We need better universal source of Major Sorcery in PvP.

InvictusApollo

In U23 Structured Entropy finally became something actually usefull. It healed, it did damage and most importantly it provided use with Major Sorcery.
Now it got nerfed and the only universal source of Major Sorcery is Degeneration. When comparing it to a Netch, Molten Weapons or Surge it comes out pretty pale.
Not only we have to cast it in combat but we also get much, much lower duration.
The only two other options are Rattlecage set and a potion.
Rattlecage set is a heavy offensive set which means that we have to run all heavy armor if we wan't a protective set other than an unreliable monster proc set.
And spell power potion is not only expensive but also prevents us from using CC immunity potions and detect potions.
As you can see we have no other viable alternatives than Degeneration.

I'd love to see one of the following buffs to it:
1. Increase in duration of Major Sorcery after casting Degeneration to 36seconds. There is no need to increase dot duration.
2. Strip the dot and make it a self buff that gives Major Sorcery for at least 26 seconds.

Another idea is to give us a new set like Rattlecage but light armor.

wheem_ESO

Entropy needs to be comparable to Rally/Forward Momentum, and with the first PTS patch it most certainly isn't. Like I said in another thread, there comes a point where damage being attached to a skill is nothing but wasted "budget" - it isn't enough to actually matter, and prevents the skill from receiving other utility improvements. Just imagine if Rally's heal was removed entirely, and it instead got a DOT that would tick for somewhere around 500 damage every 2 seconds on enemy players in no-CP...would anyone actually call that a fair trade?

It either needs to keep a respectable level of damage, or have the damage removed and more utility added, being made into a buff that doesn't require a target. I guess the second option would probably warrant a name-change, but the current PTS version of the skill just simply isn't good enough...yet it's the only realistic option for some classes.

technohic

The problem with them normalizing to a budget is they try to squeeze too many things into too simple of a term.

Entropy was a dot, when it really was a buff/utility so it was overperforming having both, but then they took away both half its damage and half its utility. Also, all DOTs are not equal. Ranged DOTs should not equal melee DOTs.

They cut too far to the bone here

p00tx

I agree that Entropy needs to be adjusted, but to respond to your Rattlecage comment:

You can run Rattlecage jewels and 2 pieces on the body, then run your monster set in light (you'd lose 1/3 of your undaunted passive though), or run it on weapons and jewels, but be unable to run an arena weapon without losing the Major Sorcery on your back bar.

You have options. Just not great ones.

wheem_ESO

technohic wrote: »

The problem with them normalizing to a budget is they try to squeeze too many things into too simple of a term.

Entropy was a dot, when it really was a buff/utility so it was overperforming having both, but then they took away both half its damage and half its utility. Also, all DOTs are not equal. Ranged DOTs should not equal melee DOTs.

They cut too far to the bone here

I have seen Rending Slashes do literally double the damage of Entropy on live. And that's true in cases where both players are on damage-heavy builds. Venomous Claw and the WW bleed have also done significantly more damage than Entropy, though obviously you don't usually see many WW in BGs these days.

Given the realistic damage numbers I've seen on live, I don't think Entropy is particularly overpowered when compared to Forward Momentum or Rally. It has more damage, obviously, but less utility and can't be pre-buffed. With this first PTS patch it lost both damage and utility, which leaves it in a really bad state and too weak on both fronts. ZOS either needs to get rid of the damage entirely, and make it a self buff that's comparable to Rally and Forward Momentum, or they need to keep the damage respectable and leave the utility inferior to those Stam skills.

InvictusApollo

p00tx wrote: »

I agree that Entropy needs to be adjusted, but to respond to your Rattlecage comment:

You can run Rattlecage jewels and 2 pieces on the body, then run your monster set in light (you'd lose 1/3 of your undaunted passive though), or run it on weapons and jewels, but be unable to run an arena weapon without losing the Major Sorcery on your back bar.

You have options. Just not great ones.

You didn't get the meaning. Most protective sets like Steadfast Hero are heavy sets. We can't take Rattlecage and one of those sets without getting at least 5 pieces of heavy armor on. I personally run two defensive sets and one offensive set in light.

p00tx

InvictusApollo wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

I agree that Entropy needs to be adjusted, but to respond to your Rattlecage comment:

You can run Rattlecage jewels and 2 pieces on the body, then run your monster set in light (you'd lose 1/3 of your undaunted passive though), or run it on weapons and jewels, but be unable to run an arena weapon without losing the Major Sorcery on your back bar.

You have options. Just not great ones.

You didn't get the meaning. Most protective sets like Steadfast Hero are heavy sets. We can't take Rattlecage and one of those sets without getting at least 5 pieces of heavy armor on. I personally run two defensive sets and one offensive set in light.

Ahhhh. I see how. There are light defensive sets though, like armor Master, swift, and Cyrodil's Light. I know they're not as beefy as SH, but they work if you want to keep the light armor passives.

InvictusApollo

p00tx wrote: »

InvictusApollo wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

I agree that Entropy needs to be adjusted, but to respond to your Rattlecage comment:

You can run Rattlecage jewels and 2 pieces on the body, then run your monster set in light (you'd lose 1/3 of your undaunted passive though), or run it on weapons and jewels, but be unable to run an arena weapon without losing the Major Sorcery on your back bar.

You have options. Just not great ones.

You didn't get the meaning. Most protective sets like Steadfast Hero are heavy sets. We can't take Rattlecage and one of those sets without getting at least 5 pieces of heavy armor on. I personally run two defensive sets and one offensive set in light.

Ahhhh. I see how. There are light defensive sets though, like armor Master, swift, and Cyrodil's Light. I know they're not as beefy as SH, but they work if you want to keep the light armor passives.

Yeah I know. I know them all. I've already theorycrafted a new build for Magplar. I tried all options with Rattlecage and the best one is with 5 heavy armor pieces.

ChunkyCat

Poor MagPlar.

InvictusApollo

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Poor MagPlar.

It's not only Magplar. It is also Magblade or at least the ranged version.

NyassaV

PvE Spell Power Pots. I've been using them in PvP forever and so has @NightbladeMechanics

Iskiab

NyassaV wrote: »

PvE Spell Power Pots. I've been using them in PvP forever and so has @NightbladeMechanics

So have I, but with the potion changes I feel like it’s a bigger downside than before.

You can make some crazy pots these days; 5k all resists and health, major vitality+minor protection+minor heroism. Like that 2nd pot is really good, but only some classes can use it.

Major intellect you can only get from pots so will always be used, even then there’s speed, immovable, etc... that you’re giving up.

Major_Lag

IMO at this point, worrying about such details is like turning up the air conditioning when the whole house is on fire.

With damage greatly nerfed across the board, and the loss of many viable CCs - yet healing remaining unchanged - this will make fights even longer and drawn out.

OTOH, if the changes go Live as they are currently - and I bet they will, given ZOS' track record in the matter - this will be a good opportunity to dust off my largescale healer build and give it another spin in Cyro

Drdeath20

Should be

Degeneration is a DoT and grants major sorcery
Structured entropy is a HoT (in some sort of mechanic) and grants major sorcery

Anyone dissagree?

HowlKimchi

Magblade here. Been using AP magicka pots for a couple of years now since i have the magelight on my front bar. I chug them on cooldown and it’s great. I still question the change to entropy this patch though.

sentientomega

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Should be

Degeneration is a DoT and grants major sorcery
Structured entropy is a HoT (in some sort of mechanic) and grants major sorcery

Anyone dissagree?

I like that idea.

So long as the HoT is a tad more powerful than it currently is.

Nordic__Knights

InvictusApollo wrote: »

In U23 Structured Entropy finally became something actually usefull. It healed, it did damage and most importantly it provided use with Major Sorcery.
Now it got nerfed and the only universal source of Major Sorcery is Degeneration. When comparing it to a Netch, Molten Weapons or Surge it comes out pretty pale.
Not only we have to cast it in combat but we also get much, much lower duration.
The only two other options are Rattlecage set and a potion.
Rattlecage set is a heavy offensive set which means that we have to run all heavy armor if we wan't a protective set other than an unreliable monster proc set.
And spell power potion is not only expensive but also prevents us from using CC immunity potions and detect potions.
As you can see we have no other viable alternatives than Degeneration.

I'd love to see one of the following buffs to it:
1. Increase in duration of Major Sorcery after casting Degeneration to 36seconds. There is no need to increase dot duration.
2. Strip the dot and make it a self buff that gives Major Sorcery for at least 26 seconds.

Another idea is to give us a new set like Rattlecage but light armor.

I run jewelry and weapons no heavy armor whatsoever works great

blnchk

Drdeath20 wrote: »

Should be

Degeneration is a DoT and grants major sorcery
Structured entropy is a HoT (in some sort of mechanic) and grants major sorcery

Anyone dissagree?

In this case, I'd prefer for Degeneration to help with sustain instead of dealing damage. Or, alternatively, for Structured Entropy to help with sustain while also functioning as a damage-less HoT. Basically, I like sustain.

Mayrael

It looks like another very bad patch for magicka. They nerf our only outside of class source of major sorcery. They nerf all dots but stamina has way better burst options so they won't suffer at all while magicka will be back to trying to proc once a while frags/focus/whip.

ThePedge

This does annoy me.

Sorc gets Crit Surge, passive heals and Major Brutality

Warden gets netch, free with Stam Regen and Major Brutality. Even before the self-purge joke that is in PTS.

DK gets a rather lackluster skill but does improve HA damage and lasts a decent time.

Templar gets nothing

Necro gets nothing

NB requires you to hit them with a bad AoE, or not in the new PTS. But it being tied to that skill still doesn't seem right imo.

DW source is strange and have still not seen anyone use that skill when you can use 2H with Rally.

So all Templars, Necros and NB are shoe-horned into using 2H to get a reliable source of Major Brutality.

I don't want carbon copies of the same skill with different effects, but the buffs should be part of a classes kit somewhere.

I'll test NB Power Extract on PTS soon, but will I run it over Rally? Unlikely, it's one of my only 2 sources of healing. 3 if you count bow proc but that gets dodged or I'm too far away.

InvictusApollo

ChunkyCat wrote: »

Poor MagPlar.

It's not only Magplar. It is also Magblade or at least the ranged version.

Major_Lag wrote: »

IMO at this point, worrying about such details is like turning up the air conditioning when the whole house is on fire.

With damage greatly nerfed across the board, and the loss of many viable CCs - yet healing remaining unchanged - this will make fights even longer and drawn out.

OTOH, if the changes go Live as they are currently - and I bet they will, given ZOS' track record in the matter - this will be a good opportunity to dust off my largescale healer build and give it another spin in Cyro

Only dot damage got nerfed and that was damage mostly used by noobs. There was literally one BiS DOT build that could rival burst damage. Every even mediocre PvPer was using burst damage. So as you can see, there will be around the same amount of damage inflicted. The only difference will be that zergs won't be able to LA tankier players to death like they could in dot meta.

Sanguinor2

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Only dot damage got nerfed and that was damage mostly used by noobs. There was literally one BiS DOT build that could rival burst damage. Every even mediocre PvPer was using burst damage. So as you can see, there will be around the same amount of damage inflicted. The only difference will be that zergs won't be able to LA tankier players to death like they could in dot meta.

But every mediocre Player also used dots for pressure (or delayed burst abilities which some classes dont have) and no mediocre Player will die to burst alone as Long as they know somewhat how to build their character.
(Mostly bg perspective here since if you run People over with 20+people you dont Need anything)

InvictusApollo

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Only dot damage got nerfed and that was damage mostly used by noobs. There was literally one BiS DOT build that could rival burst damage. Every even mediocre PvPer was using burst damage. So as you can see, there will be around the same amount of damage inflicted. The only difference will be that zergs won't be able to LA tankier players to death like they could in dot meta.

But every mediocre Player also used dots for pressure (or delayed burst abilities which some classes dont have) and no mediocre Player will die to burst alone as Long as they know somewhat how to build their character.
(Mostly bg perspective here since if you run People over with 20+people you dont Need anything)

They will switch back to what was before and damage will stay the same as it was before.

Vapirko

You can run rattle cage jewelry and weapons or two heavy pieces if you want. Although idk why they *** with entropy aside from the dot.

Iskiab

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Only dot damage got nerfed and that was damage mostly used by noobs. There was literally one BiS DOT build that could rival burst damage. Every even mediocre PvPer was using burst damage. So as you can see, there will be around the same amount of damage inflicted. The only difference will be that zergs won't be able to LA tankier players to death like they could in dot meta.

But every mediocre Player also used dots for pressure (or delayed burst abilities which some classes dont have) and no mediocre Player will die to burst alone as Long as they know somewhat how to build their character.
(Mostly bg perspective here since if you run People over with 20+people you dont Need anything)

On live? No you don’t. All you need is dizzy swing and to keep your buffs and heals up.

Major_Lag

InvictusApollo wrote: »

Only dot damage got nerfed and that was damage mostly used by noobs.

Except that Entropy is a DoT, and on Live it's a very useful DoT - it gives Major Sorcery, provides a bit of extra healing or sustain, and some added pressure that can't be mitigated by LoS (once applied).

But the PTS version of Entropy is not even worth slotting anymore, not in PvP at least, unless you are REALLY desperate for that Major Sorcery.

InvictusApollo wrote: »

The only difference will be that zergs won't be able to LA tankier players to death like they could in dot meta.

I wouldn't worry about the zergs, I'd think they will manage just fine, no matter the meta.
If zerging doesn't solve your problem - bring a bigger zerg, it never fails

Stibbons

Structured Entropy has been revented back to old poor self. It really needs some LOVE.

chrightt

Major sorcery on destruction staff would be nice because I don’t want the only off-class major sorcery to come from just mage guild. Give Pulsar major sorcery and revive the dead skill!

Animus-ESO

InvictusApollo wrote: »

In U23 Structured Entropy finally became something actually usefull. It healed, it did damage and most importantly it provided use with Major Sorcery.
Now it got nerfed and the only universal source of Major Sorcery is Degeneration. When comparing it to a Netch, Molten Weapons or Surge it comes out pretty pale.
Not only we have to cast it in combat but we also get much, much lower duration.
The only two other options are Rattlecage set and a potion.
Rattlecage set is a heavy offensive set which means that we have to run all heavy armor if we wan't a protective set other than an unreliable monster proc set.
And spell power potion is not only expensive but also prevents us from using CC immunity potions and detect potions.
As you can see we have no other viable alternatives than Degeneration.

I'd love to see one of the following buffs to it:
1. Increase in duration of Major Sorcery after casting Degeneration to 36seconds. There is no need to increase dot duration.
2. Strip the dot and make it a self buff that gives Major Sorcery for at least 26 seconds.

Another idea is to give us a new set like Rattlecage but light armor.

just run rattlecage jewlry and weapons and wear light armor set on the body. duh

InvictusApollo

Thrusts-His-Spear wrote: »

InvictusApollo wrote: »

In U23 Structured Entropy finally became something actually usefull. It healed, it did damage and most importantly it provided use with Major Sorcery.
Now it got nerfed and the only universal source of Major Sorcery is Degeneration. When comparing it to a Netch, Molten Weapons or Surge it comes out pretty pale.
Not only we have to cast it in combat but we also get much, much lower duration.
The only two other options are Rattlecage set and a potion.
Rattlecage set is a heavy offensive set which means that we have to run all heavy armor if we wan't a protective set other than an unreliable monster proc set.
And spell power potion is not only expensive but also prevents us from using CC immunity potions and detect potions.
As you can see we have no other viable alternatives than Degeneration.

I'd love to see one of the following buffs to it:
1. Increase in duration of Major Sorcery after casting Degeneration to 36seconds. There is no need to increase dot duration.
2. Strip the dot and make it a self buff that gives Major Sorcery for at least 26 seconds.

Another idea is to give us a new set like Rattlecage but light armor.

just run rattlecage jewlry and weapons and wear light armor set on the body. duh

Allright, that does it. You are the third person making the same stupid comment. What is so hard to uderstand in this sentence:
"Rattlecage set is a heavy offensive set which means that we have to run all heavy armor if we wan't a protective set other than an unreliable monster proc set."
If I run Rattlecage on jewelery and weapons that leaves me two slots for monster set and 5 for another set. And most protective 5sets are heavy.

Just READ, before you comment! It will save you from humiliation.