Thoughts for update 25 or near future?

Millz

I'm going to keep it short at sweet. (I tried)

Let's face it the community will always be divided when it comes to balance. Good for pve or bad for pvp vice versa, as a Pvp oriented player and someone who doesn't really care for biased response I think the following would be a good place to start on the next update.

Balance pve damage first and foremost to the most current content. Pve dmg should be the benchmark because the environment is controlled by devs which is therefore "static". IF they make balances based off pvp (dmg wise) there will be conflict. Three areas which I think would help with dps and make everyone happy would be this. (I'll relate to pvp after)

1. Make AoE dots stronger/useful. This will require proper stacking and cc from groups to complete content.
2. Increase dmg of spammables. This will help raise the floor and bring in people who don't have time to sit in front of a target dummy into okay numbers.
3. Nerf light/heavy attacks SLIGHTLY. Bring them down but keep them relevant for END GAME players. This should be your "flex" like hey I have a rotation that I practice and it puts out the best numbers.

(Summarized content from below make content easier for entry players but introduce more exclusive/benefits/greater satisfaction to players who put time in)

Doing this will allow people who can't complete content because they don't have weeks to dedicate practice towards to complete content. Where the groups who do can focus on what they actually care about and that's the harder stuff like achievements and leaderboards. Should someone who doesn't have the time like others be denied completions? Well yes and no depending on the content. If someone who just wants to beat it or farm gear they should be able to with a rag tag group who take it semi seriously. It should take them longer a few wipes maybe a week of progressing. BUT they should feel like the earned it not just given to them. I feel like in the current state you go into some harder content and its really discouraging to entry or even moderate players. Now for the no part. This ties in with the feeling of your complete being earned. Should a moderate player easily get the hardest achievements or titles/skins in the game? No, that's reserved for people who make time in there day to optimize builds, rotations, group comp etc. Imagine unlocking an even harder base version of the trial. Being able to add difficulty multipliers that will increase score and make the content MUCH harder. BUT those entry players aren't even getting content done so they can't even begin to think like that have a chance at it. While people who get content done now will always get content done for the most part.

Now to tie this into PVP

Hear me out pvp guys, like I said above pve is essentially a static environment so the dmg people do should adhere to them first. If they do something like the above suggested yes we will go through some time where dmg may feel over or undertuned PVP wise. But the problem with that doesn't lie in the damage but in fact the resistances and healing. So once the devs can get a good benchmark for pve and make that majority of the community happy or at least enjoying the newer content then we come next. I'll now talk about why the changes would be good for pvp as well.

1. Increasing AoE dots will help control faction stacking and outnumbered play style. Pretty simple enough stand in dots you take damage and it should hurt. So move around.
2. Increasing spammable damage will allow glass cannons to take on tankier targets without feeling underpowered. The otherside a tanky target can feel like he can still do damage to a player less experienced at keeping buffs/heals up and or poor movement with bad resource/cc management. Essentially rewarding very thought out combat on both ends.
3. Light/heavies just shouldn't do as much as they do currently. It's free damage which should be secondary to a spammable.

Now to balance between the two all they would have to do is adjust base armor resistances and healing. If healing and resistances make pve content to easy then they adjust the monsters not the players. So they would still be able to do the same damage just mobs will be harder. Doing these changes above would allow faction stacking to important for less experienced players but allow smaller groups of more seasoned players to take them on or come close. Because getting steam rolled or doing the rolling isn't as satisfying all the time. Emphasis on all the time.

Anyways I tried to keep it short lol but I think if they can benchmark pve damage to keep them happy then adjust defenses for pvp to keep us happy and in return readjust pve mobs to keep more hardcore players interested well I think everyone would actually be excited for the potential years to come.

chrightt

Don't think light attack/heavy attack damage is an issue right now. At least it gives every class a spammable and it also ties into the balance of currently cast time skills. Everyone is pissed at over-nerfed DoTs. Otherwise, I agree on slightly improving spammable damage instead of nerfing every other crap down to the ground.

VaranisArano

FYI, if you want the mods to let this stay up, take off the "Open Letter" part, or they'll likely close it for being against forum rules.

Millz

chrightt wrote: »

Don't think light attack/heavy attack damage is an issue right now. At least it gives every class a spammable and it also ties into the balance of currently cast time skills. Everyone is pissed at over-nerfed DoTs. Otherwise, I agree on slightly improving spammable damage instead of nerfing every other crap down to the ground.

I'm saying they do to much damage for not having to use resources. I'm trying to say they should be relevant but not make or break so people who cannot practice a roto can stay focused more on in game mechanics rather than their rotation and put out ok numbers vs the player who practices a rotation and gets content done faster which they can then move on to more challenging parts of the game. It's really just for the people who cannot parse or lag. I mean I guess they could leave LA dmg as is to and just bring up spammables but that would be something they should try.

VaranisArano

That's an interesting approach. I like the idea of adjusting PVE difficulty via damage primarily, and PVP difficulty via resistances and healing primarily. Certainly, those are two big differences between the two play modes, since PVP has a higher emphasis on resistances and self-healing, while PVE generally emphasizes sustained damage rotations.

The only problem I see is that ZOS wants to keep PVE power creep under control largely because it makes older content obsolete. So making older content easier for entry players may not be what ZOS wants to do when they also have to keep more experienced players interested in the the same content.

Anyways, kudos for seriously thinking about how to balance this for both PVE and PVP!

Millz

VaranisArano wrote: »

That's an interesting approach. I like the idea of adjusting PVE difficulty via damage primarily, and PVP difficulty via resistances and healing primarily. Certainly, those are two big differences between the two play modes, since PVP has a higher emphasis on resistances and self-healing, while PVE generally emphasizes sustained damage rotations.

The only problem I see is that ZOS wants to keep PVE power creep under control largely because it makes older content obsolete. So making older content easier for entry players may not be what ZOS wants to do when they also have to keep more experienced players interested in the the same content.

Anyways, kudos for seriously thinking about how to balance this for both PVE and PVP!

Thanks man but I was definitely not saying older content to be easier just more accessible. Content should be rewarding but there should be tiers to it. Maybe add handicaps to make the content harder and increase score multiplier for leaderboards? I don't know just throwing ideas

Nerhesi

I agree with sentiment here, but I think we have to back up to a more strategic view. We need some key concepts to keep in mind before we start/continue with the conversation:

A) Do not balance for mass PvP
Do not be afraid to significantly change the meta. Meta change is universally accepted as a good thing to keep any game healthy (even non PvP games)

Lets look at celebrated, competitive games out there that have what could be called as objectively good pvp. I will throw out some examples from board-games to moba to mmorpgs.

X-Wing miniatures game.
Battletech (tabletop and online)
WoW
GW2
League of Legends
DOTA
etc...

What do you notice is the most common thing across all that craziness?

Roles.
Roles and meaningful differentiation between options.

Within each game, you have a META where role A beats Role B, Role B beats Role C, Role C beats Role D, Role D beats Role A. This is assuming equivalent skill of course. Without this, you have stagnant, boring single builds despite thousands of options. You would have nothing but Mages in WoW, or Ezreal's in League if those roles or classes were good at keeping themselves alive forever (healing), doing burst damage, and having great mobility.

This is the problem with ESO - you can effectively build speccs that are great at everything
This. must. change - OR - ZOS must stop trying to change the meta and just accept the same, boring, stagnant meta with very little variety because maybe the few people that enjoy that meta should not be upset...

If you do wish to change it, you have to get comfortable with making significant changes along the following lines - bear with me, as this will be upsetting to some. So lets look at the builds/roles, both the historically good meta, and the ones we'd want to be good too.

The Current meta builds (pre U23). The Onslaught or dawnbreaker using, dizzying swing or crushing shock spamming, etc monsters. These builds can exist, but your regen values should never be over 400 and your resist never over 15k. You have to kill someone in under lets say 20 seconds of sustained DPS pressure or you have to die every time. Again assuming equal skill from an optimized build of another role.

The Dot builds (single target)
They only existed briefly in the last patch. You kill anyone if you survive over 20 seconds because you can't kill anyone in under 20 seconds.
You start sucking the larger the battle is because dots aren't very effective since they're not as easily coordinated impactful as a couple of DPS burst (above) guys coordinating. The prevalence of AoE Purge is also more common.

The Tanky sustain build
You dont die to anyone except the dot build but that will take 2-3 minutes so outside of a duel (which no should care about) it doesnt matter. Sustain of maybe around 800. Incapable of any meaningful damage.
You'll probably die to a stealth/gank build but only because they can try to gank you several times over 2-3 minutes again.

Stealth/Gank build
You can skill anyone in under 10 seconds or else you pretty much have to rinse and reset. You're also insta-lose against stealth detection and like the dot build, not so great in mass combat... but not as bad either.

The super sustain build
You not only sustain yourself but also provide sustain to all the above classes that can't sustain themselves. This is only build/role that should have the current sustain values (like 1500-2000).

For a second, I want you to imagine this implemented in this very crude way (this is just to get the idea, not the end state)

-Everyone's current attributes are cut by half (except health).
-Pick a Mundus stone. Each one gives you a role and some bonus, example:
Mage: +100% magicka skills direct damage dealt, +25% magica regen
Warrior: +20% block mitigation, +100% health, +25% health regen
Rogue:+100% stamina skills damage dealt, +25% magica regen
Lover: +300% Dot damage (from the current really crappy levels lets say), +75% magica regen
Sustainer-whatever: +200% healing given, +50% healing taken, +100% magicka regen
etc etc etc

-CPs are cut by half, but there is only 1 tree. Remove the useless skills that almost no one takes either.



Now I know a lot of you will say, forget that, I dont want this to be a traditional boring class or role based RPG. This game is about making awesome hybrids that are automagically switching between staves and shields and swords like a walking swiss army knife!

And that would be fine - but except PVP to be considered the subpar experience is now, and that it will never change, because you have 1 optimal "class" for pvp that has access to 100s of skills and 1000s of gear - but as with anything else, only 5% is meta.

Millz

I understand where you're coming from but at that point it would be a completely different game. What I'm suggesting can be done NOW. We would have to go through the next half year of probably pretty bad updates but for the future of the game it would be worth it.

Rungar

the community is constantly asking for zos to slow things down...what do you think zos's response will be.

well played zos, well played....

Millz

Rungar wrote: »

the community is constantly asking for zos to slow things down...what do you think zos's response will be.

well played zos, well played....

The community is afraid of challenge's and upset that their classes have been gutted. So when someone elses class gets gutted they rejoice. Like I said in my post they need to bring back the drawing board and fix one area first (pve) then work out the other (pvp)

psycoprophet

I just dont understand this standardization approach effective stripping classes of their identities. Nightblade should be fast,evasive,burst hard but be fragile hence the need to burst hard as rogue like archetype arnt meant to stick in a fight long and if I wanted a tank I'd pick dk or warden. If I wanted to be a healer I'd have chose templar or necro etc. The devs are basically not only taking the reason why u chose and enjoy a class archetype away but effectively making all the different archetype's meaningless. People chose classes on theme and playstyle and if they're all effectively Jack of all trades than that deletes all uniqueness players feel between their chosen class and another. Seems so silly of a decision. Like for example no other class should have a tele strike like ambush but nb among all the other shared skills between all the classes.

AcadianPaladin

As ever, I would like to see PvP and PvE balanced separately. Trying to balance them together has been failing for 5 years now. At what point does it become reasonable to try a different approach? I think two of the biggest casualties of trying to balance PvP and PvE together is (1) the wedge of animosity it drives between the two communities and (2) rendering tanks impotent in PvE to prevent S&B + heavy armor from overly dominating PvP.

Regarding the other ideas, I like light attacks as a spammable and would hate to see it nerfed. I would much rather see light attacks used as a spammable rather than as simply weaving/ultimate building fodder.

I believe the best way to narrow the chasm between floor and ceiling would be (1) eliminate weaving and (2) eliminate exotic/hard to acquire sets. Note that I do weave and use good sets. . . and I would happily surrender both to help bring floor and ceiling a bit closer.

Millz

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

As ever, I would like to see PvP and PvE balanced separately. Trying to balance them together has been failing for 5 years now. At what point does it become reasonable to try a different approach? I think two of the biggest casualties of trying to balance PvP and PvE together is (1) the wedge of animosity it drives between the two communities and (2) rendering tanks impotent in PvE to prevent S&B + heavy armor from overly dominating PvP.

Regarding the other ideas, I like light attacks as a spammable and would hate to see it nerfed. I would much rather see light attacks used as a spammable rather than as simply weaving/ultimate building fodder.

I believe the best way to narrow the chasm between floor and ceiling would be (1) eliminate weaving and (2) eliminate exotic/hard to acquire sets. Note that I do weave and use good sets. . . and I would happily surrender both to help bring floor and ceiling a bit closer.

What I'm suggesting is to make damage able to complete pve content and in return balance resistances and healing in pvp to accommodate. Tanks are having no problems in pve right now with all the sets you can run now it's not a problem, so I've been told. Light attacks doing the most damage is wrong though. Like I said they shouldn't be irrelevant but spammables should do more or just as much as someone else stated. These are just suggestions. But your suggestion to eliminate weaving is contradicting to you saying you like light attacks being spammables. Because they are the bread and butter of a proper dps rotation. Now as far as your second suggestion I would agree but that wouldn't solve anything. Sets should be balanced out not just gotten rid of. Yes there is a huge difference in running meta sets vs non meta. But if they rework how damage works people who can't get the best sets could still complete harder content if they put the time in.

GeorgeBlack

Many thoughs as I look at my available GB space.