Poison Injection (& Similar Abilities) Overnerfed + Commentary on Ability Ruleset System & Its Flaws

Yiko

So ZOS has established ability rulesets and is in the process of pigeonholing abilities into those rulesets by modifying core functionality. The goal of these rulesets and categorization is to be able to balance the game more easily down the road. I would like to discuss some of the ramifications I've seen so far from this process/system from a PVP perspective.
I'll be covering abilities like Poison Injection, Destructive Reach, Cripple, Shade, and Entropy.

First, I'd like to compare the live versions of Poison Injection and Consuming Trap vs. what they would look like with these PTS changes, using the tooltips from my unbuffed direct-damage CP Nightblade. Consuming Trap is categorized as a DoT in the ruleset, while Poison Injection is classified as instant damage + DoT package.

Poison Injection: 4408 instant damage + 15395 damage over 10s = 19803 damage total
PTS Poison Injection DoT nerfed by 63%: 4408 + (15395 x .37 = 5696) = 10104 damage total

Consuming Trap: 19254 over 10s
PTS Consuming Trap DoT nerfed by 50%: 19254 x .5 = 9627

These abilities appear to be balanced around doing comparable levels of total damage, all things considered. Next to analyze how the DoT portions match up on live and on PTS.

Consuming is doing 19254/15395 = 25% more damage over time than Poison Injection on the live patch.
With PTS changes, Consuming Trap will be doing 9627/5696 = 69% more damage over time.

The difference between these values is staggering. The goal of using DoTs is to cushion your burst window by providing passive damage while you do direct damage. However, players can just heal or block the instant damage, meaning that the most significant part is the lingering DoT. Going from 25% more damage on a standard DoT vs. the DoT damage from an instant+DoT package ability to 69% more damage is actually crazy, imo. I'm wondering what specifically lead to these numbers. Why were Instant+DoT package abilities (like Poison Injection, Destructive Reach, Searing Strike) nerfed by more than other DoTs when the DoT portion was already weaker? To reach the same total damage? If ZOS is adamant about sticking to their whimsically determined total damage standard because of some ruleset principle, then other functions of the abilities need to be addressed to make up for lost relative value.

Here's one of the problems with this ruleset system and auditing:
Even with the FULL double damage from the 100% execute on Poison Injection, you would get 5696*2 = 11392 over 10s for the DoT, which is 11392/9627 = only 18% more damage than Consuming Trap at MAXIMUM execute effectiveness. So how did we get here?

In Scalecaller, Poison Injection's cost went from 2430 to 2700. The initial hit had its damage value reduced by 17%. The DoT damage was increased by 78%, while the execute scaling was dropped from 260% to 100%. This was to fit Poison Injection into ZOS' ruleset of instant damage+DoT (and auxiliary function, scaling % execute damage in this case).

After the DoT damage was increased by 78%, it's now being decreased by 63% in this PTS, without ANY other changes. This is how Poison Injection on PTS has wound up FAR worse than it was 2 patches ago, when it had 260% execute scaling. They nerf-buffed the ability and now are nerfing the buff without addressing the previous nerfs. This is the same case as Destructive Reach, which lost stun utility and instant damage.

Because of their established rulesets + principles, they have nerfed standard DoTs by 50% and instant+DoT packages by 60-63% in order to reach comparable levels of total damage WITHOUT paying respect to auxiliary ability functions. More value has to be brought back to Poison Injection (& similar abilities), perhaps with higher scaling execute damage or base DoT damage.

This is one of my bigger critiques of the "Ruleset system." During the auditing process, these abilities are fundamentally changed to FORCE them to fit within the established rulesets.

In this case, they took the MAIN functions of these abilities and removed/reduced them in order to make them auxiliary functions, while replacing the main function with DoT damage. They then nerfed the new main function of these abilities without addressing the auxiliary functions that were initially removed/reduced in order to allow these abilities to be categorized as damage+DoT ruleset abilities in the first place. This also does not take into account the fact that every class/spec is going to receive these changes differently, especially considering what some of them might have lost to get there. This demonstrates that ruleset standards that were created for easier balancing are not allowing ZOS to reach that goal, because the abilities' value is more complex than the damage number on the tooltip.

The NEXT critique of the Ruleset system is that it pays little respect to how an ability is functioning in actual gameplay. The changes are not for the sake of balance, they're for the sake of categorization and standardization.
Let's look at Cripple for an example. In Elsweyr, Cripple was changed to conform to the Damage Over Time ruleset. It gained a very small DPS increase for its ticks, gained a 2 second duration increase, lost a bit of snare potency, and... lost Major Expedition. Why did it lose Major Expedition, you ask? Because in a vacuum, this ability with Major Expedition on it would be better than other DoTs in the ruleset. I do not imagine that anyone would argue that Magblades needed a nerf, though, so this removal feels contrived. The class source of Major Expedition was kept on Path of Darkness. The number of Magblades in small scale PVP is incredibly low, and I imagine the number of those that use Path of Darkness is far lower.

The next patch, Cripple gained a slight cost reduction and a 17% DoT increase, while other DoTs also received buffs. Now THIS PTS, Cripple's damage was reduced by 50%, alongside other abilities in the Damage Over Time ruleset. Because ZOS looks at things with a microscope or in a vacuum, makes sweeping changes for abilities in a ruleset, and doesn't make changes looking at the bigger picture or actual gameplay (instead opting to make changes based on arbitrary principles), Cripple has wound up doing less DPS than it did before all of these changes while ALSO having a weaker snare and losing Major Expedition on what is generally regarded as one of the worst performing classes in PVP. What sense does this make? Homogenizing things like this when there are so many other contributing factors to balance just leads to a reduction in class identity without actual class balancing.

Next up is Summon Shade, specifically the Shadow Image morph. Last patch, it received a much needed fix to the reliability of its port alongside a 50% cost increase. This patch, ZOS is reducing the damage of Shade by 42% per hit. This is expected, as other DoTs' potencies are being reduced. An example of the shortcomings of the ruleset system: sweeping changes with ruleset standards pay no attention as to whether or not NBs should lose this damage in terms of class balance - they simply do. Do note that I'm not necessarily saying NBs should keep the damage, I'm just saying that there is a lack of consideration.

The more important point: on top of that, ZOS is also forcing the ability into the ruleset of the "gap closer or creator standard" by bringing the teleport range from 28m down to 22m. Again, my question is: why? They cannot possibly reach this conclusion through a gameplay or balance perspective, so it is my assumption that they felt a strong need to categorize this ability, decided on the gap closer/creator standard, and elected to, LIKE BEFORE, reduce some of an ability's core functionality to make it fit within their chosen ruleset. Why is Shade meant to operate under the gap closer or creator standard? Shadow Image doesn't even create or close distance on the ability's initial cast. It can teleport a player through terrain and structures (line of sight). It can bring a player straight up the Z-axis. Is ANY OTHER gap closer or creator intended to function like that? I don't think so, so why is it being forced into this category with nearly a quarter of its range trimmed off as collateral? It's one of the few abilities in the game that still requires strategy, planning, and consideration to use well. Why target that for nerfs? Is UNDO going to be limited to 22m (once it's finally fixed)? If you want to hit NB survivability, maybe address what is generally perceived as a giant crutch: Cloak. This Shade change does not make sense from a balance/gameplay perspective, and it does not make sense from ZOS' own ruleset system. Leave this ability alone. I repeat: leave this ability alone. If it MUST be changed for whatever reason, then the 50% cost increase should be reverted.

One last example of the Ruleset system's flaws features Entropy. They took what was a utility spell and transformed it into a DoT superloaded with utility. We all know how that worked out. It's a very basic and relatable example of the imbalance that results when an ability is pigeonholed into a ruleset category without proper consideration for its auxiliary effects.

I'm tired of typing.

Summary:
Because of ZOS' insistence on using these rulesets, ZOS needs to buff Poison Injection (perhaps through its auxiliary function) and similar abilities to make up for the lost value that resulted from this PTS' DoT nerfs and the core functionalities removed/reduced in the previous ability audit. They need to be more considerate in their sweeping nerfs of categories of rulesets and, in this case, understand that these abilities and their relative power levels are more than the DoT numbers attached to them. ALL of an ability's functions must be considered when it is changed. The standardization of abilities process must give proper consideration to other balance elements.

ZOS must stop examining abilities in a vacuum, without proper regard for gameplay/balance/how something feels in practice. Also, they need to stop forcing abilities *COUGH* SHADOW IMAGE *COUGH* into their ruleset categories just for the sake of having it categorized, especially when it does not functionally belong there.

Thanks for reading, and let me know what you think~


Side notes (not totally related to the main message of the post):
- I didn't want to get really into class balance discussion in this post, but maybe I'll touch on the potential for leeway (strength and weakness by design) to be used within the rulesets if relevant.
- I think that ALL DoT damage should be slightly increased, but specifically in this post, I'm calling attention to ZOS to be more wary of an ability's total value when ALL of its functions are considered, especially its post-audit relative value compared to its historical value.
- I also think that class DoTs should be slightly stronger than universal DoTs, and melee DoTs should be stronger than ranged DoTs b/c of risk. vs reward.

susmitds

Poison is virtually being punished for having a direct damage part, which won't scale with the execute multiplier. That 5k DoT tooltip over 10 secs might as well be non-existent as that won't ever be a threat to anybody in PvP and will be beaten by basic axe bleed and stuff like Viper/Sheer Venom in both PvE and PvP.

etelmocub18_ESO

Yiko wrote: »

This is my biggest critique of the "Ruleset system." During the auditing process, these abilities are fundamentally changed to FORCE them to fit within the established rulesets.

It's not just damage...

Crystallized Shield:

Crystallized Slab (morph): This morph now has a 500ms internal cooldown on the damage return and Magicka refund, similar to other abilities such as Dragon Fire Scale or Living Dark.

Remembering that Crystallized shield lasts 6 seconds and absorbs a total of 3 projectiles, not an unlimited amount... but it now falls under the rules used for other abilities. I believe on the current PTS if you're hit several times within the 500ms delay it only procs once, and is then removed.

Yiko

susmitds wrote: »

Poison is virtually being punished for having a direct damage part, which won't scale with the execute multiplier. That 5k DoT tooltip over 10 secs might as well be non-existent as that won't ever be a threat to anybody in PvP and will be beaten by basic axe bleed and stuff like Viper/Sheer Venom in both PvE and PvP.

Yup, this PTS iteration pales in comparison to how it functioned pre-Scalebreaker. It actually needs to be addressed.

etelmocub18_ESO wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

This is my biggest critique of the "Ruleset system." During the auditing process, these abilities are fundamentally changed to FORCE them to fit within the established rulesets.

It's not just damage...

Crystallized Shield:

Crystallized Slab (morph): This morph now has a 500ms internal cooldown on the damage return and Magicka refund, similar to other abilities such as Dragon Fire Scale or Living Dark.

Remembering that Crystallized shield lasts 6 seconds and absorbs a total of 3 projectiles, not an unlimited amount... but it now falls under the rules used for other abilities. I believe on the current PTS if you're hit several times within the 500ms delay it only procs once, and is then removed.

Yeah, seems like another nerf via standardization without any kind of compensation, though this could be intended in Crystallized Shield's case :P I'm half-kidding
But yeah, generally ZOS isn't giving proper consideration to all balance elements when standardizing an ability.

Darkenarlol

as they've said - they've been *killing it*

and after some time at last killed it (the game)

katorga

ZOS really needs to undo all of the 5.1 update dot changes and THEN look at the numbers and adjust. Poison Injection is a perfect example...it is an execute first and direct damage and a dot.

The 5.1 update massively buffed the dot which justified changing the execute value to 100% from 280% (or whatever it was).
Nerfing the dot back down in 5.2 but failing to reset the execute value back to the higher value wrecks the skill for its intended purpose.

The same applies to Draining Shot. In 5.1 it was deemed "utility" having it's range, damage and heal nerfed due to the attached CC. In 5.2, it loses the CC, and this removes the justification for the previous three nerfs. There are tons of 28m snares, heals, and damage abilities in the game.

Trian94

Reminds me of my ex's texts. I used to agree with them so have an agree

SodanTok

Main part that bothers me is that they basically stripped the core feature in Poison Injection in order to make it better DoT. Its obviously sucky DoT, but thats more the universal goal for all DoTs. Poison Injection was the execute DoT. Its job was pressure on target in execute range. But by being touched and classified and standardized and bastardized its not doing that job anymore. If there is some power budget other execute abilities in some way fit in, they need to use that when treating PI. They for some reason started treating PI as DoT rather than execute DoT and invested all that budget in DoT damage.

Red_Feather

Will the execute % be raised

ChunkyCat

#CliffsNotes

Scamh

ChunkyCat wrote: »

#CliffsNotes

here you go:

Yiko wrote: »

S

Summary:
Because of ZOS' insistence on using these rulesets, ZOS needs to buff Poison Injection (perhaps through its auxiliary function) and similar abilities to make up for the lost value that resulted from this PTS' DoT nerfs and the core functionalities removed/reduced in the previous ability audit. They need to be more considerate in their sweeping nerfs of categories of rulesets and, in this case, understand that these abilities and their relative power levels are more than the DoT numbers attached to them. ALL of an ability's functions must be considered when it is changed. The standardization of abilities process must give proper consideration to other balance elements.

ZOS must stop examining abilities in a vacuum, without proper regard for gameplay/balance/how something feels in practice. Also, they need to stop forcing abilities *COUGH* SHADOW IMAGE *COUGH* into their ruleset categories just for the sake of having it categorized, especially when it does not functionally belong there.

Thanks for reading, and let me know what you think~.

Alienoutlaw

would of saved alot of time by typing "buff Poison Injection"

katorga

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

would of saved alot of time by typing "buff Poison Injection"

It is not just Poison Injection. These inconsistencies are everywhere because they don't look at skills as a whole or as how they interact with class kit and skill mix. DK Burning Embers is primarily a heal based on damage done. 5.1 over buffed the heal, and 5.2 wrecks it as a heal, because ZOS lumps everything in their simplistic "dot" standard. Same for draining shot. Same for Necro archer pet.

Say what you want about Wrobel, but he looked at classes and changes as a holistic, integrated whole. It is a meme now, but the Templar "House" was an example of that.

These last few patches lack any design coherence, core game play philosophy, or structure, and for all of the talk about "standards", no consistency.

Yiko

SodanTok wrote: »

Main part that bothers me is that they basically stripped the core feature in Poison Injection in order to make it better DoT. Its obviously sucky DoT, but thats more the universal goal for all DoTs. Poison Injection was the execute DoT. Its job was pressure on target in execute range. But by being touched and classified and standardized and bastardized its not doing that job anymore. If there is some power budget other execute abilities in some way fit in, they need to use that when treating PI. They for some reason started treating PI as DoT rather than execute DoT and invested all that budget in DoT damage.

Yup. Removed/reduced the main functionality and shifted the main functionality to be the DoT. Nerfed the NEW main functionality and did not provide any recompense to the previously altered function.
Same with Destructive Reach and Cripple (and some other abilities, too)

Trian94 wrote: »

Reminds me of my ex's texts. I used to agree with them so have an agree

Your ex must have been an awesome and handsome person.

ChunkyCat wrote: »

#CliffsNotes

Someone else has directed you via quote to the bolded summary provided in the initial post.

Alienoutlaw wrote: »

would of saved alot of time by typing "buff Poison Injection"

Yeah, then I could get right back to eating glue.

katorga wrote: »

It is not just Poison Injection. These inconsistencies are everywhere because they don't look at skills as a whole or as how they interact with class kit and skill mix. DK Burning Embers is primarily a heal based on damage done. 5.1 over buffed the heal, and 5.2 wrecks it as a heal, because ZOS lumps everything in their simplistic "dot" standard. Same for draining shot. Same for Necro archer pet.

Say what you want about Wrobel, but he looked at classes and changes as a holistic, integrated whole. It is a meme now, but the Templar "House" was an example of that.

These last few patches lack any design coherence, core game play philosophy, or structure, and for all of the talk about "standards", no consistency.

Exactly this. Thank you for elaborating.
I was going to mention Searing Strike (& morphs) also, but I know that they added some duration, a guaranteed status effect, and some DK passives interact with this ability uniquely. Wasn't sure how everything would work out without testing, so I did not want to use that as an example. That said, I kept in mind Burning Embers' heal being affected by the global DoT nerf without any kind of indication that the nerf to mDK healing would be addressed at all. It's like I mentioned in the initial post and what you just articulated: these sweeping changes do not giving proper consideration to the abilities' auxiliary functions or how these abilities operate in class kits.

FrancisCrawford

etelmocub18_ESO wrote: »

Remembering that Crystallized shield lasts 6 seconds and absorbs a total of 3 projectiles, not an unlimited amount... but it now falls under the rules used for other abilities. I believe on the current PTS if you're hit several times within the 500ms delay it only procs once, and is then removed.

If that is really how it works, it sounds like a bug rather than intent.

Royalthought

Honestly I don't think standardization is whats awful about their changes.

It's that they're trying to put everything on the same level..... While not knowing where that level should be. lol

Rikumaru

Dots needed to be reverted to what they used to be, not deleted. DK, a class which part of it's identity is in DoTs got destroyed because of the overbuffing of other DoTs. Poison injection too, this ability used to be one of the best DoTs in the game reduced to uselessness. Instead of understanding they made a mistake on DoTs and reverting it, they just decide to destroy everything in the game which is related to a DoT.

katorga

Royalthought wrote: »

Honestly I don't think standardization is whats awful about their changes.

It's that they're trying to put everything on the same level..... While not knowing where that level should be. lol

The entire point is that you can't put everything on the same level because everything does more than one thing. Just not possible. Besides, every class of skill does X damage, why do I even care what I use? Why even bother theory crafting?

Bladerunner1

I took it off the Nightblade Bow/bow build and saw an improvement, poison injection was just way too weak compared to killers blade in the execute phase. It was also way too weak when not in execute.

evoniee

just embrace it, everybody get nerfed. not fair asking "certain" skill to be exclusive.
oh wait, this must a cheeser

katorga

evoniee wrote: »

just embrace it, everybody get nerfed. not fair asking "certain" skill to be exclusive.
oh wait, this must a cheeser

They kinda of said as much in ESO live toward the end...."If everything dealt the same damage it would be more of like what is cool to experience". 1:02:37.

Yiko

evoniee wrote: »

just embrace it, everybody get nerfed. not fair asking "certain" skill to be exclusive.
oh wait, this must a cheeser

Not much of a reader, are you?

katorga wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Honestly I don't think standardization is whats awful about their changes.

It's that they're trying to put everything on the same level..... While not knowing where that level should be. lol

The entire point is that you can't put everything on the same level because everything does more than one thing. Just not possible. Besides, every class of skill does X damage, why do I even care what I use? Why even bother theory crafting?

Yeah, that's why I touched on class identity and also mentioned leeway if "standardization" is forced. Leeway could be something like having a DoT that does more DPS over a shorter duration, one that lasts longer than others, having a stronger auxiliary effect that helps mitigate a class weakness. It's strength and weakness by design without surpassing the established leeway boundaries of the defined ruleset. It would be building specifically towards a unique, cohesive whole/role where each class can fill that role in effective and different ways. It definitely feels like they have been doing a LOT less of that lately. It's like, they have an established budget of value for the categories of their rulesets that they WILL NOT shy away from, but they don't consider the value budget of the entire class/build that uses these abilities. They don't even consider their own value budgets for the categories of their rulesets, because they obviously didn't bother to change so many abilities' auxiliary functions. It's ridiculous.

Currently ZOS is trying to standardize abilities to lay the foundations for easier class balancing in the future, but we're already seeing the negative ramifications of the standardization/ruleset system without them coming even close to reaching the intended objective of this entire process and system.

C.davis

Yiko wrote: »

evoniee wrote: »

just embrace it, everybody get nerfed. not fair asking "certain" skill to be exclusive.
oh wait, this must a cheeser

Not much of a reader, are you?

This must a cheeser indeed yoko

Chilly-McFreeze

katorga wrote: »

evoniee wrote: »

just embrace it, everybody get nerfed. not fair asking "certain" skill to be exclusive.
oh wait, this must a cheeser

They kinda of said as much in ESO live toward the end...."If everything dealt the same damage it would be more of like what is cool to experience". 1:02:37.

They didn't really said that. Or did they? I've got to look for that stream...

Malyck

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

evoniee wrote: »

just embrace it, everybody get nerfed. not fair asking "certain" skill to be exclusive.
oh wait, this must a cheeser

They kinda of said as much in ESO live toward the end...."If everything dealt the same damage it would be more of like what is cool to experience". 1:02:37.

They didn't really said that. Or did they? I've got to look for that stream...

That may be a little out of context, but see for yourself:

Yiko

Malyck wrote: »

That may be a little out of context, but see for yourself:

Thanks for linking the VOD~

Red_Feather

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

evoniee wrote: »

just embrace it, everybody get nerfed. not fair asking "certain" skill to be exclusive.
oh wait, this must a cheeser

They kinda of said as much in ESO live toward the end...."If everything dealt the same damage it would be more of like what is cool to experience". 1:02:37.

They didn't really said that. Or did they? I've got to look for that stream...

I remember a part where it was said pretty much in that way and it made me think... 'oh oh'.

Tannus15

I said this somewhere else, but I feel like the problem with the current magicka meta is that there are too many single target dots.

soul trap, entropy, flame reach, rune + class skills.

This means it's entirely possible to complete a full rotation with nothing except dots. The outcome of this is that if dots are stronger than spammables to any significant degree then the best way to play is to stack dots.
If dots are NOT strong enough then the best thing to do is to but direct damage as much as possible and only cast spammables.

This is the problem with the current approach to balancing the dots.

consider the current meta, instead of nerfing dots as a whole lets make 2 changes:

soul trap dps was halved and it was given minor force
entropy dps is halved and kept as is (degeneration for sustain, structured for healing)

firstly all mag builds take trap or accelerate off their bars, regain 1 gcd.
builds without sustain problems no longer use degeneration, regain 1 gcd.

Now you don't have enough dots to fill a full rotation, and you want a spammable for at least 2 GCD.

I like the idea of AOE dots doing the same dps as single target dots, which higher costs. It's a good theory, it's just way too expensive on PTS, 2 ground dots should be sustainable (wall + class aoe) which it currently isn't.

Actually, what i would do is change lightning staff from 8% aoe damage increase to X% cost reduction where X is enough to make a difference.

TL DR;
There are too many dots, nerfing / buffing dot dps will force the meta into "no dots" vs "all dots" because of limited skill slots.

Holycannoli

It would have been SO much better to just revert all the changes from August. The way they did was to leave the nerfs from August and add new nerfs now.

It's no wonder we are pissed.

Yiko

Tannus15 wrote: »

TL DR;
There are too many dots, nerfing / buffing dot dps will force the meta into "no dots" vs "all dots" because of limited skill slots.

I also like that AOE DoTs are once again going to be doing the same DPS as single target DoTs with increased cost. You're right in that the increased cost may be too high.

I'm not sure about there being too many DoTs. The patch before Scalebreaker, I felt like DoTs were in a good place. Damage was fine, and many had unique and valuable auxiliary functions. It's possible that ranged builds may still stack DoTs like Entropy and Soul Trap on top of class DoTs, even after the nerfs. It is a braindead but effective way to get damage off in PVP, so I can totally see that.

Holycannoli wrote: »

It would have been SO much better to just revert all the changes from August. The way they did was to leave the nerfs from August and add new nerfs now.

It's no wonder we are pissed.

Yeah, a lot of people are saying to literally just revert back to pre-standardization for DoTs. It feels like the move is to do either that or to properly address the auxiliary functions of DoTs and how they operate in a class kit when balancing.

Zelos

Yes, I can second this. Some abilities like poison injection where overnerfed.