DPS Requirement for veteran dungeons

maddiniiLuna

Hello,

I very well know, that people are going to read the title and already hate this topic, but i think it's time to speak (or write) about it. A lot of the newer dungeons have an unofficial dps requirement - meaning that some bosses require you do to a good amount of damage to continue trough the Dungeon.

• Frost Atros at Zaan Boss in Scalecaller peak
• Stoneheart boss at Blootroot forge (third boss)
• Deathlord Bjarfrud Skjoralmor - Falkreath Hold

Just to name a few. There is also Trials like veteran Atherian Archive (actually all trials if i think about it). What i want to say is: DPS requirements are not "new" or "game-breaking", as they exist for a while. You just didn't see any official numbers or things like that.
You don't even have to see official numbers, it would be enough to only put players in the group that for example have completed the previous dungeon in veteran from the list (so basically the dungeons unlock one after another). I understand, that a pure dps requirement in numbers like "must have 20k dps" is impossible to track, but unlocking the dungeons or locking them for low CP players (Yes, champion points play a big role in terms of dps).

If i Que up with my tank and get put in a group with 200 cp in scalecaller peak it's just not possible. Please don't be offended, because you might be a good player but have low cp i in no way mean to personally attack anybody and yes there is the odd exception, where i did manage to do it with low cp players (usually this takes over an hour for a 20 minutes dungeon). I don't "blame" anybody for being low CP - in my opinion it's a miss-executed feature that leads to a huge gap between players and should never have been in place the way it is now. I have reasons to think about the CP system like this, but that's not the topic.

So 9 of 10 player i group up with have never done these dungeons before and never cared to read up about it. Then i have to be the "bad" person to say them "sorry guys we can't make it." A LOT of players lack basic eso skills (dodge, block, interrupt) and if they then also don't know mechanics you are basically looking at a secure wipe - but it's still possible with enough damage. In case you didn't notice i'm talking about high level players here lacking the ability to press right mouse button which is very very poor.


Anyway to sum it all up again: The group system should never auto-fill damage dealers, that don't do significant enough damage into dungeons like scalecaller peak. Why does the system but somebody with a 2 hand maul and heavy armor in this dungeon i don't understand. It's got to a point where it's very frustrating to run dungeon and it's just no fun at all due to the way the system creates groups.

Zenimax - Is this something that can be addressed? I'm sure the community will have a lot of ideas how to make this possible without limiting anybody in their fun, tho it's no fun for anybody do die 20 times at the same boss and spend 1 hour for basically nothing.

josiahva

Not sure what you are talking about...I have tanked vet scalecaller just fine with 200CP DPS. It is true that there are plenty of lower CP groups that might have trouble with it...but there are plenty that dont....pretty sure 20kDPS can clear every single vet dungeon in the game

Taleof2Cities

@maddiniiLuna, if you require a specific outcome from a group dungeon, you don’t use the dungeon finder ... find a pre-made group instead.

In your case, the specific outcome is just a clear in a reasonable amount of time.

VaranisArano

If you queue for randoms, you get random players who may or may not be able to pass the DLC DPS checks. Heck, even base game vCOA2 has a DPS race for its final boss.

Aside from CP requirements, ZOS doesn't seem too interested in making sure that DDs can actually do enough DPS to pass the content, any more than they are interested in making sure everyone who queues as tank will actually play a tank.

El_Borracho

I don't know how the devs could incorporate a way to know a player's average DPS. I've heard the asinine suggestion in the past that players should have to parse at some public test dummy to qualify, which might be the only way to do what the OP is asking for. Which would be something that would infuriate players across the board.

Thankfully, even in the pugs I've run in some of the dungeons mentioned (Bloodroot, SCP) the DPS has been there. In fact, the issue is rarely DPS numbers, the bigger problem is knowledge of the mechanics and experience in the dungeon.

You just have to rely on the collective common sense of the player pool. I know when I started doing dungeons, I didn't start with the vet DLC dungeons. Hopefully others do the same.

Agenericname

Unless you're talking about normal you wouldn't be matched with a cp200 anything in SCP in the RDF as the minimum is 300 for vet now. The "20 minute dungeon"comment in reference to what seems to be SCP makes me inclined to think that you're speaking of normal. There's no reason why a CP200 couldn't finish normal SCP.

MartiniDaniels

josiahva wrote: »

Not sure what you are talking about...I have tanked vet scalecaller just fine with 200CP DPS. It is true that there are plenty of lower CP groups that might have trouble with it...but there are plenty that dont....pretty sure 20kDPS can clear every single vet dungeon in the game

No. 20k dps is not enough to clear majority of vDLC dps checks. Ok, if one dps is 50k, then other can clear it with 20k of course

FrancisCrawford

Complicated gating schemes for hard content would be awful, because they would interfere with players who know what they are doing using their newer characters.

Simple gating schemes will always be very flawed.

zaria

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you queue for randoms, you get random players who may or may not be able to pass the DLC DPS checks. Heck, even base game vCOA2 has a DPS race for its final boss.

Aside from CP requirements, ZOS doesn't seem too interested in making sure that DDs can actually do enough DPS to pass the content, any more than they are interested in making sure everyone who queues as tank will actually play a tank.

Normal BC2 has two dps checks, Keeper Indril and the last boss will spam adds until you kill boss or is overrun.
You can fail both in normal, this require some setup however like an belief that AoE hurt other players and poison arrow is an war crime

Now with one shot mechanic higher dps always help as you has less time to screw up.

VaranisArano

zaria wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you queue for randoms, you get random players who may or may not be able to pass the DLC DPS checks. Heck, even base game vCOA2 has a DPS race for its final boss.

Aside from CP requirements, ZOS doesn't seem too interested in making sure that DDs can actually do enough DPS to pass the content, any more than they are interested in making sure everyone who queues as tank will actually play a tank.

Normal BC2 has two dps checks, Keeper Indril and the last boss will spam adds until you kill boss or is overrun.
You can fail both in normal, this require some setup however like an belief that AoE hurt other players and poison arrow is an war crime

Now with one shot mechanic higher dps always help as you has less time to screw up.

Maybe I'm lucky, but since ZOS revamped the Dungeon Finder levels, I've never had a group fail on a base game normal dungeon. Some long dungeons or wipes to mechanics, like Darkshade 2 when we had some first-timers, but no failures.

Now, before ZOS changed it when level 10s could end up in Fungal Grotto 2 and Banished Cells 2, that was a different story. I felt so bad for the level 10s we'd get in nWGT or nICP. I'm glad ZOS changed it.

Kurat

If you are using gf you should be aware that you may not always finish the dungeon. If you want something done play with friends, guildys, the ppl you know.
And even if you using gf, theres an option to replace ppl who prevent the group from completing the dungeon. If the problem is simply not knowing the mechs then I always explain them. If the problem is lack of skill, low dps, low cp or whatever then I let everyone know in chat and we kick. If kick fails then I'll leave.
So i dont see where the problem is. Leave gf as it is, it's working as intended.

Raisin

I think a more productive solution would be for the game to teach players better. Yes they want to promote the play-how-you-want attitude, but I still think they could give more guidance. A lot of people come into ESO with the single player TES game mindset, without MMO experience. They shouldn't have to rely on finding outside resources on Google to teach themselves a basic understanding of how to be good at the game.
Realistically, rotations are part of ESO gameplay... They should be actually mentioned in the game. People can still choose to do as they wish, but I believe many wouldn't actually mind really embracing that kind of playstyle if it was actually presented to them as something meant to be part of the ESO experience. It's just insane to me that 'play how you want' means 'no explanation on how to actually get good at playing, just do whatever'. They're not the same thing. I fully support people who do not want to go the mainstream route, but I still think it should be more accessible. Just a simple rota concept of buffs-dots-spammable would lift many people's DPS up... it's just about helping people better understand the combat.
I really don't want ESO to make vet DLC too easy, I want DPS checks to stay, all that jazz. But the game seriously neglects its duty to prepare people for certain content in the name of not forcing anything onto people. Which again, I'm also not saying they should do, I want people to have their options. But it's a fricking game. It has a design and mechanics. It had difficulties and things to learn. It's okay to give your players realistic advice on how to master the gameplay, play effectively. They do it in single player games.

Anyway, sorry if that seems off topic, but IMO that's kind of the root of this problem and I believe fixing this is a solution that's better for everyone involved. If we want the game to have any kind of skill check anywhere, passing them must be something the game enables you to do on itd own, without the players having to go out of their way to find advice not contained in the official game's guides and instructions. Just locking people out without understanding why they're not ready in the first place just creates a bad experience for many and isn't very fair. It's a bandaid solution at best.

ruengdet2515

100% you never see dps check/require for vdun/vtrial in this game forever unless you are ZoS CEO.

FearlessOne_2014

Lol, people still queue up with randos in group finder. Then turn around and complain about crap group members? Lol, what did you expect. There is a reason that they are queue for randoms, for vet DLC dungeons instead of with guildies or such.

Damn I am so glad that I'm wanted in groups. So I am not forced to the mercy of Crap Members Finder. OP you should get good and also become wanted by others. That way you are not at the mercy of Crap Member Finder.

Like the others have said already. If you demand conditions such as a clear or such. Then Crap Member Finder should be the last thing you use. Go Networking and Politicking to find others to form a Pre Made, to run with you. Leave the Crap Member Finder to the fake tanks and garbo DPSes that can't clear DPS checks.

b95fister

maddiniiLuna wrote: »

Hello,

I very well know, that people are going to read the title and already hate this topic, but i think it's time to speak (or write) about it. A lot of the newer dungeons have an unofficial dps requirement - meaning that some bosses require you do to a good amount of damage to continue trough the Dungeon.

• Frost Atros at Zaan Boss in Scalecaller peak
• Stoneheart boss at Blootroot forge (third boss)
• Deathlord Bjarfrud Skjoralmor - Falkreath Hold

Just to name a few. There is also Trials like veteran Atherian Archive (actually all trials if i think about it). What i want to say is: DPS requirements are not "new" or "game-breaking", as they exist for a while. You just didn't see any official numbers or things like that.
You don't even have to see official numbers, it would be enough to only put players in the group that for example have completed the previous dungeon in veteran from the list (so basically the dungeons unlock one after another). I understand, that a pure dps requirement in numbers like "must have 20k dps" is impossible to track, but unlocking the dungeons or locking them for low CP players (Yes, champion points play a big role in terms of dps).

If i Que up with my tank and get put in a group with 200 cp in scalecaller peak it's just not possible. Please don't be offended, because you might be a good player but have low cp i in no way mean to personally attack anybody and yes there is the odd exception, where i did manage to do it with low cp players (usually this takes over an hour for a 20 minutes dungeon). I don't "blame" anybody for being low CP - in my opinion it's a miss-executed feature that leads to a huge gap between players and should never have been in place the way it is now. I have reasons to think about the CP system like this, but that's not the topic.

So 9 of 10 player i group up with have never done these dungeons before and never cared to read up about it. Then i have to be the "bad" person to say them "sorry guys we can't make it." A LOT of players lack basic eso skills (dodge, block, interrupt) and if they then also don't know mechanics you are basically looking at a secure wipe - but it's still possible with enough damage. In case you didn't notice i'm talking about high level players here lacking the ability to press right mouse button which is very very poor.


Anyway to sum it all up again: The group system should never auto-fill damage dealers, that don't do significant enough damage into dungeons like scalecaller peak. Why does the system but somebody with a 2 hand maul and heavy armor in this dungeon i don't understand. It's got to a point where it's very frustrating to run dungeon and it's just no fun at all due to the way the system creates groups.

Zenimax - Is this something that can be addressed? I'm sure the community will have a lot of ideas how to make this possible without limiting anybody in their fun, tho it's no fun for anybody do die 20 times at the same boss and spend 1 hour for basically nothing.

My average dps in 40k on a 6mil but that includes major breech......

You can push Zaan with no poison with a combined total 40k.

I have solo’d stoneheart more times then I can count without major breech (tank dead..etc)

Deathlord you gotta do mechanics. But with a tank pre grabbing the cleanser you can one mechanic it with combined 50k dps

So these dps checks you posting are incorrect. There are many posts about asking for mechanic based not burning bosses. Here if your combined dps is not enough to skip the mechanics well then do the mechanics..... but alas here is eso fundamental problem. Those that do bad dps ( the simplest mechanic) cannot do boss mechanics because they require understanding of the game. If low dps understood the game they would have higher dps ........it’s the circle called SKILLED gameplay

Or to be condensing git gud.

Ysbriel

IF each Damage dealers are able to land 30k on a parse dummy, when they are in the dungeon with all de buffs and debuffs applied and everybody follows mechanics which includes trash mobs , well all newer dungeons can be cleared. If you go by the older veteran dungeons right about 25k DPS for both damage dealers inside the dungeon can nail the spot for older content that is. You can also notice that 30k was considered "huge" DPS when Horns of the Reach came out back in 2017

zaria

VaranisArano wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

If you queue for randoms, you get random players who may or may not be able to pass the DLC DPS checks. Heck, even base game vCOA2 has a DPS race for its final boss.

Aside from CP requirements, ZOS doesn't seem too interested in making sure that DDs can actually do enough DPS to pass the content, any more than they are interested in making sure everyone who queues as tank will actually play a tank.

Normal BC2 has two dps checks, Keeper Indril and the last boss will spam adds until you kill boss or is overrun.
You can fail both in normal, this require some setup however like an belief that AoE hurt other players and poison arrow is an war crime

Now with one shot mechanic higher dps always help as you has less time to screw up.

Maybe I'm lucky, but since ZOS revamped the Dungeon Finder levels, I've never had a group fail on a base game normal dungeon. Some long dungeons or wipes to mechanics, like Darkshade 2 when we had some first-timers, but no failures.

Now, before ZOS changed it when level 10s could end up in Fungal Grotto 2 and Banished Cells 2, that was a different story. I felt so bad for the level 10s we'd get in nWGT or nICP. I'm glad ZOS changed it.

We did not fail but we wiped lots of times. I was leveling an tank with random dungeons only so was a pretty skillpoint starved and had focused on tanking skills
And no after they changed the system things has gotten much better.

RouDeR

You can complete almost all vet dungeons (no hm) with 30k total group DPS as long as the scrubos don't die like flies and have some semi-decent knowledge of mechanics.

FierceSam

Amazingly ZOS is not your mum.

They don’t checkup on you and make sure everything is alright.

Neither does the Group Finder. It doesn’t check out your fellow players, it doesn’t rate their DPS or what skills they do and don’t have. It relies on players being honest about their roles and their abilities. If you’re not equipped for the role of Tank, don’t be cheating on your fellow players by pretending to be one. If you really don’t want to play with random players with varying abilities, habits and languages, don’t use the Group Finder.

Sure there are many things the Group Finder should do - like separate out the DLC content so ESO+ subscribers who have just started doing dungeons and are quite capable of doing regular vet dungeons don’t get shunted into DLC content they don’t know and are unprepared for (cos it’s a big step up expecting Elden Hollow and getting Scalecrawler). But that would mean players who wanted to do those dungeons would have even longer waits than they do.

If you are pugging, respect the pug. Be generous and honest, and if it’s not going to work, don’t get annoyed and rude about it.

The vast majority of the PUGs I’ve been in have been great fun and have got the job done. Some have been truly fantastic.

bmnoble

Main problem I see with this and the reason it won't get implemented is:

Locking dungeons behind DPS checks that people already had available to do, I can just imagine the outcry, if players logged on one day and found they had to unlock many of the dungeons they have had the option of doing whenever they decided they were ready.

As for this 20 minutes expectation for clearing a DLC dungeon, in a pre made group sure but in a PUG group for a Vet dungeon if it stays under an hour you likely got one of the best group your likely to get out of the group finder, more than a few go over the hour and start having to queue for replacements or disband wasting everyone's time.

maddiniiLuna

Thank you for all your contributions.

I'm not sure were the belief comes from, that i don't play a "real" tank (i do know what you mean, have seen those people many times) - i play a dragonknight tank with full team support builds (Ebon armor, Galenwes - Depends on group and situation).

As mentioned before - I have no intention of setting anybody up. I think it's not possible to track 20k dps on the dd's, without getting them angry and thus this is not an option. Instead the system could track what kind of equipment they are wearing and / or how many champion points they have. As example the system could check for the passive "Agility" which grants you flat weapon damage % on medium armor or concentration on light armor for magic penetration. If these Passive abilities are not active or not leveled, the system could lock the dungeon for the player.
It's just an example of the possibilities.

Finding people for dungeons usually takes more time then to que up for a random dungeon or specific dungeon (when you are a tank) and if you're a hard working person you don't necessarily have the time to do this or the opportunity to meet up with trial guilds at specific times and days. I like the dungeon finder for that it allows me to do what i want - when i want.

I do know, that the dps requirements for named dlc dungeons is actually quite low, but if the group composition can't make it, then it never should have been formatted by the system like this and that's my main point. The players don't necessarily have to be super skilled individuals. I don't mind dieing a few times - in fact i almost expect to die a few times, especially when i have to explain mechanics. It's often hard to understand mechanics without seeing it at least once.

Donny_Vito

If i Que up with my tank and get put in a group with 200 cp in scalecaller peak it's just not possible

Theoretically, this is not possible. You must be 300 CP to queue for DLC dungeons.

Elwendryll

I don't pug that much, and when I do, it's with a guildmate, so we have tank and DD covered.

When you queue as a DD you don't have much issues, even if all your group is bad you can carry in most dungeons. When you're a tank, it's an other story, if the group dps is 20k you're going to suffer.

Low dps players should be able to get into dungeons too hard for them and get an opportunity to learn the mechanics and get a clear with more experienced people. Sometimes you meet people with a very good attitude that you may want to run with again later on.

Group finder already has a minimum CP requirements for some dungeons, what else do you want? A dps leaderboard with only the 10% best being allowed to even join a dungeon?

Join a guild, have friends you can run with, and use the finder occasionnally when you miss 1-2 players, you can go alone, but you should know what to expect, and be prepared.

maddiniiLuna wrote: »

Thank you for all your contributions.

I'm not sure were the belief comes from, that i don't play a "real" tank (i do know what you mean, have seen those people many times) - i play a dragonknight tank with full team support builds (Ebon armor, Galenwes - Depends on group and situation).

A piece of advice, if you meet a team with bad DDs, don't run a set that gives empower when they're most likely not even weaving LAs. Maybe you should work on a build that's less supportive, something selfish to stay alive or able to do a bit of damage in case you feel like your DDs are dead weights. A traditional tank build is meant to support the DDs, if they're not doing their job, you can go for something more unconventional.

Kuramas9tails

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

if you require a specific outcome from a group dungeon, you don’t use the dungeon finder.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What SHOULD happen is ZOS should allow you the option to random queue with DLCS included or not. Which I hope they are adding that as an option since all the ones listed by OP are indeed DLCs and they said they are fixing the group finder. Even though I know I can DPS the DLCs on Vet, I don't random queue vet dungeons for fear of getting put in one of these dungeons which is a shame and fail on ZOS part because I am sure plenty of others are like that.

Odovacar

25-30k generally is considered good enough for most all vet dungeons including some DLC HM's. Anything more is icing on the cake. DPS checks are real but players not knowing mechanics kill PuG groups more than sub par DPS output, imo.

redlink1979

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

@maddiniiLuna, if you require a specific outcome from a group dungeon, you don’t use the dungeon finder ... find a pre-made group instead.

This.

Asardes

Few dungeons have hard DPS caps, unless it's a DLC hard mode; some of those are actually opposite, meaning that they punish you for doing too much damage too fast ex. vMHK HM & vRoM HM. Generally if you can pull 30K+ in a dynamic fight, sustain and not die, you're good to do any DLC dungeon, although not the HM for the newest ones. Since we have such strong sets ATM such as Relequen that basically means keeping up 2-3 DoTs and doing light & heavy attacks on top of that. Most wipes don't actually happen (just) due to low DPS, but rather lack of awareness, and people not focusing what they need to - in some fights adds are actually more dangerous than the boss, and have to be focused ASAP - ex. Vault Protector in vFV, WW and mages in vMHK HM. It's really frustrating when people dump all the DPS on the boss, then get wiped because they managed to spawn 2-3 waves of adds at the same time.

Dragonnord

The three mobs/bosses you named don't need high dps at all to be killed, not even close, just rinse and repeat mechanics. There are others in any case, but none in those three dungeons.
 

LapisLazuli99

I always followed the rule of thumb that either you are at 20k or you're not Dps. You can clear all content in the game at 20k and shouldnt really feel like you need more unless youre going for leaderboards.

akdave0

What do we healers do that cant hit your DPS cap?

Raisin

The things people necro months-old threads for......