rarely) is also very strange. There's no reason to limit transmute crystals to group content in this game. None. Doubly none after jewelry crafting dropped. Places that should also have transmute crystal drops include:

• Daily crafting quests (with odds similar to getting a gold material)
• Writ vouchers (purchasable at some ratio, perhaps 2 vouchers for 1 crystal or thereabouts)
• World bosses (at least a 1 in 5 chance of 1 crystal)
• 4-person dungeon bosses (at least a 1 in 5 chance of 1 crystal for every boss)
• Trials bosses (at least a 1 in 5 chance of 2 crystals for every boss)
• Treasure map chests (guaranteed 1 crystal per chest; finding the maps itself already introduces RNG)
• Overland chests (no more than a 1 in 5 chance with quantity scaling by chest complexity)

starkerealm

Starlock wrote: »

In my view, the issue isn't the cap - it's that there are too few ways to earn crystals. The methods of earning them currently exclude a pretty significant chunk of the player base. It always felt very, very strange to me that a currency tied to changing gear was not connected in any way to crafting activities in this game. The lack of any overland sources (exception granted for dragons in Elsweyr who drop them very, very rarely) is also very strange. There's no reason to limit transmute crystals to group content in this game. None. Doubly none after jewelry crafting dropped.

It's pretty simple really. Transmute crystals reward engaging in behavior that requires group play. You a small dose for doing your pledges. You can random into those, but you're probably doing it with friends. You get some from each trial each week. You get some from PvP.

Those are all activities that require players to actually participate, or they don't work. You can't have PvP if no one shows up. You can't run a trial if you don't have a team (basically), and you can't clear your pledges without other players. The placement of geodes is very deliberate. It's encouraging you to engage in PvP and dungeon content on a regular basis, and nudging you towards trial content.

You can do your writs alone. Actually, trying to do your writs in a group would be downright strange.

Final dungeon bosses do have a geode drop rate, by the way. It's something like 20%.

After that, there is a strong incentive not to oversupply. I realize that's kinda goofy, given how rewards for the worthy broke the supply. But, still, that's the goal. Get people to play together.

Bashev

Yep, it is a big issue. We need at least an option to store the geodes in bank and containers.

Starlock

starkerealm wrote: »

Those are all activities that require players to actually participate, or they don't work. You can't have PvP if no one shows up. You can't run a trial if you don't have a team (basically), and you can't clear your pledges without other players. The placement of geodes is very deliberate. It's encouraging you to engage in PvP and dungeon content on a regular basis, and nudging you towards trial content.

Well, it doesn't work. It just turns me off from it even more. Your mileage may vary.

The only reason I have to do dungeons is for fun. Between the RNG for gear drops and the abysmal crystal drops it's just not possible for me to get excited about the so-called rewards from doing dungeons. I've remarked on this before, but if gear wasn't BoP and if transmute crystals actually dropped regularly from ALL bosses in this content (give that 20% to ALL the bosses, not just the end boss so your generally guaranteed to get at least 1 crystal per run), the rewards would be an incentive to me. As it stands, the hurdle is so high I simply go "meh, not going to bother." I play games for fun, not to sandpaper my face off with this thing other players call "grinding."

For the record, I don't necessarily mind "grinding" in games when it's done right. This game does not do it right and that was probably a deliberate design choice driven by the money side rather than good game design. Creating nonsensical and unenjoyable grinds is the foundation of practically every play-to-pay game. I would not be surprised if within the year we see transmute crystals in the cash shop. I never thought we would see something as unscrupulous as skill lines and skyshards, but here we are so nothing is beyond consideration for this company anymore if they think they can get away with it.

Stebarnz

remove or up the limit! also make them stackable! Crazy its not, also siege stackable!

Major_Lag

starkerealm wrote: »

(...) and you can't clear your pledges without other players.

Technically, at least half of the dungeons in the game are soloable with a decent build and a modicum of player skill.
So no, you do not "need" other players to complete many of the pledges.
Although arguably you do want the help of other players, because usually it's faster to complete dungeons with a group (unless the group is exceptionally abysmal).
But that's really just nitpicking on my part.

starkerealm wrote: »

It's encouraging you to engage in PvP and dungeon content on a regular basis, and nudging you towards trial content.

Uhh... it's doing a really, really poor job of "encouraging me to engage in dungeon content".

PvE dungeons offer a vastly worse geodes per hour ratio than PvPing in Cyrodiil.
Trying to grind up transmutes by running dungeons (for the sake of transmutes, instead of just for farming sets) would be probably the most tedious grind that I can think of in all of ESO.

I can easily get 8 transmutes per month just by spending one afternoon (per month) in Cyrodiil with 5 of my characters.
Good luck trying to grind up 400 transmute crystals in a few hours by running dungeons instead

idk

Major_Lag wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

(...) and you can't clear your pledges without other players.

Technically, at least half of the dungeons in the game are soloable with a decent build and a modicum of player skill.
So no, you do not "need" other players to complete many of the pledges.
Although arguably you do want the help of other players, because usually it's faster to complete dungeons with a group (unless the group is exceptionally abysmal).
But that's really just nitpicking on my part.

starkerealm wrote: »

It's encouraging you to engage in PvP and dungeon content on a regular basis, and nudging you towards trial content.

Uhh... it's doing a really, really poor job of "encouraging me to engage in dungeon content".

PvE dungeons offer a vastly worse geodes per hour ratio than PvPing in Cyrodiil.
Trying to grind up transmutes by running dungeons (for the sake of transmutes, instead of just for farming sets) would be probably the most tedious grind that I can think of in all of ESO.

I can easily get 8 transmutes per month just by spending one afternoon (per month) in Cyrodiil with 5 of my characters.
Good luck trying to grind up 400 transmute crystals in a few hours by running dungeons instead

You are taking their comments way out of context

First off it is irrelevant if you can solo a dungeon. It is clearly designed to be group content. Nit picking on this seems to be nothing more than an attempt to argue for the sake of arguing.

Where you take their comments out of context is by suggesting they are somehow indicating you can easily get 400 crystals in a few hours of running dungeons. They did not even try to suggest anything of the sorts.

What Stark did say, and correctly stated at that, is that Zos has placed the offerings of geodes and crystals on different events that have to do with grouping. Those offerings are weighted differently with PvP and trials getting the top and second best return.

Again, it does not make sense to argue these points that Stark said as they were merely providing the example that Zos is encouraging group activities vs generic overland stuff you mentioned. Arguing with them over this is rather pointless.

Major_Lag

@idk
My point was that any claim that "geodes encourage doing PvE dungeon content" is quite baseless, because you would have to be doing dungeons over and over for days to get the same amount of geodes that you can get from spending just a few hours in Cyrodiil.

If that was ZOS' intention behind the system - to encourage players to complete PvE dungeons for geodes - then IMO it's not doing a very good job of it.

The incentive for (repeatedly) completing dungeons is, and always was, grinding for gear.
Whether in the form of loot drops, or Undaunted keys that can then be exchanged for a monster shoulder.

IMO, rewarding the player a whopping 1 transmute crystal for completing a normal pledge is just rubbing salt in the wound.

Edit:
The current system does, however, do quite a good job of bringing players into Cyrodiil for geodes... even PvEers who don't care about PvP other than to get their shiny geodes.