Instead of Nerfing Class DOTs...

SapAndFury

Why not just address the root cause of the DOT meta problem? Entropy and Soul Trap should never have become DOT mainstays. Nerf the damage of 2 skills by 60-80% and be done with it.

chrightt

A perfectly not well thought out response to an already annoying issue. Soul Trap getting nerfed by 50% is fine already. I doubt it'll see much plays other than filling soul gems. Entropy nerfed by 50% should be fine too because other DoTs should've been nerfed less than 50%. Nerfing Entropy/soultrap only by 60%-80% would not only make both skills straight out garbage it'll just leave DoTs like physical DoT Blood Craze a mile stronger than any shared magical DoT. Other DoTs were definitely outperforming skills by a mile as well, they just don't deserve a 40-60% nerf like what ZoS did to them.

TL;DR OP is stam and doesn't think.

Galarthor

The root of the problem is / was that DoTs dealt 2.5 times the DPS per global cooldown than direct damage attacks. By halfing the DPS output of DoTs and thus bringing it down to 1.25 times the DPS per global cooldown than direct damage attacks ZOS is actually addressing the root of the problem.

You will still be dealing 25% more damage with a DoT than with a comparable direct damage attack. So stop complaining.

Wayshuba

Galarthor wrote: »

The root of the problem is / was that DoTs dealt 2.5 times the DPS per global cooldown than direct damage attacks. By halfing the DPS output of DoTs and thus bringing it down to 1.25 times the DPS per global cooldown than direct damage attacks ZOS is actually addressing the root of the problem.

You will still be dealing 25% more damage with a DoT than with a comparable direct damage attack. So stop complaining.

Not entirely true. In PvE maybe. As long as the target lives longer than 8 seconds and you can maintain the sustain.

In PvP, you will absolutely not be doing more. You are lucky in PvP to get off one or two ticks of your DoTs before they are purged. So now they reduced the damage by half AND spread it out over 10, instead of 8 seconds, AND increased the cost of it.

If you listened to the stream, the purpose for the reduction in DoT was PvP, not PvE. So you will be doing substantially LESS damage and, to make matters worse, they didn't reduce any of the healing. The streams of PvP on the PTS are already showing this to be major problems. Duels go on for ten minutes solid and end with both players calling a draw because no one can kill someone else. Yeah, I am SURE they tested this before it went live. Running around on Stros M-Kai and killing a few wolves before going to PTS is NOT testing.

Furthermore, the cost of the DoTs versus the direct spammables is not in line. It is cheaper, and more effective to completely ignore DoTs now and go with direct spammables. Better for sustain as well. A typical DoT now on PTS costs 18 resource per point of damage compared to around 7-8 for a direct attack. So tell me, why would ANYONE spend 125% more resource on Dots for 25% more in damage. Zos didn't fix DOTs, they broke them even further. In the time the DoT ticks, you can spam 5 direct damage attacks for 63% more resource cost but 375% more damage.

DoTs are dead because they will NOT give anyone more damage with the current reductions AND cost increases.

Now, of course, it creates a MAJOR problem for a DPS DK since they are built around DoTs. So their NERF across the board mentality stinks.

Galarthor

In PvP they are likewise an issue. Even more so than in PvE actually since NPCs don't care about balance and fairness.

The picture in PvP is just more differentiated than the one in PvE.
While DoTs are borderline useless against Templars and only partially effective against NBs thanks to cloak's DoT supression, they are devastating for classes without a purge.

As for PvE, the DPS power creep has been out of control for quite some time now. A year ago parses were around 60k. Nowadays they are around 100k. That is a 67% increase in DPS in 1 year. At the same time set bonuses, level cap, attribute points and CP did not change. So the entire DPS increase is down to some weird 5pc bonuses and the buff to DoTs, with the latter being responsible for the vast majority. There were also no changes to NPCs to warrant such a buff in DPS. ZOS simply made a bad choice in the past and is now correcting it.

And just b/c you are so worried about your DK ... sorcs for example also heavily relied on AoE DoTs for the single target DPS, even prior to their buff and that perfectly illustrates what is/was wrong with the balancing. A class that is designed around direct and delayed single target burst damage is using AoE DoTs for max DPS.

josh.lackey_ESO

SapAndFury wrote: »

Why not just address the root cause of the DOT meta problem? Entropy and Soul Trap should never have become DOT mainstays. Nerf the damage of 2 skills by 60-80% and be done with it.

Oh, so nerf magicka abilities only, but not stamina. No thanks.

lucky_Sage

DoTs are useless in pvp now your base hp recov will cover a DoTs. if you think this is better then your wrong.
this maybe a good number for some guild/ weapon DoTs but this is bad for DK who is DoTs zero delayed burst no execute. there pressure is almost non existent. light attack weaves with your spammable is more pressure than DoTs. so for a dk every 4 offsive gcd you get a whip that can deal 25 to 50% of targets hp but doesn't count for much when don't have pressure to get health low enough to kill even paired with leap

Holycannoli

Galarthor wrote: »

The root of the problem is / was that DoTs dealt 2.5 times the DPS per global cooldown than direct damage attacks. By halfing the DPS output of DoTs and thus bringing it down to 1.25 times the DPS per global cooldown than direct damage attacks ZOS is actually addressing the root of the problem.

You will still be dealing 25% more damage with a DoT than with a comparable direct damage attack. So stop complaining.

At a much higher cost in some cases. They went overboard with these nerfs just as they went overboard with the buffs in August.

Holycannoli

josh.lackey_ESO wrote: »

SapAndFury wrote: »

Why not just address the root cause of the DOT meta problem? Entropy and Soul Trap should never have become DOT mainstays. Nerf the damage of 2 skills by 60-80% and be done with it.

Oh, so nerf magicka abilities only, but not stamina. No thanks.

Soul trap is stamina as well. It’s whichever is higher for you.

Canned_Apples

@Galarthor
Most classes don't rely heavily on dots (in pvp) except for DKs, which took quite a beating in this patch.
They had their dot damage increased by 26% and their cost increased fo Scalebreaker, but now they're having their damage decreased by 60% and having the cost increase yet again! Why? because they now apply a weak status effect?
DKs were fine before scalebreaker- although the nerf to Molten Whip was completely warranted.
These flat nerfs and buffs shouldn't be the same for class abilities. Each one uses abilities differently.


Warden's Swarm was buff once by 17% and had its cost increased to accommodate that, but is now being nerfed by 50% and having its cost increased yet again? They did add minor vulnerability, but does that really warrant having its cost increased again?
The stamina morph might be even worse if it's affected by Evasion.. I want to confirm it, but no one is interested in testing things.

Wayshuba

Galarthor wrote: »

And just b/c you are so worried about your DK ... sorcs for example also heavily relied on AoE DoTs for the single target DPS, even prior to their buff and that perfectly illustrates what is/was wrong with the balancing. A class that is designed around direct and delayed single target burst damage is using AoE DoTs for max DPS.

I think what you are pointing out here - correctly in my opinion - is that their quest for GLOBAL rules across the entire skill base is not working. When a class is SUPPOSED to sustain pressure with DoTs, it should be an exception to the standard rules. That is what would give them "class identity".

Instead we are starting to get this really weird approach to skills (really, hits someone five times with a 3,500k cost skill before you can stun them - get real) that is making them rather weird for any continuity of combat rotations.

OtarTheMad

Wayshuba wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

And just b/c you are so worried about your DK ... sorcs for example also heavily relied on AoE DoTs for the single target DPS, even prior to their buff and that perfectly illustrates what is/was wrong with the balancing. A class that is designed around direct and delayed single target burst damage is using AoE DoTs for max DPS.

I think what you are pointing out here - correctly in my opinion - is that their quest for GLOBAL rules across the entire skill base is not working. When a class is SUPPOSED to sustain pressure with DoTs, it should be an exception to the standard rules. That is what would give them "class identity".

Instead we are starting to get this really weird approach to skills (really, hits someone five times with a 3,500k cost skill before you can stun them - get real) that is making them rather weird for any continuity of combat rotations.

The global rules were a good idea, everything was everywhere before and it was chaotic but I think that in this case maybe Soul Trap and Entropy could have worked under different guidelines, I am just not sure what. I mean they could have just nerfed Soul Trap and Entropy by a little, maybe 15-20%. Then maybe they'd still be within the DoTs rules and nothing else would have to be changed

Cinbri

After dot meta update I was using exact same skills as before update, (so only change was that entropy stoped being garbage) and everything was fine but after update suddenly started to recieve ragewhispers that i just "dot cancer tank". It just showed me clearly enough how brainless vocal majority that zos cater toward.

SapAndFury

chrightt wrote: »

A perfectly not well thought out response to an already annoying issue. Soul Trap getting nerfed by 50% is fine already. I doubt it'll see much plays other than filling soul gems. Entropy nerfed by 50% should be fine too because other DoTs should've been nerfed less than 50%. Nerfing Entropy/soultrap only by 60%-80% would not only make both skills straight out garbage it'll just leave DoTs like physical DoT Blood Craze a mile stronger than any shared magical DoT. Other DoTs were definitely outperforming skills by a mile as well, they just don't deserve a 40-60% nerf like what ZoS did to them.

TL;DR OP is stam and doesn't think.

OP mains a Mag DK, is 95% a PVPer (we all gotta grind for gear), and has 166 days played on his main. Please use this information when drawing further inaccurate conclusions about me.

Couple of points:

1) A 50% nerf to entropy still makes it do more damage next patch than my burning embers

2) People will still slot Entropy with a 60-80% nerf, provided it retains major sorcery. The DOT on entropy is not the primary purpose of the skill, rather it is a secondary benefit. Even when it ticks for peanuts it still allows for synergy with Skoria. Also Templar’s will still run structured entropy in order to use the front/back bar health difference to proc Transmutation before a fight.

3)Balance was great in Elswyer and never needed the overbuff to Entropy and Soul Trap in the first place. Sure, too many people had easy access to major protection, but that was largely fixed with the changes to Pirate Skeleton. Ironically, I predicted when the Scalebreaker PTS was out that ZOS would nerf class skills to fix their balance they were breaking. One patch later, here we are.

SapAndFury

Galarthor wrote: »

The root of the problem is / was that DoTs dealt 2.5 times the DPS per global cooldown than direct damage attacks. By halfing the DPS output of DoTs and thus bringing it down to 1.25 times the DPS per global cooldown than direct damage attacks ZOS is actually addressing the root of the problem.

You will still be dealing 25% more damage with a DoT than with a comparable direct damage attack. So stop complaining.

I’m pretty sure the 2.5X rule is per cast. If you cast a DOT skill every global cool down (1s) it does not do more damage than a spammable.

Nerhesi

SapAndFury wrote: »

Why not just address the root cause of the DOT meta problem? Entropy and Soul Trap should never have become DOT mainstays. Nerf the damage of 2 skills by 60-80% and be done with it.

Because then you need Entropy and Soul Trap for every class in their skill tree...

You can't remove generic dots screwing over the classes that dont have good class dots and say it's ok for other classes to maintain the same DPS just because they happen to have them in the skill tree.

How about we remove melee spammables from generic trees and leave just class ones?...

danno8

Galarthor wrote: »

The root of the problem is / was that DoTs dealt 2.5 times the DPS per global cooldown than direct damage attacks. By halfing the DPS output of DoTs and thus bringing it down to 1.25 times the DPS per global cooldown than direct damage attacks ZOS is actually addressing the root of the problem.

You will still be dealing 25% more damage with a DoT than with a comparable direct damage attack. So stop complaining.

No, the problem is that instead of any DoT's it is better to just slot damage boosting skills that will easily crank your direct damage attacks much higher than 25%, then just spam a single spammable.

I think many people believe the sweet spot is somewhere in the 1.75X range.

SapAndFury

Nerhesi wrote: »

SapAndFury wrote: »

Why not just address the root cause of the DOT meta problem? Entropy and Soul Trap should never have become DOT mainstays. Nerf the damage of 2 skills by 60-80% and be done with it.

Because then you need Entropy and Soul Trap for every class in their skill tree...

You can't remove generic dots screwing over the classes that dont have good class dots and say it's ok for other classes to maintain the same DPS just because they happen to have them in the skill tree.

How about we remove melee spammables from generic trees and leave just class ones?...

Out of curiosity, what class are you referencing as not having good class dots, and is your complaint PVE or PVP oriented?

My general experience has been that for the duration I have played this game, DOTs in PVP are less desirable compared to delayed damage timed with direct damage, and in PVE where DOTs are king you are usually well complimented by PVE oriented skills from the weapon trees.

The major balance issues happened with the overbuff of the secondary functions of a self buff skill (entropy) and a questing skill (soul trap).

Somewhere

While all of the DOTs were over performing, the degree to which was not equal. It is OK that your DOTs from weapons and clashes deal more damage than a generic one from world skills and guild skills.

You give up nothing in your build to run Entropy (except being magicka) or Soul Trap. If wanna slap Soul Trap on a character I dont have to be a specific class, have a specific weapon, or even be invested into just stamina or magicka. It works for both. Its versatility alone justifies a heavier nerf than what other skills received, especially class DOTs.

Basically what I am saying is that if soul trap is gonna be 1.25x a spammable, these class DOTs should be 1.5x or 1.75x.

Sadly, every skill is being treated as equal when it's obvious they are not.

artal

First of all not all dots are equal and should not be treated so.
Also not every class is build same way and rely on dots equally. Mag dk (i dont play one) is the class that need dots more than others. Class that dont have execute, was using dots as means of pressure and healing. Nerfing those into oblivion is beyond ***.

Entropy is utility skill, ranged, major sorcery, regen, heal... it doesn't have to be big dmg dealer to be useful, but for instance embers are melee skill, class dots, important heal and pressure for class without execute and its pile of sh#t now.

Soul trap should never have been buff to what it is on live. I just have no idea what they were thinking.

And for the other class dots they should not have been nerfed like this, not even close, but they should not generalize them all in one category. Each class is bit different and dots should be adjusted to it.

Rittings

Funny thing is they talk about build diversities - but they are pushing everyone down the same rabbit hole... I loved the idea of soul trap and trap becoming viable dots and put into new builds... but that's now taken away (again). It's just ridiculous. They don't think to adjust other areas of the game... it's just a constant nerf-fest.

Rittings

I'll tell you how bad it's become... my characters are still wearing Scathing Mage, Moondancer and Skoria... because those sets haven't been touched in a long time, and I honestly can't be bothered to spend weeks farming a set to wear for just 2 months before it gets nerfed. Too grindy...

mague

Wayshuba wrote: »

Duels go on for ten minutes solid and end with both players calling a draw because no one can kill someone else.

But that IS perfect balance of damage and heals. If two equal skilled players fight it has to be a draw !!

SapAndFury

mague wrote: »

Wayshuba wrote: »

Duels go on for ten minutes solid and end with both players calling a draw because no one can kill someone else.

But that IS perfect balance of damage and heals. If two equal skilled players fight it has to be a draw !!

I disagree. 10+ minute duels are almost always a sign of absence of damage compared to defense (For the love of god, ZOS, don’t read this post and decide you need to nerf defense). Many balanced duals will fall into a brief dance where players run through the same skill sequence several times over. Each is trying to set up their damage combo, disrupt the other player’s combo, and not drop their proactive healing and self buffs. The exact rhythm of this dance depends on the meta, but it always happens. Afterwards each player will choose to change small things - let their health drop lower to extend their damage window, hold their cc in order to use it offensively rather than to break the other player’s combo, etc. If a patch or build has low damageVSdefence, the penalty for error that an offensive player subjects themself to is much lower and similarly so is the reward for taking the risk.

Good duels have some amount of duration to them - nobody just unloads all damage until the other person pops, and usually there is some switch in control of the fight (preferably several times). They also critically have a conclusion that is tied to either the winner’s perfect sequencing of skills, or the loser not reacting at a critical point.

Juhasow

Galarthor wrote: »

The root of the problem is / was that DoTs dealt 2.5 times the DPS per global cooldown than direct damage attacks. By halfing the DPS output of DoTs and thus bringing it down to 1.25 times the DPS per global cooldown than direct damage attacks ZOS is actually addressing the root of the problem.

You will still be dealing 25% more damage with a DoT than with a comparable direct damage attack. So stop complaining.

Problem is there are skills like wrecking blow which are reaching similar or even higher tooltips then the DoTs. Basically wrecking blow spam combined with fact it gives empower provides You with similar DPS as rotation filled with Dots. If DoT dmg is just slightly higher then direct dmg then what's the point to even use DoTs other then few special abilities that does something more then just raw dmg ? People are able to reach now like 85k DPS with rotations full of weaving , Dots and keeping uptimes high and close to 80k DPS with just spam of wrecking blow+class burst direct dmg (relentess focus , sub assault etc) and then execute at the end. What's the point of DoTs ? 10% more DPS is not compensating the effort put into the rotation. It just makes the game boring.

Fact that DoTs have 25% higher scaling then instant cast direct damage abilities doesnt mean Your real dmg will be 25% higher. In reality Your DPS will be 15% higher if You're really good at rotation and less then 10% if You're not. It may even turn out some people will be doing more DPS with braindead spam then with rotation that have multiple DoTs and spammable. It's literally disencouraging people from learning the game.