Player friendly replacement for trials

Rungar

Ive already given you a more advanced and player friendly model for dungeons with the radial design and now i will give you an advanced system to replace trials

Nothing that i give you doesnt already exist in eso is some basic form or is not possible with eso level technology.

The raid or trial is an outdated concept from as far back as everquest. Its limitations are many and its benifits are few. The very design of it promotes an exclusivity that creates negativity for the rest of the game because the culture of it has loud voices that end up compromising additional system toward its very specific playstyle and over -needy endless demands on developers which is an impossible task as any change will potentially upset the entire system.

the Warfront:

my initial example uses a basic pve /non contact rvr variant of the existing imperial city which creates a three prong attack on molag bal's forces. Whichever faction gets to molag bal first locks the others out and gets the rewards for winning the campaign.

These campaigns are designed for 100 players per side or 300 players per instance ( more if its possible). Like the cyrodiil campaigns they have a start and a conclusion with rewards going to the victorious side and second and third place for the effort.

the map will be modified to include a number of siege-able gates and monster generators. Monster generators are not new to eso but are used sparsely like wasps or that fire thing in vvardenfell, portals in some dungeons. We will make extensive use of them from now on out.

so the three areas of imperial city will be cut off for each other in this example as its a pve warfront with rvr competition element. Each of the three areas will have a number of new gates added and monster generators set up which players will have to work through. As they defeat the gates and monster generators they can advance through each of the areas toward the center of the city both on top and underground simultaneously ( to split up/allow more players per instance).

The gate system will work on a system of up/down. That is teams underground have to do something for the teams above to advance and vice versa. The monkey wrench is that the other factions teams can also complete tasks that will hamper your efforts but not directly ( its a pve scenario with rvr elements). Whichever faction unlocks the last gate to molag bal the other teams get locked out and that team has a a chance to defeat defeat molag ball and end the campaign.

the monster generators in this warfront will be daedric portals which will be heavily defended BUT generators have to be attacked both topside and underground at the same time else they cannot be permanently closed as each generator is linked to another generator. Additionally new mobs which repair and spawn new portal sets will keep pressure on the players to keep spread out a little. Failure to address and maintain the monster generators will result in a gate being relocked preventing reinforcements/ slowing down advancement to molag bal.

the idea is to provide an endgame scenario that is fun and inclusive where everyone can contribute according to their skills. This is just one simple example but you can apply the principle to any new content with this pve/rvr type hybrid gameplay that i think eso can easily handle with its current technology and a little spreading out of players so more can be packed in.

The age of trials and raiding is over, its time to adapt to pve warfronts with rvr elements. I think thats what regular players really want for endgame pve.

UntilValhalla13

Well, that's just, your opinion, man. I certainly wouldn't want that.

MehrunesFlagon

UntilValhalla13 wrote: »

Well, that's just, your opinion, man. I certainly wouldn't want that.

Yeah ,and wtf is rvr?

VaranisArano

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

UntilValhalla13 wrote: »

Well, that's just, your opinion, man. I certainly wouldn't want that.

Yeah ,and wtf is rvr?

RvR is Realm v Realm.

idk

Rungar wrote: »

The raid or trial is an outdated concept from as far back as everquest. Its limitations are many and its benifits are few. The very design of it promotes an exclusivity that creates negativity for the rest of the game because the culture of it has loud voices that end up compromising additional system toward its very specific playstyle and over -needy endless demands on developers which is an impossible task as any change will potentially upset the entire system.

This is such a false statement. Considering there are three difficulty levels for all trials in this game it certainly does not promote any exclusivity. Even at the top levels of this game there are "training" groups to help players not on one of the top teams to learn the new trials.

For those who do not desire to be part of one of the vet trial raiding groups and deal with the heavier mechanics there is the normal vs of the dungeons which pretty much anyone/group can clear.

So to suggest the design of it promotes exclusivity is absurd or it creates negativity is absurd. The suggestion that the age of trial (PvE large group raid content) is over is pretty much in the same boat.

I agree with the others, that I would not want what is suggested.

Rungar

my statement was accurate. see any dlc dungeon for details. How do think they got that way?

VaranisArano

Rungar wrote: »

my statement was accurate. see any dlc dungeon for details. How do think they got that way?

Your suggestion is not substantially better.

A. It requires many, many more players to work together in a coordinated fashion. That's hard enough in PVE trials with only twelve people in a group, and in PVP with a max of 24 players. Most PVP guilds run less than 24 in a raid because tight coordination is really, really hard.

Even Cyrodiil zone generals don't command 100 players. At best, they say "Hey, fight there" and players go and fight however they want to fight with little in the way of real coordination.

I think the most "organized" we saw on PC/NA recently was when AotP was running 3 raids, and those were largely PUG raids. Not exactly super organized - they relied on strength of numbers (and unfortunately, the fact that the servers handled 60+ players in the same area very poorly).

Your scenario requires a lot of coordination even just between the top and underground team. Seriously, how do you see that happening? In text chat? In voice comms? (Remember that PCs have to use outside programs like Discord and Teamspeak.) Really, practically, how are you going to coordinate 100 players?

B. The more players you bring to content, the harder it is to balance. DLC dungeons are comparatively easy - balance for the competent PUGs in Groupfinder and whatever DPS you expect a decent group with a tank, healer, and 2 DDs can pump out. With 100 players per side? Of any ability level? How on earth do you balance for that so its a challenge and not just overwhelming with sheer force of numbers?

There's ways to do it - makes them split up into smaller groups to do certain objectives, for example. But that requires coordination and did I mention the problems of coordinating 100 players?

C. Performance.

Now, I don't know how well your computer/console handles large battles with over a hundred players in Cyrodiil.

Mine does NOT handle it well, and I LOVE large battles. Lots of other people have issues with Cyrodiil performance. The servers have big problems with large battles and so far ZOS best solution is to spread players out. And when we say spread out, we mean "preferably one or two keeps away, at least."

Your idea calls for a single alliance of 100 players battling it out with challenging daedra - that'll be orders of magnitude worse than the Alikr Dolmens during an exp event where at least the enemies dies pretty much as soon as they spawn. It would be orders of magnitude worse than Cyrodiil, because your 100 players are matched by presumably challenging Daedra and players can't actually spread out at all at a distance that's going to make an ounce of difference.

Now, there's ways to help with that. ZOS could split the 100 players into smaller groups and tightly instance advancement through the course...but that runs into the problem of, you guessed it, coordination!


In short, you say raids and trials are outdated, yet:
1. Your idea requires greater coordination than any trials or dungeon we currently have because of the number of players. Even greater than we see in Cyrodiil, because of the precise objectives and timing needed.
2. Your idea is harder to balance than any dungeon or trial due to the sheer number and variety of players. How do you challenge 100 players without making it even harder to coordinate?
3. Your idea is much harder on server performance than any dungeon or trial due to the number of players, and its harder on performance than the majority of Cyrodiil battles due to it being 100 players vs challenging NPCs in a small space. More instancing only means its even harder to coordinate.


Do you really think your idea is A. Feasible and B. Popular enough to warrant implementation, much less to speculate that its going to overtake dungeons and trials as the future of endgame PVE content?

MehrunesFlagon

Look at how dragon's in Elsweyr right now and ask yourself, do you really want this? Honestly it is far to laggy and what you are describing would be just as bad.

Rungar

it can be done but you wont be able to control it all and thats the whole point.

VaranisArano

Rungar wrote: »

it can be done but you wont be able to control it all and thats the whole point.

You didnt address my concerns about Coordination, Balance, and Performance. You just handwaved it away by saying "The whole point is that you can't control it."

Then, Rungar, that's not PVE group content. That's just a mass of players showing up to fight however they see fit. I've seen it in Cyrodiil enough times, and there's a reason I prefer to stay with organized guild raids - players who actually coordinate and fight as a group.

Cyrodiil gets away with it because the objectives are simple. "Siege that door." "Stand on the flag until it turns the right color." "Kill the Enemy."

You want 100 players fighting challenging Daedra? You want players throwing obstacles at the other teams? You want players spliting up to close above and under ground portals?

That takes coordination. That takes teamwork. That takes more than a mass of 100 players showing up ready to fight however they see fit.


Right now, your idea won't replace actual PVE group content that has roles and players working together.
Its much harder to balance.
Its much harder on performance.
And you don't want it to be coordinated.

If you really think your idea has potential, try explaining your vision more for how you see it working practically? There's ways to make it work, but you don't seem too interested in the practicalities of 100 players fighting daedra, which means it isn't likely to convince ZOS.

Rungar

1) players will figure it out that's the point of the game. There is no coordination issue. zone/realm chat is all they need.
2) it doesnt need to be balanced because its balanced realm vs realm style.
3) The way you do things now might not work there.
4) the dps might not matter as much as the ability to work as a team and that will be much harder than what your used to.


yes there is a performance issue but there are many ways around it. Splitting up the tasks is one way to spread players out and they can decrease the number of players per side until it works. Somewhere between 50 and 100 is quite doable in this game. I imagine imperial city can hold 300 players right now They could issue uniforms if they wanted per side to improve performance that way.

they could have a campaign leaderboard and the top 12-24 people online when the last gate comes down get a chance to take out the final boss(s).

these things wont be finished in 30 minutes. It might take a week to finish it. Its a pve campaign vs other realms.

show up and help out best you can, how hard is that.

whats the worst that can happen, you might have some fun?

Partomax

No thanks, trials are awesome.

@VaranisArano awesome points, thanks for the dedication.

VaranisArano

Rungar wrote: »

1) players will figure it out that's the point of the game. There is no coordination issue. zone/realm chat is all they need.
2) it doesnt need to be balanced because its balanced realm vs realm style.
3) The way you do things now might not work there.
4) the dps might not matter as much as the ability to work as a team and that will be much harder than what your used to.


yes there is a performance issue but there are many ways around it. Splitting up the tasks is one way to spread players out and they can decrease the number of players per side until it works. Somewhere between 50 and 100 is quite doable in this game. I imagine imperial city can hold 300 players right now They could issue uniforms if they wanted per side to improve performance that way.

they could have a campaign leaderboard and the top 12-24 people online when the last gate comes down get a chance to take out the final boss(s).

these things wont be finished in 30 minutes. It might take a week to finish it. Its a pve campaign vs other realms.

show up and help out best you can, how hard is that.

whats the worst that can happen, you might have some fun?

I thought of a more in-depth response to these points, namely that your content isnt balanced at all from the PVE perspective of player v daedra and that zone/group chat is much harder to use for coordination that you think, but it felt rather nitpicky to me, and here's why:

Your idea is very barebones right now and doesnt have enough fleshed out PVE Group Content to make it interesting to me.

See, you say "show up and help out the best you can" and I'm scratching my head like "Huh? How is that challenging or interesting?"

Let me talk about about PVE group content. Current PVE group content has 4 major factors,
A. NPC bosses and mobs
B. Mechanics
C. Player Roles.
D. Player Teamwork
Those are what really make it PVE and make it Group Content.

So when I decide to do PVE Group Content, I pick my role - tank, healer, or DD - knowing that the content is balanced for those specific roles. I find a group because the content is balanced for a group of a certain level of experience made up of those roles working together. Then we fight mobs and NPC Bosses with mechanics balanced for that level of group that provide a challenge. Assuming we are capable enough and work well together, the challenge is not insurmountable.

That's what makes the current PVE group content fun for me. I'm playing my role. I'm working with my group. The Boss fights and mechanics are interesting and challenging while still balanced for a capable group. I can tell you all about the boss fights I love with their interesting mechanics! Ask me about Vaults of Madness sometime


That's also what I'm missing from your vision. I'm missing the parts that make PVE group content fun, and I think its because you really haven't fleshed out the PVE part out very well nor the Group part. That's really a rather crucial part of any idea purporting to replace current PVE group content, don't you think?

You've got a start with the daedric generators. That's good. Build on that.

So I'd really encourage you to go back to the drawing board and spend more time on the PVE Group Content part of your vision. Sure, the 3 way race to Molag Bal seems interesting, but that's not what players on each faction are actually going to be doing. They'll be fighting Daedra, doing stuff with portals, and obstacles. You've got to flesh that stuff out in order to make this interesting!

What does the PVE Group Content actually look like?
What are the bosses?
How do Player Roles come into this?
What group size is this balanced for?
How challenging is this content going to be?
What are we actually doing for a week?


I mean, whatever we're doing for a week had better be pretty darned interesting and challenging if its going to replace dungeons and trials. Personally, I've been sitting here thinking "Why would I fight "Daedra" with a bunch of EP? PVPers are much more interesting to fight than that!"

Its up to you to make your idea for PVE Group Content more interesting, and I strongly encourage you to put more thought into what we are actually going to be doing for a week as we fight Daedra and race for the center.

When I queue up to join your new PVE group content, what am I actually doing? If you want it to be a viable competitor for current group content, you need to make it interesting enough that its going to draw players to it by its own merits. So please, flesh out those merits and make it interesting PVE and interesting Group Content.

p00tx

So, while this sounds interesting, why would it need to replace raids? Some of us actually enjoy raiding, and I personally dig the competitive aspect of it.

Also, your idea follows the same flawed principal as the current PvP leader boards. The "winner" is slanted toward whoever has the most Adderall and no job or life to speak of, and is able to sit online for 36-48 hours straight (or has kids/cousins/siblings/roommates who can sit and push buttons for them while they sleep). I'd rather fight in something that lasts a shorter amount of time and takes actual skill, vs just max time spent on the server. It's like those old turn-based games that cropped up way back when.

Not saying this idea doesn't have merit for the lesser skilled players who want/need a time sink, but it shouldn't replace what already exists.

Jem_Kindheart

Yeah I too am missing the point of why we, under this theoretical scenario, would need to be forced to partake in some wild pvp as a replacement for 12-person organized trials......? Like... What in the actual lol.

One of the big reasons vet trial group progression is so fun is because the precision mechanics that need to be performed correctly build a sense of fellowship, camaraderie, and often quite a bit of laughs and jokes on the zillionth wipe lol. It requires such group precision that it requires voice comms newer than eso base code lol.

How is that model outdated? Group coordination is timeless, honestly. Forcing everyone into this wild west derp 100 person pvp sounds much more like some old 1998 WoW idea than the current state of dlc trials. I'm up for new ideas but not that one personally.

pelle412

That suggestion sounds like complete chaos and not fun at all. Players need content that offers interesting challenges that does not take a huge amount of time and becomes a managerial nightmare to coordinate. What happens if you throw 100 players together in Cyrodiil in the same place? Nothing, as your game becomes a powerpoint slide or crashes.

buttaface

Rungar wrote: »

The raid or trial is an outdated concept from as far back as everquest. Its limitations are many and its benifits are few. The very design of it promotes an exclusivity that creates negativity for the rest of the game because the culture of it has loud voices that end up compromising additional system toward its very specific playstyle and over -needy endless demands on developers which is an impossible task as any change will potentially upset the entire system.

Agree. Got burned out on the raid treadmill way back in 2009 playing AOC, as did many others who have been playing these games awhile. The EQ treadmill works because anyone of any general skill level can learn it, just have to sit that ass in that chair and rinse repeat. Once one script is learned, though, that knowledge doesn't really do too much for your play skill generally after an intermediate point, then on to the next script, rinse repeat. Addictive at first, hollow and unfulfilling over time.

I like your ideas for RvR. This game needs more "hop in" uncomplicated group content that isn't some scripted purple lever pulling contest. Dragons are a step in the right direction. Had AOC put in their casual raiding system earlier, the game may not have failed.