Shards vs Orbs synergy

Gnortranermara

Due to the buff allowing the Orbs synergy to be used by multiple people, Templar currently has no reason to run their own class ability, Spear Shards, over generic Orbs.

Class abilities should be just as good (and arguably a little bit better) than generic abilities!

On live, the damage between Blazing Spear and Mystic Orb is roughly similar even when accounting for Burning Light procs. Sure, Orbs can miss 20-25% of the damage ticks on small targets, but it still breaks even as long as a single ally pops the synergy.

The only advantage to Spear is Minor Protection and Piercing Spear passives, but both of these are readily available from other Aedric Spear abilities. There's really no convincing reason for a Templar to use our own class ability, which is a shame because it's one of our best abilities visually and fits the class theme better than a magic floaty ball. I like that other classes have Orbs as an option, but Templar's class synergy should bring the same functionality so that all 6/6 classes aren't shoehorned into running the same skill.

TL;DR: Spear Shards needs the same multi-synergy effect as Orbs.

Nobnab

According to the test server patch notes, it is planned to increase the costs of the templar spear shard to 5k magicka.
If so, a shard should provide at least multiple synergies / resources such as the necrotic orb.

Since the last changes, an orb can provide nearly 4k resources up to 6 times and heals all players standing nearby for arround 7k health when used. That makes 24k resources on top of the healing for less than 3.5k magicka costs.
Therefore, a shard for 5k costs that provides 4k resources only to a single player would be way out of the line.

Oakmontowls_ESO

As much as I'd love shards to be synergized by multiple people, it would make orbs obsolete for Templar healers. They would be able to put the shards right on top of the dps which would also proc olo and shards gives some of the lower resource.

redspecter23

Nobnab wrote: »

According to the test server patch notes, it is planned to increase the costs of the templar spear shard to 5k magicka.
If so, a shard should provide at least multiple synergies / resources such as the necrotic orb.

Since the last changes, an orb can provide nearly 4k resources up to 6 times and heals all players standing nearby for arround 7k health when used. That makes 24k resources on top of the healing for less than 3.5k magicka costs.
Therefore, a shard for 5k costs that provides 4k resources only to a single player would be way out of the line.

ZOS is reading this and is prepping up to nerf orb.

p00tx

As long as the synergy for Blazing Spear changed, I'd be okay with this. Otherwise, a dps could just toss one out while doing their roto and have everyone covered (albeit for a smaller resource return). Maybe resource return for up to 12 on Luminous, and maybe raise group dmg by 1% for each player who synergized Blazing for 8 seconds, with a cap of 5 or 6 (would be way too OP in a PvP zerg without a cap). It would make both synergies unique, and would make Templars necessary in content, as well as make the skill useful now that it's been nerfed into Oblivion.

Drdeath20 wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

Being able to place the synergy exactly where it needs to go, in a 28 meter range, is worth all the things, that is an incredible tool, instead of waiting for orbs to float by, with only a range of 20 meters, as 2 meters per second for 10 seconds.

Thats just not enough

The previous poster forgot to mention that shards also restore both mag and stam pools simultaneously (orbs only restore the highest pool), which is ideal for tanks.

Gnortranermara

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

As much as I'd love shards to be synergized by multiple people, it would make orbs obsolete for Templar healers. They would be able to put the shards right on top of the dps which would also proc olo and shards gives some of the lower resource.

Yes, that's the point. Generic non-class skills are supposed to be "obsolete" on classes that have a superior class alternative. Harness is "obsolete" on Sorc, Silver Leash is "obsolete" on a DK tank with chains, Force Pulse is "obsolete" on a NB with Swallow Soul, Detro ulti is "obsolete" on Warden with Sleet Storm, etc. That's how this game is supposed to work. Generic skills are there to fill gaps for other classes, not to overshadow class-defining skills with superior functionality.

And Orbs still get the burst heal or burst damage that Shards lacks, so non-Templar healers have a perfectly acceptable alternative.

OG_Kaveman

Being able to place the synergy exactly where it needs to go, in a 28 meter range, is worth all the things, that is an incredible tool, instead of waiting for orbs to float by, with only a range of 20 meters, as 2 meters per second for 10 seconds.

kalunte

i'm definatly in favor of the OP proposal. i've ask for it when they made orbs to be multi-synergizable.

now new arguments are to be taken i consideration (cost mostly) and the overall performance of the generic skill compared to the class skill.

ps: i'd hate so see the healing/dmg part of orbs' synergy to be nerfed, but well. if they act like what they did with Javelin, they're more likely to nerf the orb instead of bringing shards to orbs' lvl...

Drdeath20

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

Being able to place the synergy exactly where it needs to go, in a 28 meter range, is worth all the things, that is an incredible tool, instead of waiting for orbs to float by, with only a range of 20 meters, as 2 meters per second for 10 seconds.

Thats just not enough

gallach

What if Luminous Shards synergy could be available to up 3 GROUP members while Blazing Spear keeps the one player synergy activation limit?

OG_Kaveman

Drdeath20 wrote: »

OG_Kaveman wrote: »

Being able to place the synergy exactly where it needs to go, in a 28 meter range, is worth all the things, that is an incredible tool, instead of waiting for orbs to float by, with only a range of 20 meters, as 2 meters per second for 10 seconds.

Thats just not enough

To you. That is more then enough for my healer.

Nobnab

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

As much as I'd love shards to be synergized by multiple people, it would make orbs obsolete for Templar healers. They would be able to put the shards right on top of the dps which would also proc olo and shards gives some of the lower resource.

Yes, that's the point. Generic non-class skills are supposed to be "obsolete" on classes that have a superior class alternative. Harness is "obsolete" on Sorc, Silver Leash is "obsolete" on a DK tank with chains, Force Pulse is "obsolete" on a NB with Swallow Soul, Detro ulti is "obsolete" on Warden with Sleet Storm, etc. That's how this game is supposed to work. Generic skills are there to fill gaps for other classes, not to overshadow class-defining skills with superior functionality.

And Orbs still get the burst heal or burst damage that Shards lacks, so non-Templar healers have a perfectly acceptable alternative.

I totally agree with you.
Compared to the orbs, the planned changes would make the shard absolutely worthless.

Oakmontowls_ESO

Then a Templar healer or Templar mdps will be required

Iskiab

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »

As much as I'd love shards to be synergized by multiple people, it would make orbs obsolete for Templar healers. They would be able to put the shards right on top of the dps which would also proc olo and shards gives some of the lower resource.

Yes, that's the point. Generic non-class skills are supposed to be "obsolete" on classes that have a superior class alternative. Harness is "obsolete" on Sorc, Silver Leash is "obsolete" on a DK tank with chains, Force Pulse is "obsolete" on a NB with Swallow Soul, Detro ulti is "obsolete" on Warden with Sleet Storm, etc. That's how this game is supposed to work. Generic skills are there to fill gaps for other classes, not to overshadow class-defining skills with superior functionality.

And Orbs still get the burst heal or burst damage that Shards lacks, so non-Templar healers have a perfectly acceptable alternative.

This is news to me, force pulse is better than swallow soul.

Zippy81

Orbs are not that easy to get when you're building a healer from scratch, you need to complete pledges to max a skill line.

I have another idea, how about the synergy is different and restores half what orbs provide but from all 3 pools? That would add another synergy as well. Otherwise it's a great skill anyway, magicka templar damage dealers provide a great synergy for the group.

Jodynn

Shards can be placed anywhere and also give the other resource as well for luminous; Orbs travel at the rate of a snail and it takes awhile to get to the tank especially in positions where you must be behind or for example kite healing in vCR your orbs probably won't ever make it to the tank and if the group healer is busy or stacking in the middle then shards is the best tool for the job for resources back to the tank.

It makes sense but that being said.

My proposal would luminous shard to be able to be synergized multiple times but blazing only once.

titaniumdust

Hotter take: the cooldown on orbs and shard should be separated again. Originally they were on separate cooldowns, but they were combined to reduce the effectiveness of templar healers and make other classes viable. ZOS also wanted to reduce sustain in general. They said they didn't want healers to have to feed resources to group members. But healing is very different now than it was around Morrowind. ZOS seems to have now embraced the idea that healers are batteries for DPS and tanks and have introduced multiple sets that allow healers to help group members manage their resources. I think it's time to separate the cooldowns again. Sustain in general is going to need some help after this patch, and for 5K magicka this ability should do something special again. Yeah, it makes a templar healer "required" but templar healers are already "required" for purify synergies and potl, and nothing this patch changes that.