[PvP] Protective jewelery is pay to win [Math proof inside]

Luckylancer

Thesis: Using protective jewelery is better than using set bonuses if you want to increase your resistances while sacrificing less on max stats. Robust and arcane are inferior to pay to win protective.
Method: I will calculate rates to find best bang for my buck. I will use magicka as main resource but stam is completely same, just use robust and draugr. I ll compare unconditional %100 uptime resources of max mag and resists. Alfiq, brass, protective and arcane give stats unconditionaly with %100 uptime as long as they are slotted.


Brass All Gold
(2 items) Adds 1206 Maximum Health
(3 items) Adds 2975 Physical Resistance (I ll divide these by half and calculate Physical+Spell= "resistance" to simplify things) 2975/2=1487 resistance per 1pc bonus
(4 items) Adds 2975 Spell Resistance.
(5 items) Adds 3460 Physical Resistance and 3460 Spell Resistance.

Alfiq / Draugr All Gold
(2 items) Adds 1096 Max Magicka
(3 items) Adds 1096 Max Magicka
(4 items) Adds 1096 Max Magicka
(5 items) Adds 2560 Max Magicka

Arcane
Increases Maximum Magicka by: bolted ones are gold ones. 1844/870 = 1784/840. Rate is same so I ll use gold ones. Result will be same.

760 790 820 840 870

Protective

Increases Spell Resistance and Physical Resistance by

1624 1684 1744 1784 1844 (1844+1844)/2=1844 resistance per protective bonus



protective jewelery's resistance / arcane's magicka = gold 1844/870 = 2,12. You gain 2.12 resist per mag
1 pc resistance of sets / 1 pc magicka bonus of sets = gold 1.487/1096 = 1,35 You gain 1.35 resist per mag
PTS fortified brass 5 pc's resistance / Crafty Alfiq 5 pc magicka = gold 3460 / 2560 = 1,35

Discussion: This means you get more resistances per point of potential magicka you lose from arcane trait. you lose mere 840 max stat and gain back 1784 resistances.
At other side you get 1487 resistance when you lose 1096 magcika on small piece bonus. You get less armor with more potential magicka sacrificed if you use set pieces.

Why jewelery traits give better resistances? Because it is not pay to win when you use sets, you dont pay for sets.

When I see protective jewelery on Medium or Light armor builds I get annoyed. Because I cant use them, I dont have Summerset. But I can use fortified brass, it is nice to have options. But what? I get less resistance for more magicka I lose! Protective jewels give 5.532‬ resists and lose 2.520 mag when I retrait; brass give 6.435 res and lose 4.752 magicka againts alfiq. (1206 max hp = 1096 max mag deduced because they can be manipulated with atrribute points with same rate)

Conclusion: It is not all about comparing Alfiq/draugr+protective to Brass+arcane/robust. Robust and arcane are inferior to pay to win protective. You get an advantage with using protective againts summerset-less players.


Bonus: Do you wonder why ZoS did nerf the fortified brass 5 pc? I know the reason.


Old fortified brass 5 pc resistance / Crafty Alfiq 5 pc magicka = gold 5170 / 2560 = 2.01 nearly same rate as 2,12 of protective.
PTS fortified brass 5 pc resistance / Crafty Alfiq 5 pc magicka = gold 3460 / 2560 = 1,35 This is the new one. 1,35 rate... Same as non-p2w small piece rates.

Even if old brass's rate was not as good as protective/arcane rate they still had to nerf it. 2.01 rate was TOO much for Zo$.

Edit: this can be fixed with small (~%10) buffs and nerfs to jewel traits and maybe even smaller ones to set bonuses. Reversing brass nerf can be nice too because set was not bis so it wont impact the meta with 5k resists.

hakan

ah yes. zos wanted it to be pay to win sooo much that they heavily nerfed protective.

leepalmer95

Isn't protective like 1200 now?

The best armour per slot is the 1x piece armour monster sets. You can get 6k armour for slotting 2x armour pieces, way better than overated brass.

Luckylancer

hakan wrote: »

ah yes. zos wanted it to be pay to win sooo much that they heavily nerfed protective.

I checked pts notes before posting and used elderscrollsonline wiki information. Can you show me where protective nerf is?

ZoS release stuff overtuned then nerf after sales but thats another discussion topic.

leepalmer95

Luckylancer wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

ah yes. zos wanted it to be pay to win sooo much that they heavily nerfed protective.

I checked pts notes before posting and used elderscrollsonline wiki information. Can you show me where protective nerf is?

ZoS release stuff overtuned then nerf after sales but thats another discussion topic.

Last patch.

Naftal

So where's the pay?

VaranisArano

Naftal wrote: »

So where's the pay?

Have to buy Summerset or ESO+ in order to transmute jewelry from dropped sets. Protective trait is available on crafted sets for purchase.

But by those standards, I think we'd have to call Relequen, Olorime, and every other meta BOP set from the DLC/Chapters to also be P2W, minus whatever shows up in the Golden Vendor. Maelstrom Arena Weapons? That's been pay to win since Orsinium! So, uh, I don't think this idea is going to go anywhere fast.

(Shhh! Nobody mention Free ESO+ trials!)

Naftal

VaranisArano wrote: »

Naftal wrote: »

So where's the pay?

Have to buy Summerset or ESO+ in order to transmute jewelry from dropped sets. Protective trait is available on crafted sets for purchase.

But by those standards, I think we'd have to call Relequen, Olorime, and every other meta BOP set from the DLC/Chapters to also be P2W, minus whatever shows up in the Golden Vendor. Maelstrom Arena Weapons? That's been pay to win since Orsinium! So, uh, I don't think this idea is going to go anywhere fast.

(Shhh! Nobody mention Free ESO+ trials!)

Ah so just salty rambling.

VaranisArano

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Luckylancer wrote: »

hakan wrote: »

ah yes. zos wanted it to be pay to win sooo much that they heavily nerfed protective.

I checked pts notes before posting and used elderscrollsonline wiki information. Can you show me where protective nerf is?

ZoS release stuff overtuned then nerf after sales but thats another discussion topic.

Last patch.

Here's the relevant quote:

"Protective: Reduced this item trait to 1190 Physical and Spell Resistance at CP160 Legendary quality from 1844, to ensure its strength is similar to other jewelry traits."

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/488626/pc-mac-patch-notes-v5-1-5-scalebreaker-update-23

Royalthought

You're quite late with the pay2win on protective. You would've had more weight if you were a bit earlier or at least by just saying "jewelry crafting is pay2win." I could actually see that being the case.

Going with protective as your main point of attack after the nerf just takes a bit of your umph away. lol

GeorgeBlack

What do you win bro?
1v1?
4v4v4?
AvAvA?
Scoreboards?

ChunkyCat

I pay for internet service so I can win the forums.

BaiterOfZergs

Using dialup

Solariken

My dude, Protective got womped with the nerfbat a while ago - it's only 1190 at gold quality now.

Heatnix90

Congrats my dude you are literally months late with this revelation.

idk

VaranisArano wrote: »

Naftal wrote: »

(Shhh! Nobody mention Free ESO+ trials!)

Really good point. Free trial ESO+. Get your protective trait then.

cmvet

Are you in a trading guild? Most trading guilds have a primary residence where they have a transmute station. So you can go there and transmute your gear without having to own summerset. Just a suggestion.

buttaface

GeorgeBlack wrote: »

What do you win bro?

Forum Special Olympics

OG_Kaveman

Heatnix90 wrote: »

Congrats my dude you are literally months late with this revelation.

Op is a day late and a dollar short too. Set bonuses are finally being standardized to 1487 for all set bonuses for resists, with them all being both physical and spell resists, like this ought to have been in the first place.

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Isn't protective like 1200 now?

The best armour per slot is the 1x piece armour monster sets. You can get 6k armour for slotting 2x armour pieces, way better than overated brass.

That has to be a bug, all other set bonuses for monster sets are the equivalent of 2,3,4 set bonuses of 5 piece sets.

grannas211

We three patches ago now?

Banana

I dont see much winning there

mague

Luckylancer wrote: »

Conclusion: It is not all about comparing Alfiq/draugr+protective to Brass+arcane/robust. Robust and arcane are inferior to pay to win protective. You get an advantage with using protective againts summerset-less players.

Or you could just ask someone to craft some. Blue should be affordable and still has 1744 resists on them. Or try to buy some crowns if you have some gold and then buy sommerset.

You could sub ESO+ to level jelwelry, craft what you need and drop ESO+ sub.

I doubt this is a p2w issue. What is with those players selling crowns and then buy all jewels from the guild stores to level jewelry fast. Is that p2w ?

thorwyn

(15 page thesis)

Free trial ESO+. Get your protective trait then.

JENGAAAA!!!!!!!!!

ToRelax

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Isn't protective like 1200 now?

The best armour per slot is the 1x piece armour monster sets. You can get 6k armour for slotting 2x armour pieces, way better than overated brass.

That has to be a bug, all other set bonuses for monster sets are the equivalent of 2,3,4 set bonuses of 5 piece sets.

Damn, everyone using monster sets with a double 1 pc bonus is exploiting.

Royaji

grannas211 wrote: »

We three patches ago now?

If we believe really hard maybe we can pretend that the last two patches didn't happen, right?

Xerikten

p2w doesn't need math for proof. it either is or not. yours is not. the premise for having to buy a expansion isn't p2w. having to buy a subscription isn't p2w either.

thank you for the laugh. don't feel too bad as all p2w arguments on these forums fail to pass the requirements for the definition of p2w.

Speed_Kills

This is why I rarely come to the forums 😂

BNOC

Even before the nerf, this was subjective.

OG_Kaveman

ToRelax wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Isn't protective like 1200 now?

The best armour per slot is the 1x piece armour monster sets. You can get 6k armour for slotting 2x armour pieces, way better than overated brass.

That has to be a bug, all other set bonuses for monster sets are the equivalent of 2,3,4 set bonuses of 5 piece sets.

Damn, everyone using monster sets with a double 1 pc bonus is exploiting.

what are you talking about? like domihuas or kena? well that is not really a double 1 piece, as a one piece for a spell damage/weapon damage is 129, same with domihaus, 1096 is the same as stam/mag, which is what you get for a 2,3,4 set bonuses of 5 piece set, as i said. reists are 1487 spell/physical on the 2,3,4 set bonuses of 5 piece sets. look at it this way, it would be like if kena offered 258 weapon/spell damage, on the one piece, or if domihaus was 2192 of both stam/mag on the one piece. it makes no sense to have monster one piece be double a 2,3,4 set bonuses of 5 piece set. then what is going with all the other set that only have one set bonus, like iceheart or valkyn, by your logic they need to either get weapon crit or double 1096 health, in the case of valkyn.

ToRelax

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Isn't protective like 1200 now?

The best armour per slot is the 1x piece armour monster sets. You can get 6k armour for slotting 2x armour pieces, way better than overated brass.

That has to be a bug, all other set bonuses for monster sets are the equivalent of 2,3,4 set bonuses of 5 piece sets.

Damn, everyone using monster sets with a double 1 pc bonus is exploiting.

what are you talking about? like domihuas or kena? well that is not really a double 1 piece, as a one piece for a spell damage/weapon damage is 129, same with domihaus, 1096 is the same as stam/mag, which is what you get for a 2,3,4 set bonuses of 5 piece set, as i said. reists are 1487 spell/physical on the 2,3,4 set bonuses of 5 piece sets. look at it this way, it would be like if kena offered 258 weapon/spell damage, on the one piece, or if domihaus was 2192 of both stam/mag on the one piece. it makes no sense to have monster one piece be double a 2,3,4 set bonuses of 5 piece set. then what is going with all the other set that only have one set bonus, like iceheart or valkyn, by your logic they need to either get weapon crit or double 1096 health, in the case of valkyn.

On non hybrids, max stam + max mag is far superior to wpn dmg + spell dmg (and still somewhat on hybrid). And yes, double bonuses on sets that have single bonuses would certainly make them more competitive when it comes to just the 1 pc bonus; however that doesn't mean it would be more balanced, some full monster sets are quite competitive with their single bonuses.

BNOC

ToRelax wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Isn't protective like 1200 now?

The best armour per slot is the 1x piece armour monster sets. You can get 6k armour for slotting 2x armour pieces, way better than overated brass.

That has to be a bug, all other set bonuses for monster sets are the equivalent of 2,3,4 set bonuses of 5 piece sets.

Damn, everyone using monster sets with a double 1 pc bonus is exploiting.

what are you talking about? like domihuas or kena? well that is not really a double 1 piece, as a one piece for a spell damage/weapon damage is 129, same with domihaus, 1096 is the same as stam/mag, which is what you get for a 2,3,4 set bonuses of 5 piece set, as i said. reists are 1487 spell/physical on the 2,3,4 set bonuses of 5 piece sets. look at it this way, it would be like if kena offered 258 weapon/spell damage, on the one piece, or if domihaus was 2192 of both stam/mag on the one piece. it makes no sense to have monster one piece be double a 2,3,4 set bonuses of 5 piece set. then what is going with all the other set that only have one set bonus, like iceheart or valkyn, by your logic they need to either get weapon crit or double 1096 health, in the case of valkyn.

On non hybrids, max stam + max mag is far superior to wpn dmg + spell dmg (and still somewhat on hybrid). And yes, double bonuses on sets that have single bonuses would certainly make them more competitive when it comes to just the 1 pc bonus; however that doesn't mean it would be more balanced, some full monster sets are quite competitive with their single bonuses.

Only in CP iirc