Rune Cage Needs An Overhaul

Galarthor

In its current form Rune Cage is just useless:

1) It is far to unreliable: It is dodgeable and essentially has a huge traveling time (delay) combined a very obvious telegraph, which means anybody who wants to avoid the stun, can do so easily.
2) It does not really offer any secondary effect since the damage will usually never be dealt due the stun being broken before it expires.

The dodgeability wouldn't be such a huge issue, if it delay wasn't that large - e.g. look a Javelins, they work quite well due to their high speed. Though it still leaves the stun utterly useless against mainly stam builds that are based around dodging a lot.

There is nothing really to be said about the seconday damage effect. It is just bad. And I don't really think damage and hard stun should be on the same ability. I'd suggest adding some debuff for the target or buff for the sorc, which procs on stunning the target rather than on the stun actually running its full course.

Therefore I suggest the following to make Rune Cage viable:
1) Keep the delay to make it "unique".
2) Make it undodgeable to offset the delay and the huge telegraph making the skill more reliable.
3) Add some buff or debuff as a secondary effect that procs on stunning the target, rather than the stun expiring.

It'd also fit with the sorcs identity of delayed burst. The delay and huge telegraph give opponents more time to prepare than any other comparable hard CC in the game. If necessary reduce the range as a stun stunning people from 15m is still a whole of a lot better than a stun NOT stunning people from 28m away.

InvictusApollo

Galarthor wrote: »

If necessary reduce the range as a stun stunning people from 15m is still a whole of a lot better than a stun NOT stunning people from 28m away.

No, no, no, no - no more nerfs to ranged stuns range. Other ideas are nice though.

Royalthought

Still being 28 meters I wouldn't have mentioned this if I were you.

If you look at every other ranged CC besides javelin, every one of them has been nerfed.

This is one of the last ranged CC's left. Besides ul...... nvm. lol

Galarthor

It might be 28m, but what good is it going to do if it is not stunning your enemy b/c of it the telegraph and delay and the fact that it can be dodged?

Sure it might work on NPCs, but the kind of NPCs that can actually be stunned are the ones that don't need to be stunned anyway.

So that pretty much only leaves PvP as a scenario where Rune Cage can be useful. Which brings us back to my original post.

Casterial

It's purgable to

Galarthor

Casterial wrote: »

It's purgable to

Didn't know that. Though that is only an issue due to the delay and mostly against Templars and to some extent against Wardens. Guess that needs to be addressed too then if the delay stays on the ability.

Casterial

Galarthor wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

It's purgable to

Didn't know that. Though that is only an issue due to the delay and mostly against Templars and to some extent against Wardens. Guess that needs to be addressed too then if the delay stays on the ability.

Runecage use to be good, honestly just roll with streak. Eventually when use rate lowers they'll change it.

Galarthor

Casterial wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Casterial wrote: »

It's purgable to

Didn't know that. Though that is only an issue due to the delay and mostly against Templars and to some extent against Wardens. Guess that needs to be addressed too then if the delay stays on the ability.

Runecage use to be good, honestly just roll with streak. Eventually when use rate lowers they'll change it.

I am running streak, that doesn't make this much better though and ZOS is currently reworking some of the less use abilities. Besides forcing people to use streak only puts strain on the servers (compared to stunning via Rune Cage) and would mean that redesigning Ball of Lightning was a waste of resources on the part of ZOS.

Victor_Blade

Rune cage on its own isn't that good but combined with meteor, cfrag, mages wrath it's silly op. The delay is cool cos that way it lands with meteor. Meteor is blockbale and rune cage is dodgable but when both land at the same time it's unavoidable. Funny when sorcs complain about their skills when they have such an op preloaded burst combo 😂😂

Chilly-McFreeze

Oh please, don’t ever make it undodgeable again.

Ragnaroek93

It should do a bit more than just a stun when it actually hits but making it undodgeable is terrible, especially on class that is designed around delayed burst. Don't turn this into an I win button as it was in summerset...

Vapirko

This was another classic ZOS over nerf.

Iki

Ranged hard cc should never be undodgeable/unavoidable. Did Summerset teach you nothing?
However, as it is now, rune cage is weak and does poorly what it is intended to do. I`d like to see them speeding it up and change that small amount of damage to happen on impact, to make it be close to what javelin is now. Fast damage-dealing stun that can be avoided if one can react fast. Theoretical counter-play must exist, but it should not be too easy in practise.

Now when rune cage inc, target has time to laugh out loud, activate defensive ability and make a decision to receive and break that cage. Only exception is when its used with meteor, but if ability is good only when comboed with specific expensive ultimate, it`s not good enough as ability.
Please at least make rune cage faster.

Mayrael

I used to use rune cage before summerset when it was just 28m range unavailable cc (and when everybody was running destro reach + master). It was seriously OP back then even without damage component fireing on cc break.

My usual combo was crushing weave till frags proced and then furry, curse, cage into frags. Thanks to delay cage was almost always applying when frags were about to connect with the target, curse was exploding somewhere in between. If the guy eaten curse + frags on top of constant weave less tanky players (and the ones who relied on dodge roll) were exploding in a second.



One thing is sure. Sorc can't have delayed unavoidable stun, it's far to dangerous on this spec as it synergies to good with delayed burst nature of sorc.

Sanguinor2

We´ve been at the "runecage is unavoidable cc" stage already and it enabled magsorc to blow up whoever they wanted unless they were a tank because of frag fury curse Meteor Combo so while runecage might not be ideal atm it going back to unavoidable cc would also be Pretty bad.

redlink1979

Revert the nerfs? No. Undodgeable again? Never.

Lord-Otto

Victor_Blade wrote: »

Rune cage on its own isn't that good but combined with meteor, cfrag, mages wrath it's silly op. The delay is cool cos that way it lands with meteor. Meteor is blockbale and rune cage is dodgable but when both land at the same time it's unavoidable. Funny when sorcs complain about their skills when they have such an op preloaded burst combo 😂😂

Funny when people complain about sorcs when they invent things. This is not how it works.

Galarthor

Victor_Blade wrote: »

Rune cage on its own isn't that good but combined with meteor, cfrag, mages wrath it's silly op. The delay is cool cos that way it lands with meteor. Meteor is blockbale and rune cage is dodgable but when both land at the same time it's unavoidable. Funny when sorcs complain about their skills when they have such an op preloaded burst combo 😂😂

That is very short-sighted. As it basically only allows you to CC a target when you meteor ready. So the entire rest of the fight your target does not have to worry about being stunned, while stunning you every 6 or 7 seconds. Funny when the ignorant try to sound smart 😂😂

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

We´ve been at the "runecage is unavoidable cc" stage already and it enabled magsorc to blow up whoever they wanted unless they were a tank because of frag fury curse Meteor Combo so while runecage might not be ideal atm it going back to unavoidable cc would also be Pretty bad.

And how do you explain why this is not happening now with Streak instead of Rune Cage. I mean everything else is the same as back then. Where is the huge outcry from the victims? Hell, this new combo does not even give you a heads up like Rune Cage's 1.5 sec delay does. You just get stunned. How is that any better than having a 1.5 sec heads up to use some defensive skill or stun the sorc?

There was even plenty of counterplay back in the day. You slowly saw people adapting to it and I am not talking about going full tank (though for many stam builds there is little difference in this heavy armor meta we have been having for years now). However, Rune Cage got nerfed into the ground before these adaptations in the playstyle against sorcs ever made it into the middle and lower tiers of PvP players.

@Mayrael except, Rune Cage did not have the delay back then. Sure it wasn't as fast as some others, but the delay was only added after they nerfed Rune Cage into the ground. If you feel the 1.5 sec delay is the issue, then make Rune Cage instant. I fail to see how that makes it any better balance-wise but apparently some of you guys think that a delayed stun would be an issue on a sorc and take no issue with the instant stun granted by Streak.

Victor_Blade

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Victor_Blade wrote: »

Rune cage on its own isn't that good but combined with meteor, cfrag, mages wrath it's silly op. The delay is cool cos that way it lands with meteor. Meteor is blockbale and rune cage is dodgable but when both land at the same time it's unavoidable. Funny when sorcs complain about their skills when they have such an op preloaded burst combo 😂😂

Funny when people complain about sorcs when they invent things. This is not how it works.

Invent things? Even people with 10 iq can land that combo and finish off a semi decent player. Rune cage should be undodgable? Just use streak. It's unblockable and undodgable.

It's not the classes fault if people don't want to use certain skills.

Sanguinor2

Galarthor wrote: »

And how do you explain why this is not happening now with Streak instead of Rune Cage. I mean everything else is the same as back then. Where is the huge outcry from the victims? Hell, this new combo does not even give you a heads up like Rune Cage's 1.5 sec delay does. You just get stunned. How is that any better than having a 1.5 sec heads up to use some defensive skill or stun the sorc?

There was even plenty of counterplay back in the day. You slowly saw people adapting to it and I am not talking about going full tank (though for many stam builds there is little difference in this heavy armor meta we have been having for years now). However, Rune Cage got nerfed into the ground before these adaptations in the playstyle against sorcs ever made it into the middle and lower tiers of PvP players.

Imo the reason for that is that much fewer sorcs are using the Combo, most of the mediocre and bad sorcs dont use streak offensively ever so you see much less sorcs using that Combo when only the good sorcs do it.

Galarthor

Victor_Blade wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Victor_Blade wrote: »

Rune cage on its own isn't that good but combined with meteor, cfrag, mages wrath it's silly op. The delay is cool cos that way it lands with meteor. Meteor is blockbale and rune cage is dodgable but when both land at the same time it's unavoidable. Funny when sorcs complain about their skills when they have such an op preloaded burst combo 😂😂

Funny when people complain about sorcs when they invent things. This is not how it works.

Invent things? Even people with 10 iq can land that combo and finish off a semi decent player. Rune cage should be undodgable? Just use streak. It's unblockable and undodgable.

It's not the classes fault if people don't want to use certain skills.

You are refuting your own assertion from ontop here. If undodgeable streak is fine, then undodgeable Rune Cage should be fine too.

I mean, what are you really complaining about here? All I see is some anti-sorc propaganda like "loool, sorcs are OP and want buffs", but you haven't really provided any good arguments against Rune Cage being undodgeable. You are even ok with Streak being undodgeable, so sorcs having an undodgeable stun isn't really the issue here for you. Sorcs don't really gain anything potential-wise, which makes your trolling and/or ignorance quite obvious.

I would also be fine with removing the undodgeable part from Streak. I am trying to make both skills useful (streak and rune cage). That would even mean sorcs had to add another skill to their already overloaded skill bars. It makes far more sense to have a single target undodgeable CC rather than an AoE undodgeable CC ...

Galarthor

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

And how do you explain why this is not happening now with Streak instead of Rune Cage. I mean everything else is the same as back then. Where is the huge outcry from the victims? Hell, this new combo does not even give you a heads up like Rune Cage's 1.5 sec delay does. You just get stunned. How is that any better than having a 1.5 sec heads up to use some defensive skill or stun the sorc?

There was even plenty of counterplay back in the day. You slowly saw people adapting to it and I am not talking about going full tank (though for many stam builds there is little difference in this heavy armor meta we have been having for years now). However, Rune Cage got nerfed into the ground before these adaptations in the playstyle against sorcs ever made it into the middle and lower tiers of PvP players.

Imo the reason for that is that much fewer sorcs are using the Combo, most of the mediocre and bad sorcs dont use streak offensively ever so you see much less sorcs using that Combo when only the good sorcs do it.

You don't really find bad sorcs outside of large groups at which point this whole discussion becomes kinda pointless b/c the undodgebale stuns from the other classes in the group kick in. That has been true back then and is true now. So the sorcs one-shotting you with rune cage were the sorcs that belong to the better half of the spectrum. And those are the sorcs you see using streak nowadays. It's not really much harder to remember to streak through your enemy right after you dropped your meteor. Granted, Streak has to be aimed more precisely, but given that most fights are in melee range and Streak is an AoE stun you don't really have to aim that much ... . The biggest difficulty in using streak to stun is actually server lag and the server seeing your opponent at the different position than you see them on your screen.

Also, have you ever wondered, why Rune Cage only became popular after the damage on stun was added? It was undodgeable long before it became popular!

Sanguinor2

Galarthor wrote: »

You don't really find bad sorcs outside of large groups at which point this whole discussion becomes kinda pointless b/c the undodgebale stuns from the other classes in the group kick in. That has been true back then and is true now. So the sorcs one-shotting you with rune cage were the sorcs that belong to the better half of the spectrum. And those are the sorcs you see using streak nowadays. It's not really much harder to remember to streak through your enemy right after you dropped your meteor. Granted, Streak has to be aimed more precisely, but given that most fights are in melee range and Streak is an AoE stun you don't really have to aim that much ... . The biggest difficulty in using streak to stun is actually server lag and the server seeing your opponent at the different position than you see them on your screen.

Also, have you ever wondered, why Rune Cage only became popular after the damage on stun was added? It was undodgeable long before it became popular!

Well in my experience (mostly bgs) there is very few sorcs that stun with streak, most are Content sitting at range and blasting you, I can imagine that you can find more (offensively) streaking sorcs in cyro.
I assumed that rune Cage became popular because many People talked About it in summerset pts after it got buffed so more People took notice and tried it themselves, Pretty much how many Things become popular, someone notices its strong/overbuffed on pts and tells it in the Forums and word spreads another reason might be that reachspam with master staff was simply too strong to trade against something with no Damage attached (and sorcs were used to cc doing Damage with frag stun being removed only at cwc iirc).

If rune Cage being unavoidable would return then sorc would have to be very carefully watched in Terms of the Damage they can achieve to hit at the same time since it could turn unhealthy very quick.

Emma_Overload

People keep saying "use Streak" but Streak isn't as good in practice as it is on paper.

The problem? By the time you turn around to face the enemy you just Streaked, he's already broken free AND roll dodged to escape your frag!

I've practiced streaking (and turning around 180 degrees) over and over and over and over. It doesn't matter how fast I am, there are many good players out there who break free so fast that the CC was wasted.

They need to give Sorcs a reliable CC that actually WORKS. If we can't keep them CC'd long enough to complete a combo, what is the point?

Lord-Otto

Victor_Blade wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Victor_Blade wrote: »

Rune cage on its own isn't that good but combined with meteor, cfrag, mages wrath it's silly op. The delay is cool cos that way it lands with meteor. Meteor is blockbale and rune cage is dodgable but when both land at the same time it's unavoidable. Funny when sorcs complain about their skills when they have such an op preloaded burst combo 😂😂

Funny when people complain about sorcs when they invent things. This is not how it works.

Invent things? Even people with 10 iq can land that combo and finish off a semi decent player. Rune cage should be undodgable? Just use streak. It's unblockable and undodgable.

It's not the classes fault if people don't want to use certain skills.

Have you ever tried that combo and looked closely at what's happening?

Borys_Finlay

Leave freaking rune cage the way it is atm.
Dont give zos another reason to nerf ccs range, its been ridiculous already, first clench (15 m? Thats basicly melee ffs) then reduced scatter to 22, and now on pts draining shot doesnt even stun. Javelin being reduced to 22 and ignores resists ( idk why the hell, unless they r loading the skill with crap so that ppl wont complain much about the reduced range and then down the road they say its doing too many things at once and remove all that they added. So in the end u have a worse skill).

They want everybody melee, how fun its going to be, staves? Bows? Need to get close range to be able to CC. And with the amount of healing ppl have, u NEED to cc, otherwise u wont kill anyone.

So leave rune cage exactly the way it is now, no changes needed, its unreliable, ppl will dodge/purge it but at least is ranged, and thats all that matter. Also i couldnt care less about its dmg.

Darkenarlol

once upon a time has ZOS said that sorc needs some buff...


it turned into great buff to rune cage AND DK's fossilize

and then to 5 ugly nerfs to rune cage that brought that ability

to much worse position than it was before all those *buffs*

(when it was allready mostly abandoned, except def morph,

which they nerfed along with the offensive one)

but you know... all those buffs reamains untouched on DK's fossi


maybe one day totally overnerfed rune cage will shine again

in comparison to other abilities that ZOS gonna nerf to the ground

Galarthor

@Sanguinor2 if anything it was the latter since Reach stunned and dealt damage, something that would require 2 global cooldowns when you used rune cage. But still. The way people portray undodgable Rune Cage to be OP makes you wonder why sorcs didn't use it back then. I mean what I propose is basically the pre-Summerset Rune Cage with an additional delay (which it currently already has) to give players short window to react/prepare precisely b/c sorcs have delayed burst.

But the undodgeable component mandatory due to accessibility and availability of dodge roll in PvP, as well as the fact that the enemy can combine attacks with dodge rolls by dodge roll canceling their attacks. Otherwise, there is no reason to use Rune Cage at all. Players will rather go back to Reach Spam since it essentially achieves the same thing at a far lower cost, has the added effect of also dealing damage, and does not cost and additional bar slot.

I agree that power levels have to be closely monitored b/c an easy 1-shot mechanic that any newbie and even the most untalented sorcs can pull off with ease is not really balanced and any fun at all. However, neither is an rahter expensive stun with a huge telegraph and a significant delay that any idiot with half a brain can easily avoid while still dealing damage to you.

For that very reason all other classes, except for the warden, got stuns that are either literally or de facto unavoidable. B/c a stun that doesn't stun or a stun that doesn't allow you to land a blow before the enemy breaks and counters it is useless.

Vapirko

Emma_Overload wrote: »

People keep saying "use Streak" but Streak isn't as good in practice as it is on paper.

The problem? By the time you turn around to face the enemy you just Streaked, he's already broken free AND roll dodged to escape your frag!

I've practiced streaking (and turning around 180 degrees) over and over and over and over. It doesn't matter how fast I am, there are many good players out there who break free so fast that the CC was wasted.

They need to give Sorcs a reliable CC that actually WORKS. If we can't keep them CC'd long enough to complete a combo, what is the point?

What’s that Emma? A dodgeable, blockable CC that has a delay isn’t reliable? Do tell.

TheYKcid

I quite enjoy @ZarkingFrued's summary of the skill:

ZarkingFrued wrote: »

rune cage is like an advanced math question

I don't think any other skill in the game has quite as many caveats, asterisks and what-ifs attached to it. When people have to jump through multiple hoops to access their class CC, it might just be a good idea to start over from scratch.

TheYKcid

Tbh, given the homogenisation rampage that ZOS has been on, a redesign will probably just end with us getting a class CC that's:

• single-target
• projectile-based
• blockable and dodgeable
• 16m range
• 43.5% the direct damage of a generic spammable

Flame Clench? Never heard of it...

*cough*