Can the "New Patch = Feels Like Playing a New Game" Trend Please Slow Down?

Corpier

Quite a few players I know don't dislike the patch notes simply because of specific changes, they are frustrated with game play altering changes occurring so often that changes appear as flippant as they are frequent.

I realize it is an MMO developers prerogative to keep people farming/grinding/changing. The chase of new gear sets or buffed old sets, the leveling of the new OP class, the mastery of the new rotation or combo. These are all valid ways of artificially increasing the lifespan of a game as ways to keep people playing. Its important to "shake the snowglobe" or "wash away the sandcastles" to change things at certain points in an MMO's life. It can prevent stagnation and burnout, combat growing powercreep, and can keep the game feeling fresh.

However, this should not happen so frequently that players cannot progress or don't even try for fear that all progress will soon be pointless. If changes occur before players even finish adapting to previous changes, such as if a set gets nerfed before players can finish collecting it, if content becomes more difficult when players struggled previously, or achievements become impossible to complete then players will become frustrated.

It isn't good when progression towards something is uncertain and if players question if its even worth starting on something because it might be made pointless in 3 months, potentially before they finish what they started. People don't want to have to relearn the game or struggle to regain what they already had so often. Better efforts need to be made to have consistency between patches so that players feel a culmination of skill and knowledge over time as the game slowly morphs rather than it feeling like a new game every patch.

Many players are getting sick of knee-jerk, 180 degree changes every patch. Its become a common pattern that one patch somethings gets overnerfed or overbuffed and the next patch the opposite happens as a reaction. There never seems to be subtle well thought out changes. Nothing is ever adjusted by 2% and left to be re-evaluated after testing. Its always "this ability is getting its damage cut in half" or "this type of ability are being buffed by 33%."

The last couple patches are a great example:
People say aoe dots shouldn't hit as hard as single target abilities? Nerf aoe dots and buff single target dots!
People say they don't like the single target dot meta with no spammables? Make single target dots weaker than they were originally! Nerf aoe dots too since they have to be proportionally weaker! Also nerf sustain because heavy attacks aren't dots!

Matthew_Galvanus

it's more, most of us are tired of the knee-jerk reaction ZoS has when its precious PvP minority cries about something being too OP. Adjusting it so it's slightly less overwhelming in PvP? Sure, i can live with that.

Undercutting the new meta's damage by about 40% is a little more than a *slight* adjustment. Most of us are tired of this trend where the meta has a massive shift with each major patch. Sorcerers in particular are rather pissed because we literally just had a massive upheaval to our meta and had to rebuild the character almost from scratch and not even 3-4 months later we get another upheaval that will force another meta shift that requires players to rebuild the character from the ground up once more.

It would be different if they made small changes throughout the year that slowly shifted the meta into something new, that way players had time to adjust and learn the new skills and rotations as well as get the new BiS gear, enchants, food, etc, but as it stands we are constantly living in fear that the next patch will drop the axe on our current build and destroy any semblance of viability.

So pardon me if i tend to get rather angry with ZoS each time they make massive sweeping changes with every. single. patch.

Morgul667

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

it's more, most of us are tired of the knee-jerk reaction ZoS has when its precious PvP minority cries about something being too OP. Adjusting it so it's slightly less overwhelming in PvP? Sure, i can live with that.

Undercutting the new meta's damage by about 40% is a little more than a *slight* adjustment. Most of us are tired of this trend where the meta has a massive shift with each major patch. Sorcerers in particular are rather pissed because we literally just had a massive upheaval to our meta and had to rebuild the character almost from scratch and not even 3-4 months later we get another upheaval that will force another meta shift that requires players to rebuild the character from the ground up once more.

It would be different if they made small changes throughout the year that slowly shifted the meta into something new, that way players had time to adjust and learn the new skills and rotations as well as get the new BiS gear, enchants, food, etc, but as it stands we are constantly living in fear that the next patch will drop the axe on our current build and destroy any semblance of viability.

So pardon me if i tend to get rather angry with ZoS each time they make massive sweeping changes with every. single. patch.

Please dont put this on pvp or pve players

This is on ZOS

akredon_ESO

dude you summed up the Exact reason why i havnt been playing. I have damn whip lash from this last patch to this patch. i feel like ZOS is doing this



ZOS PATCH A: CHANGE SKILLS THAT WERE USELESS/NOT USED BUFF THEM 10000%

*SPONGE BOB VOICE* One Patch Later.....

ZOS: OH NO WE CAN HAVE DOTS DO THAT MUCH DAMAGE WE MUST NERF THEM! *slaps roof of patch* this bad boy can fit so many nerfs.



I do not like calling out the devs because they are the devs, If i wanted a job a ZOS then i would go apply for one. However what i do want is to play a game were the game feels solid, and right now this is not feeling solid to me which is why i am not playing. Maybe patch after this one we will see were we are at.

Corpier

akredon_ESO wrote: »

dude you summed up the Exact reason why i havnt been playing. I have damn whip lash from this last patch to this patch. i feel like ZOS is doing this



ZOS PATCH A: CHANGE SKILLS THAT WERE USELESS/NOT USED BUFF THEM 10000%

*SPONGE BOB VOICE* One Patch Later.....

ZOS: OH NO WE CAN HAVE DOTS DO THAT MUCH DAMAGE WE MUST NERF THEM! *slaps roof of patch* this bad boy can fit so many nerfs.



I do not like calling out the devs because they are the devs, If i wanted a job a ZOS then i would go apply for one. However what i do want is to play a game were the game feels solid, and right now this is not feeling solid to me which is why i am not playing. Maybe patch after this one we will see were we are at.

Thanks man, hopefully we can play together again "One Patch Later".

Corpier

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

it's more, most of us are tired of the knee-jerk reaction ZoS has when its precious PvP minority cries about something being too OP. Adjusting it so it's slightly less overwhelming in PvP? Sure, i can live with that.

Undercutting the new meta's damage by about 40% is a little more than a *slight* adjustment. Most of us are tired of this trend where the meta has a massive shift with each major patch. Sorcerers in particular are rather pissed because we literally just had a massive upheaval to our meta and had to rebuild the character almost from scratch and not even 3-4 months later we get another upheaval that will force another meta shift that requires players to rebuild the character from the ground up once more.

It would be different if they made small changes throughout the year that slowly shifted the meta into something new, that way players had time to adjust and learn the new skills and rotations as well as get the new BiS gear, enchants, food, etc, but as it stands we are constantly living in fear that the next patch will drop the axe on our current build and destroy any semblance of viability.

So pardon me if i tend to get rather angry with ZoS each time they make massive sweeping changes with every. single. patch.

As Morgul said, this isn't on pve or pvp players. Players of both groups cry for buffs and nerfs. Pvpers cry for nerfs to what kills them. Pvers cry for buffs to their class when it isn't the meta. However, this isn't on players who want to enjoy a game, this is on ZOS who balances with a sledgehammer swings the meta like a pendulum.

Lady_Sleepless

Shaking the meta up every year is fine, but every main patch is exhausting.

Kel

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

it's more, most of us are tired of the knee-jerk reaction ZoS has when its precious PvP minority cries about something being too OP.

It's kinda funny.
If you actually listen to what the devs are saying in this video, it almost sounds like it's the end game "you must use these sets or you're doing it wrong" meta chasers driving these changes.

Listen to what they are saying in this video before you react to this post.

https://youtu.be/LXg7S0WxAMQ

Funny, they also say the best way to give feedback is actually posting on the forum.

Jaraal

Nice sentiment, OP, but you'd have better success talking to a brick wall.




They think they are "killing it"....... who are we to change their mindset?

zParallaxz

Kel wrote: »

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

it's more, most of us are tired of the knee-jerk reaction ZoS has when its precious PvP minority cries about something being too OP.

It's kinda funny.
If you actually listen to what the devs are saying in this video, it almost sounds like it's the end game "you must use these sets or you're doing it wrong" meta chasers driving these changes.

Listen to what they are saying in this video before you react to this post.

https://youtu.be/LXg7S0WxAMQ

Funny, they also say the best way to give feedback is actually posting on the forum.

Wow

Agenericname

Kel wrote: »

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

it's more, most of us are tired of the knee-jerk reaction ZoS has when its precious PvP minority cries about something being too OP.

It's kinda funny.
If you actually listen to what the devs are saying in this video, it almost sounds like it's the end game "you must use these sets or you're doing it wrong" meta chasers driving these changes.

Listen to what they are saying in this video before you react to this post.

https://youtu.be/LXg7S0WxAMQ

Funny, they also say the best way to give feedback is actually posting on the forum.

Well, I suppose that ends the "PvP is driving all of the changes" debate.

Corpier

Agenericname wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

it's more, most of us are tired of the knee-jerk reaction ZoS has when its precious PvP minority cries about something being too OP.

It's kinda funny.
If you actually listen to what the devs are saying in this video, it almost sounds like it's the end game "you must use these sets or you're doing it wrong" meta chasers driving these changes.

Listen to what they are saying in this video before you react to this post.

https://youtu.be/LXg7S0WxAMQ

Funny, they also say the best way to give feedback is actually posting on the forum.

Well, I suppose that ends the "PvP is driving all of the changes" debate.

The opinion of one guy making videos is hardly credible enough the end that debate. As for the devs quoted in the video, they talk about damage in a general sense. Never do they specifically mention whether they are talking about damage done to players or npcs, which are completely different as players have 20-40k health and boss npcs have millions.

Again, this is an issue that isn't about pvp or pve. Please stop trying to blame one group or the other, both sides are very vocal on the foruims, both cry for nerfs and buffs. Some players may cry for changes, but it on ZOS to implement them in reasonable ways. This is on ZOS for making too many drastic changes too often.

valeriiya

It's like getting whiplash with every patch

Recent

Corpier wrote: »

Quite a few players I know don't dislike the patch notes simply because of specific changes, they are frustrated with game play altering changes occurring so often that changes appear as flippant as they are frequent.

I realize it is an MMO developers prerogative to keep people farming/grinding/changing. The chase of new gear sets or buffed old sets, the leveling of the new OP class, the mastery of the new rotation or combo. These are all valid ways of artificially increasing the lifespan of a game as ways to keep people playing. Its important to "shake the snowglobe" or "wash away the sandcastles" to change things at certain points in an MMO's life. It can prevent stagnation and burnout, combat growing powercreep, and can keep the game feeling fresh.

However, this should not happen so frequently that players cannot progress or don't even try for fear that all progress will soon be pointless. If changes occur before players even finish adapting to previous changes, such as if a set gets nerfed before players can finish collecting it, if content becomes more difficult when players struggled previously, or achievements become impossible to complete then players will become frustrated.

It isn't good when progression towards something is uncertain and if players question if its even worth starting on something because it might be made pointless in 3 months, potentially before they finish what they started. People don't want to have to relearn the game or struggle to regain what they already had so often. Better efforts need to be made to have consistency between patches so that players feel a culmination of skill and knowledge over time as the game slowly morphs rather than it feeling like a new game every patch.

Many players are getting sick of knee-jerk, 180 degree changes every patch. Its become a common pattern that one patch somethings gets overnerfed or overbuffed and the next patch the opposite happens as a reaction. There never seems to be subtle well thought out changes. Nothing is ever adjusted by 2% and left to be re-evaluated after testing. Its always "this ability is getting its damage cut in half" or "this type of ability are being buffed by 33%."

The last couple patches are a great example:
People say aoe dots shouldn't hit as hard as single target abilities? Nerf aoe dots and buff single target dots!
People say they don't like the single target dot meta with no spammables? Make single target dots weaker than they were originally! Nerf aoe dots too since they have to be proportionally weaker! Also nerf sustain because heavy attacks aren't dots!

I'm with you 100% op. Enough is enough. Great post. The voice if reason. Thank you.

Recent

valeriiya wrote: »

It's like getting whiplash with every patch

Exactly.I couldn't have said it better myself !!!

Recent

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

it's more, most of us are tired of the knee-jerk reaction ZoS has when its precious PvP minority cries about something being too OP. Adjusting it so it's slightly less overwhelming in PvP? Sure, i can live with that.

Undercutting the new meta's damage by about 40% is a little more than a *slight* adjustment. Most of us are tired of this trend where the meta has a massive shift with each major patch. Sorcerers in particular are rather pissed because we literally just had a massive upheaval to our meta and had to rebuild the character almost from scratch and not even 3-4 months later we get another upheaval that will force another meta shift that requires players to rebuild the character from the ground up once more.

It would be different if they made small changes throughout the year that slowly shifted the meta into something new, that way players had time to adjust and learn the new skills and rotations as well as get the new BiS gear, enchants, food, etc, but as it stands we are constantly living in fear that the next patch will drop the axe on our current build and destroy any semblance of viability.

So pardon me if i tend to get rather angry with ZoS each time they make massive sweeping changes with every. single. patch.

Well said i agree with you 100%.

Recent

Corpier wrote: »

akredon_ESO wrote: »

dude you summed up the Exact reason why i havnt been playing. I have damn whip lash from this last patch to this patch. i feel like ZOS is doing this



ZOS PATCH A: CHANGE SKILLS THAT WERE USELESS/NOT USED BUFF THEM 10000%

*SPONGE BOB VOICE* One Patch Later.....

ZOS: OH NO WE CAN HAVE DOTS DO THAT MUCH DAMAGE WE MUST NERF THEM! *slaps roof of patch* this bad boy can fit so many nerfs.



I do not like calling out the devs because they are the devs, If i wanted a job a ZOS then i would go apply for one. However what i do want is to play a game were the game feels solid, and right now this is not feeling solid to me which is why i am not playing. Maybe patch after this one we will see were we are at.

Thanks man, hopefully we can play together again "One Patch Later".

The devs are breaking the game. They urgently need to hold a meeting before they loose the majority of their customers

Corpier

Recent wrote: »

Corpier wrote: »

akredon_ESO wrote: »

dude you summed up the Exact reason why i havnt been playing. I have damn whip lash from this last patch to this patch. i feel like ZOS is doing this



ZOS PATCH A: CHANGE SKILLS THAT WERE USELESS/NOT USED BUFF THEM 10000%

*SPONGE BOB VOICE* One Patch Later.....

ZOS: OH NO WE CAN HAVE DOTS DO THAT MUCH DAMAGE WE MUST NERF THEM! *slaps roof of patch* this bad boy can fit so many nerfs.



I do not like calling out the devs because they are the devs, If i wanted a job a ZOS then i would go apply for one. However what i do want is to play a game were the game feels solid, and right now this is not feeling solid to me which is why i am not playing. Maybe patch after this one we will see were we are at.

Thanks man, hopefully we can play together again "One Patch Later".

The devs are breaking the game. They urgently need to hold a meeting before they loose the majority of their customers

The sad thing is, I don't think they care about losing customers. They care more about attracting and burning through players who will quickly leave than keeping those who have been playing long term.

MehrunesFlagon

Lady_Sleepless wrote: »

Shaking the meta up every year is fine, but every main patch is exhausting.

Yeah it is,but this dumping it out,stepping on it and having to put i back together.

Hapexamendios

I honestly don’t care who’s really driving the change, it’s just too much too often.

jcm2606

Corpier wrote: »

Recent wrote: »

Corpier wrote: »

akredon_ESO wrote: »

dude you summed up the Exact reason why i havnt been playing. I have damn whip lash from this last patch to this patch. i feel like ZOS is doing this



ZOS PATCH A: CHANGE SKILLS THAT WERE USELESS/NOT USED BUFF THEM 10000%

*SPONGE BOB VOICE* One Patch Later.....

ZOS: OH NO WE CAN HAVE DOTS DO THAT MUCH DAMAGE WE MUST NERF THEM! *slaps roof of patch* this bad boy can fit so many nerfs.



I do not like calling out the devs because they are the devs, If i wanted a job a ZOS then i would go apply for one. However what i do want is to play a game were the game feels solid, and right now this is not feeling solid to me which is why i am not playing. Maybe patch after this one we will see were we are at.

Thanks man, hopefully we can play together again "One Patch Later".

The devs are breaking the game. They urgently need to hold a meeting before they loose the majority of their customers

The sad thing is, I don't think they care about losing customers. They care more about attracting and burning through players who will quickly leave than keeping those who have been playing long term.

It's exactly this. They don't care about trying to keep players for years on end, and building a healthy community that will always stick with the game and support their work. They care about trying to bring new players in that might only play for 3 months then quit, while also spending an arm and a leg either in playing the game, buying the latest expansion, or buying the latest shiny in the store.

SydneyGrey

I decided this week that trying to progress is almost pointless.
Might as well just make gameplay 100% roleplay-based, because every time you get your character feeling strong, he'll just be nerfed and everything changed.
Yeah, I know that it's something that happens in MMOs, but it shouldn't happen this OFTEN and the changes shouldn't be this severe.

Runkorko

they should stop with this general changes every months.

Jhalin

Corpier wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

it's more, most of us are tired of the knee-jerk reaction ZoS has when its precious PvP minority cries about something being too OP.

It's kinda funny.
If you actually listen to what the devs are saying in this video, it almost sounds like it's the end game "you must use these sets or you're doing it wrong" meta chasers driving these changes.

Listen to what they are saying in this video before you react to this post.

https://youtu.be/LXg7S0WxAMQ

Funny, they also say the best way to give feedback is actually posting on the forum.

Well, I suppose that ends the "PvP is driving all of the changes" debate.

The opinion of one guy making videos is hardly credible enough the end that debate. As for the devs quoted in the video, they talk about damage in a general sense. Never do they specifically mention whether they are talking about damage done to players or npcs, which are completely different as players have 20-40k health and boss npcs have millions.

Again, this is an issue that isn't about pvp or pve. Please stop trying to blame one group or the other, both sides are very vocal on the foruims, both cry for nerfs and buffs. Some players may cry for changes, but it on ZOS to implement them in reasonable ways. This is on ZOS for making too many drastic changes too often.

The combat lead doesn't do dungeons, he's unqualified to be making any changes, to put it nicely.

MajBludd

I dont mind change, but not every dlc. I could deal with some tweaks, but major changes should come with the chapters, imo.

xeNNNNN

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

it's more, most of us are tired of the knee-jerk reaction ZoS has when its precious PvP minority cries about something being too OP. Adjusting it so it's slightly less overwhelming in PvP? Sure, i can live with that.

Undercutting the new meta's damage by about 40% is a little more than a *slight* adjustment. Most of us are tired of this trend where the meta has a massive shift with each major patch. Sorcerers in particular are rather pissed because we literally just had a massive upheaval to our meta and had to rebuild the character almost from scratch and not even 3-4 months later we get another upheaval that will force another meta shift that requires players to rebuild the character from the ground up once more.

It would be different if they made small changes throughout the year that slowly shifted the meta into something new, that way players had time to adjust and learn the new skills and rotations as well as get the new BiS gear, enchants, food, etc, but as it stands we are constantly living in fear that the next patch will drop the axe on our current build and destroy any semblance of viability.

So pardon me if i tend to get rather angry with ZoS each time they make massive sweeping changes with every. single. patch.

that isn't the fault of the PvPers that is the fault of ZoS bringing a sledge hammer to a kitchen knife fight. Seriously, the complaints are justified and im sure its okay for you in your little PvE bubble but those of us who do enjoy PvP also get dealt terrible hands because changes you encourage in PvE so this is by no means a 1 way street. Remember the morrowind patch? That wasn't just PvP infinite sustain, that was people clearly raids constantly with stupidly high scores because they had almost no sustain issues. ever.

Dottzgaming

Lady_Sleepless wrote: »

Shaking the meta up every year is fine, but every main patch is exhausting.

This.

People are mad because they're tired of the fact that 2019 has seen 3 distinct meta changes from June to October when Dragonhold will be released. Vet players are getting burnt out having to constantly re-adjust themselves in order to stay competitive, and newer or intermediate players who are trying to keep up are struggling because by the time they finally manage to get all their gear together, it becomes totally useless shortly after.

Agenericname

Corpier wrote: »

Agenericname wrote: »

Kel wrote: »

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

it's more, most of us are tired of the knee-jerk reaction ZoS has when its precious PvP minority cries about something being too OP.

It's kinda funny.
If you actually listen to what the devs are saying in this video, it almost sounds like it's the end game "you must use these sets or you're doing it wrong" meta chasers driving these changes.

Listen to what they are saying in this video before you react to this post.

https://youtu.be/LXg7S0WxAMQ

Funny, they also say the best way to give feedback is actually posting on the forum.

Well, I suppose that ends the "PvP is driving all of the changes" debate.

The opinion of one guy making videos is hardly credible enough the end that debate. As for the devs quoted in the video, they talk about damage in a general sense. Never do they specifically mention whether they are talking about damage done to players or npcs, which are completely different as players have 20-40k health and boss npcs have millions.

Again, this is an issue that isn't about pvp or pve. Please stop trying to blame one group or the other, both sides are very vocal on the foruims, both cry for nerfs and buffs. Some players may cry for changes, but it on ZOS to implement them in reasonable ways. This is on ZOS for making too many drastic changes too often.

The opinion of the guy making the video is irrelevant, and to be honest, I didn't listen to it and no idea what it is. Somewhere around 3:24 the Associate Combat Developer says why they made the changes. They address why they're making the changes.

My argument as always been that it isn't purely PvP driving the changes. In a strange way it sounds like we agree on that.

sionIV

I used to build a character concept before I created my character. I figured out a background story for him/her, I had an idea of which sets I wanted to use and what type of build I would run on him/her. Most of my characters don't play like they used to, and I don't feel like creating new ones anymore.

RoyalPink06

Corpier wrote: »

Quite a few players I know don't dislike the patch notes simply because of specific changes, they are frustrated with game play altering changes occurring so often that changes appear as flippant as they are frequent.

I realize it is an MMO developers prerogative to keep people farming/grinding/changing. The chase of new gear sets or buffed old sets, the leveling of the new OP class, the mastery of the new rotation or combo. These are all valid ways of artificially increasing the lifespan of a game as ways to keep people playing. Its important to "shake the snowglobe" or "wash away the sandcastles" to change things at certain points in an MMO's life. It can prevent stagnation and burnout, combat growing powercreep, and can keep the game feeling fresh.

However, this should not happen so frequently that players cannot progress or don't even try for fear that all progress will soon be pointless. If changes occur before players even finish adapting to previous changes, such as if a set gets nerfed before players can finish collecting it, if content becomes more difficult when players struggled previously, or achievements become impossible to complete then players will become frustrated.

It isn't good when progression towards something is uncertain and if players question if its even worth starting on something because it might be made pointless in 3 months, potentially before they finish what they started. People don't want to have to relearn the game or struggle to regain what they already had so often. Better efforts need to be made to have consistency between patches so that players feel a culmination of skill and knowledge over time as the game slowly morphs rather than it feeling like a new game every patch.

Many players are getting sick of knee-jerk, 180 degree changes every patch. Its become a common pattern that one patch somethings gets overnerfed or overbuffed and the next patch the opposite happens as a reaction. There never seems to be subtle well thought out changes. Nothing is ever adjusted by 2% and left to be re-evaluated after testing. Its always "this ability is getting its damage cut in half" or "this type of ability are being buffed by 33%."

The last couple patches are a great example:
People say aoe dots shouldn't hit as hard as single target abilities? Nerf aoe dots and buff single target dots!
People say they don't like the single target dot meta with no spammables? Make single target dots weaker than they were originally! Nerf aoe dots too since they have to be proportionally weaker! Also nerf sustain because heavy attacks aren't dots!

Agree 100%. I gave up on this game because I was finally starting to get good on my favourite character, and then Scalebreaker (or possibly the patch before it, I forget) changed virtually everything and it felt like I was starting over. I don’t have the energy or the resources for that anymore. People don’t want to start from scratch after every damn patch.

dotme

Jaraal wrote: »

They think they are "killing it"....... who are we to change their mindset?

They are killing it. I've seen dozens of friends stop playing over the past few months, the game for me this year is feeling less enjoyable and more like a chore. The changes each patch brings are jarring, not gentle.

If people aren't having a good time, they stop playing (and paying). That, above all else, should be the main concern of any game studio if they want to keep that recurring revenue stream strong and healthy.