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Thoughts on Standardisation, Dots, and Class Identity
ExistingRug61
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I would like provide some feedback as to the dev team on the current ability standardization process they are undertaking (so @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam). I will preface this by saying that when I first read the dev teams plan for standardization I saw the merit in it as a way of allowing them to more easily balance abilities between the classes and skills, and I still think this is a worthwhile endeavor but it may need some additional refinement beyond what we have seen so far as the current process has shown there are some issues with this process.
Point #1: Standardisation of DoT abilities
We saw in U23 and continued into U24 that the dev teams intent is to standardize all Dots so that they all do similar damage to each other for similar cost (or a similarly increased cost for AoE Dots), and then have a small amount of additional utility to provide flavor.
The Good: All Dots became similary viable to each other. Some abilities like Soul Trap which had previously never used suddenly became viable in U23. The work of the dev team to achieve balance between these abilities was made easier, hopefully allowing for more straightforward balancing overall.
The Problem: However, all dots being balanced with each other in terms of damage but only providing minor utility results in an “all or nothing” case when they are compared to spammable abilities, with one of the following cases resulting in order to maximise DPS:
1) All the DoTs are more powerful than spammables. In this case the optimal rotation comprise entirely of DoTs, making spammables pointless. This is because between class, weapon and world skills there are enough DoTs to due a continuous rotation of just DoTs.
2) All the DoTs are weaker than spammables. In this case DoTs won’t be used at all and rotations will just be buffs and spammables.
3) DoTs are close to balanced with spammables. This is probably the best case scenario as it means that a player can choose to use either DoTs or a spammable to achieve the same DPS. But even in this case, it is likely DoTs won’t be used as the rotations with only spammables are much simpler to perform, and why would a player choose a harder rotation with DoTs if it does no more damage than a spammable only rotation.
We have already seen this occuring - U23 was clearly case 1, and currently it looks like on PTS it is case 3 with people finding the best DPS rotations only use the AOE DoTs (to provide uptime on enchants). Now, I see people suggesting that to solve this we re-buff DoTs an amount, but this would just send us back to case 1).
Possible Solution/Refinement
A potential way to avoid the above “All or nothing” situation is to split DoTs into a couple of sub-categories for standardization, such that each sub-category because optimal given a certain case. This already exists to a small degree with the differentiation between AoE Dots vs Single Target Dots (as AoE Dots become better in the case that there is more than one enemy), but it could be taken further for DoTs.
For example, split both single target and AoE the DoTs into:
1) Damage focused DoTs. This could be abilities like Destructive Reach, Rending Slashes, DK DoTs, Endless Hail, Wall of Elements, Lightning Splash etc. These abilities get increased damage and maybe cost in comparison to other DoTs of the same type such that it is clearly better to use them over the others for DPS. The increased damage could be conditional, such poison injection only being better during execute phase. The key feature would be that these are limited in number so that you can’t make an entire rotation out of them and ignore spammables, and that they place additional sustain burdens vs spammables.
2) Utility focused DoTs. These DoTs would be more balanced in terms of damage when compared to spammables, but provide more significant utility such as lower cost, resource return, significant buffs and/or significant debuffs. The idea being that these DoTs would then be more or less useful depending on class or build. However, this would rely on the different classes actually having different strengths and weakness, which leads in to Point #2.
Now, this could be split further, but the more variants there are the harder it will be to balance.
Point #2: Standardisation and its effect on Class Identity
Standardisation of abilities has also had significant effect on Class Identity, as it has reduced or removed much of the difference in terms of strengths and weaknesses that previously existed between the classes. Barring a few exceptions, all classes have access to a full suite of ability types (spammable, single target DoTs, AoEs, AoE Dots etc). All these abilities being standardized within the category means that classes no longer get much identity from their class abilities, and simply “feel the same”. Ie: whats the difference (except animation ) between using a certain classes class spammable vs a generic spammable, or a class Dot vs a generic Dot or one classes DoT vs a different classes DoT, if they basically do the same damage and cost the same? The effect on DPS and sustain is the same.
As such class identity has been reduced to a handful of more unique skills, such as Grim Focus, Frags, Whip etc that don’t fit the standardization template and encourage a certain playstyle or synergy between abilities. The current patch shows more of these type of abilities to try to add identity with changes such as those to Stone Fist and Bound Armaments.
Instead, Class Identity could be further improved if each classes’ abilities actually encouraged different styles of play and more defined strengths and weaknesses within there class abilities. This would mean different classes would have to fill out there ability bar with different generic skills and use different item sets based on what complements that classes playstyle or helps cover that classes weakness. This could be achieved through class passives, but also by allowing class abilities to deviate from the standard as long as it is within the identity of the class.
Examples to illustrate the point of how allowing classes specifically improved abilities can provide identity for classes and their Mag/Stam variants (note: just examples, I’m sure there are other (potential better) options):
DK (mainly Stam, but could also apply to Mag):
Increase DK DoT damage and cost (to balance) in comparison to the standard, either through passive or by modifying the skills themselves. Add passive that makes heavy attacks do extra damage and/or resource restore based on number of DoTs applied to target.
Effect on class playstyle/identity: Gives DKs the option for a DoT heavy playstyle more than any other class, potentially even a DoT only rotation. However, increased cost means sustain is a problem and the suggested heavy attack passive in conjunction with the increased DoT damage means the DK could perform heavy attacks for sustain without suffering a DPS loss in comparison to a rotation with normal damage DoTs and no heavy attacks. May pick up additional DoTs outside class to further support this playstyle or instead opt for sustain utilities or sets to avoid the need to heavy attack (which should still result in similar DPS as although individual skill damage is lower, they will cast more skills due to not heavy attacking).
Stam NB:
Give slightly increased damage on spammable (and spammable execute) abilities and cost in class in comparison to the standard, but give no in class DoTs. Abilities and passives give above average sustain *while* attacking.
Effect on class playstyle/identity: Means Stam NB will likely develop a playstyle based around continuous light attack (for sustain) and spammable weaving, with DPS dropping if this cannot be sustained. May pick up DoTs from outside the class to improve DPS, but only to the limit of what sustain would allow.
Mag NB
Give cheaper than normal spammable as well as in class DoTs that do standard damage. Also gains above average sustain like Stam NB while attacking.
Effect on class playstyle Identity: Main benefit MagNB would gain with the above in class is good sustain and cheap exclusive spammable, so like Stam NB they would focus on continuous light attack weaved rotations. However, they lack in class damage as they don’t have the higher damage spammable StamNB has, so would need to get the most damaging DoTs they can from outside the class to increase damage. Good sustain and low cost spammable means MagNB can use even the most costly of these abilities. May also be able to focus gear entirely to damage and not have to worry about sustain.
Obviously the difficulty with such an idea would be to ensure balance between the classes is still achieved.
Well, that ended up longer than I had hoped. If you got this far, thanks for reading.
Would be interested to hear other’s thoughts and/or opposing views.
Tl:dr
1) Standardisation of DoT damage will most likely result in either all Dots, or no DoTs, being viable in comparison to spammables.
2) Standardisation reduces class identity as it means classes will no longer have relative strengths/weakness when compared to each other so they all end up playing similarly.
Point #1: Standardisation of DoT abilities
We saw in U23 and continued into U24 that the dev teams intent is to standardize all Dots so that they all do similar damage to each other for similar cost (or a similarly increased cost for AoE Dots), and then have a small amount of additional utility to provide flavor.
The Good: All Dots became similary viable to each other. Some abilities like Soul Trap which had previously never used suddenly became viable in U23. The work of the dev team to achieve balance between these abilities was made easier, hopefully allowing for more straightforward balancing overall.
The Problem: However, all dots being balanced with each other in terms of damage but only providing minor utility results in an “all or nothing” case when they are compared to spammable abilities, with one of the following cases resulting in order to maximise DPS:
1) All the DoTs are more powerful than spammables. In this case the optimal rotation comprise entirely of DoTs, making spammables pointless. This is because between class, weapon and world skills there are enough DoTs to due a continuous rotation of just DoTs.
2) All the DoTs are weaker than spammables. In this case DoTs won’t be used at all and rotations will just be buffs and spammables.
3) DoTs are close to balanced with spammables. This is probably the best case scenario as it means that a player can choose to use either DoTs or a spammable to achieve the same DPS. But even in this case, it is likely DoTs won’t be used as the rotations with only spammables are much simpler to perform, and why would a player choose a harder rotation with DoTs if it does no more damage than a spammable only rotation.
We have already seen this occuring - U23 was clearly case 1, and currently it looks like on PTS it is case 3 with people finding the best DPS rotations only use the AOE DoTs (to provide uptime on enchants). Now, I see people suggesting that to solve this we re-buff DoTs an amount, but this would just send us back to case 1).
Possible Solution/Refinement
A potential way to avoid the above “All or nothing” situation is to split DoTs into a couple of sub-categories for standardization, such that each sub-category because optimal given a certain case. This already exists to a small degree with the differentiation between AoE Dots vs Single Target Dots (as AoE Dots become better in the case that there is more than one enemy), but it could be taken further for DoTs.
For example, split both single target and AoE the DoTs into:
1) Damage focused DoTs. This could be abilities like Destructive Reach, Rending Slashes, DK DoTs, Endless Hail, Wall of Elements, Lightning Splash etc. These abilities get increased damage and maybe cost in comparison to other DoTs of the same type such that it is clearly better to use them over the others for DPS. The increased damage could be conditional, such poison injection only being better during execute phase. The key feature would be that these are limited in number so that you can’t make an entire rotation out of them and ignore spammables, and that they place additional sustain burdens vs spammables.
2) Utility focused DoTs. These DoTs would be more balanced in terms of damage when compared to spammables, but provide more significant utility such as lower cost, resource return, significant buffs and/or significant debuffs. The idea being that these DoTs would then be more or less useful depending on class or build. However, this would rely on the different classes actually having different strengths and weakness, which leads in to Point #2.
Now, this could be split further, but the more variants there are the harder it will be to balance.
Point #2: Standardisation and its effect on Class Identity
Standardisation of abilities has also had significant effect on Class Identity, as it has reduced or removed much of the difference in terms of strengths and weaknesses that previously existed between the classes. Barring a few exceptions, all classes have access to a full suite of ability types (spammable, single target DoTs, AoEs, AoE Dots etc). All these abilities being standardized within the category means that classes no longer get much identity from their class abilities, and simply “feel the same”. Ie: whats the difference (except animation ) between using a certain classes class spammable vs a generic spammable, or a class Dot vs a generic Dot or one classes DoT vs a different classes DoT, if they basically do the same damage and cost the same? The effect on DPS and sustain is the same.
As such class identity has been reduced to a handful of more unique skills, such as Grim Focus, Frags, Whip etc that don’t fit the standardization template and encourage a certain playstyle or synergy between abilities. The current patch shows more of these type of abilities to try to add identity with changes such as those to Stone Fist and Bound Armaments.
Instead, Class Identity could be further improved if each classes’ abilities actually encouraged different styles of play and more defined strengths and weaknesses within there class abilities. This would mean different classes would have to fill out there ability bar with different generic skills and use different item sets based on what complements that classes playstyle or helps cover that classes weakness. This could be achieved through class passives, but also by allowing class abilities to deviate from the standard as long as it is within the identity of the class.
Examples to illustrate the point of how allowing classes specifically improved abilities can provide identity for classes and their Mag/Stam variants (note: just examples, I’m sure there are other (potential better) options):
DK (mainly Stam, but could also apply to Mag):
Increase DK DoT damage and cost (to balance) in comparison to the standard, either through passive or by modifying the skills themselves. Add passive that makes heavy attacks do extra damage and/or resource restore based on number of DoTs applied to target.
Effect on class playstyle/identity: Gives DKs the option for a DoT heavy playstyle more than any other class, potentially even a DoT only rotation. However, increased cost means sustain is a problem and the suggested heavy attack passive in conjunction with the increased DoT damage means the DK could perform heavy attacks for sustain without suffering a DPS loss in comparison to a rotation with normal damage DoTs and no heavy attacks. May pick up additional DoTs outside class to further support this playstyle or instead opt for sustain utilities or sets to avoid the need to heavy attack (which should still result in similar DPS as although individual skill damage is lower, they will cast more skills due to not heavy attacking).
Stam NB:
Give slightly increased damage on spammable (and spammable execute) abilities and cost in class in comparison to the standard, but give no in class DoTs. Abilities and passives give above average sustain *while* attacking.
Effect on class playstyle/identity: Means Stam NB will likely develop a playstyle based around continuous light attack (for sustain) and spammable weaving, with DPS dropping if this cannot be sustained. May pick up DoTs from outside the class to improve DPS, but only to the limit of what sustain would allow.
Mag NB
Give cheaper than normal spammable as well as in class DoTs that do standard damage. Also gains above average sustain like Stam NB while attacking.
Effect on class playstyle Identity: Main benefit MagNB would gain with the above in class is good sustain and cheap exclusive spammable, so like Stam NB they would focus on continuous light attack weaved rotations. However, they lack in class damage as they don’t have the higher damage spammable StamNB has, so would need to get the most damaging DoTs they can from outside the class to increase damage. Good sustain and low cost spammable means MagNB can use even the most costly of these abilities. May also be able to focus gear entirely to damage and not have to worry about sustain.
Obviously the difficulty with such an idea would be to ensure balance between the classes is still achieved.
Well, that ended up longer than I had hoped. If you got this far, thanks for reading.
Would be interested to hear other’s thoughts and/or opposing views.
Tl:dr
1) Standardisation of DoT damage will most likely result in either all Dots, or no DoTs, being viable in comparison to spammables.
2) Standardisation reduces class identity as it means classes will no longer have relative strengths/weakness when compared to each other so they all end up playing similarly.
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Taloros✭✭✭✭Good point: If there are enough great DoTs, nobody uses spammables, and vice versa.
The fix you suggest sounds viable. I'd like to add some other ideas for variety's sake:
- Make DoTs last much longer, e. g. 30 seconds, so that you need a spammable to fill in gaps in the rotation.
- Limit the amount of DoTs one character can put on a target, forcing you to pick which one(s) you like most.
- Increase mana/stamina cost of DoTs so much that it isn't sutainable to put too many in your rotation [note: NOT my favorite choice, and probably too dependant on build/situation].
- Provide an easy way to purge DoTs in PvP. The "DoT meta" seems to be mainly (but not exclusively) a problem in PvP.
- Reduce the damage of DoTs in PvP by giving e. g. 50% DoT resistance to Battle Spirit.
- Add something to spammables to make them better, e. g. buffs like Major Sorcery, instead of adding them to DoTs.
The main problem which led to the current mess seems to be that the Dev team didn't think things through before entering an escalating spiral of buffs and nerfs. I can only recommend to make charts, do the paperwork, talk to smart people like the OP before going on in whichever direction.0 -
ExistingRug61✭✭✭✭To be honest I suspect the devs probably did try to think things through when they started this standardisation plan and they probably have charts/standards similar to your suggestion (I agree that sort of thing is definitely necessary), it’s just they probably aren’t going to publish theirs for us to see.
However I think it likely they didn’t fully understand some of side effects of the plan, like the “all or nothing” effect on the usefulness of dots. Which is not surprising, it’s very hard to predict all the outcomes until you try it.
My concern is that they think the issues I describe are caused by their implementation of the plan (ie what they set the standard damage and costs too) and get stuck in an endless cycle of buffing or nerfing the whole category like you say. Where really the actually the root cause of the issue is the plans concept (rigid standardisation of damage).0 -
Czekoludek✭✭✭✭✭
✭I also made a couple suggestions about dots in another discussion: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/494549/idea-of-proper-dot-standarization
I like your analysis, hope the devs reads threads like this0 -
Arwyr✭✭i totally think increasing the duration of dots would be a great way to go. for example, instead of 10k over 10 seconds, have 30k over 30 seconds. would make sure that dots are still useful, but you actually have to do something other than just cast dots. look at how they work on the bard in ffxiv for example. you've got 2 dots, they're great, but you're not going to cast them more than once every 30 seconds or so. everything else is buffs, spammables, and skill procs.0