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Bow nerfs in PvP
Ragnaroek93
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Posting for a friend who has no access to the forums:
Draining Shot Change Has DESTROYED PvP Bow Builds
As a result of this change competitive bow builds have ceased to exist.
On stream Gilliam mentioned how Draining Shot had too "much power" as it allowed people to secure kills with the CC, but also heal up with the healing part of the skill.
But what has been kind of lost in the sidelines is the fact that the combination of a heal and a CC is downright NECESSARY for bow builds to survive in PvP.
Get hit by a Purifying Light, followed by a Toppling Charge (gap closer that also CCs you, doesn't that also fall in the line of things that do too much?), Crescent into Sweeps spam.
What do you do to survive as a bow build? You get that person out of your melee range and heal up. Except you can't do both anymore.
Hit them with a Magnum Shot & Vigor afterwards? Vigor is extremely weak on bow builds, which naturally have much lower weapon damage than melee builds and you NEED the burst heal in order to not get deleted by Purifying Light (which by the way got BUFFED in this patch).
Vigor alone is not enough to survive with on a bow build. Alone it's not enough to survive with on ANY build. You need a burst heal (or shield).
So, keep using Draining shot? Well, now you have people permanently stuck in your melee range and can't KITE people anymore by knocking them back, which is what bow builds are supposed to do. Kite.
You'll keep spamming that skill (around 7-8k tooltip heal in BiS bow gear, far from skills such as Honor the Dead or Twilight Matriarch) & you'll die/run out of resources regardless.
Same thing with getting hit by Leap from a DK (another gap closer+CC btw) or just generally trying to kite high damage melee oriented builds, you need the knockback.
And this is all 1v1s I'm talking about, surviving while outnumbered will be literally impossible if all you have is Vigor and you're taking damage from multiple sources.
This change hits bow builds more than anything, because melee builds have always had multiple other options to heal or CC people with and continue to do so, over half my builds do not even run bow on the back bar.
In fact, 60% snare from Draining Shot will be a buff for my melee stamblade, who did have multiple CCs, but didn't have a snare before.
But it ruins bow builds, which no one in their right mind would have considered "overpowered" to begin with.
So, unless you want to make a previously fun and enjoyable playstyle non-existent start thinking of some changes ZOS. Here's a few ideas from someone who actually plays a bow build (which none of you clearly do):
Draining Shot does too much? Start thinking about why bow builds do too little & require it to function. Having a burst heal outside of 2H skill line would be a good start, how about moving that Rally to Fighters Guild instead?
Alternatively, add healing to another bow skill. Maybe add a burst heal to Venom Arrow, which no one uses?
You could also add more ranged knockbacks to the game so people can keep using Draining Shot for the burst heal. You know, for other classes than Templar (which you keep buffing patch after patch) who might want to play a bow build as well.
Third option would be to change one of the bow passives (maybe that Accuracy passive which gives Crit, a stat not so useful for PvP) to provide bow builds a heal every X seconds when they CC someone.
It's not a matter of not having skill slots for another heal or a knockback, it's a matter of not having a single good option for that outside 2H*.
*2H can't be even off barred on a good bow build because you'll never be in weave range and even if you were you'd drop Hawk Eye stacks while on that bar, which are important for damage. On many builds you also drop the possibility of running Ballista on the off bar, which is necessary to kill tankier targets, and things such as Asylum Bow-Blackrose Bow gear synergy, or Master's Bow back bar for more damage.
Point is, melee off bar on a bow build not only feels awful, it IS awful from theorycrafting PoV.
The only bow builds that will exist next patch are people using Magnum Shot, zerging others with a healbot next to them (because they can't survive otherwise) and gankers whom you'll never see participate in a fair 1v1. Doesn't sound like a healthy change to me.
As always, thanks for reading - hopefully something will come of this because I don't think ZOS has a full idea on how gutting Draining Shot will affect actual bow builds.
Decimus
Edited by Ragnaroek93 on September 17, 2019 12:49PM Draining Shot Change Has DESTROYED PvP Bow Builds
Scattershot:
Draining Shot (morph): This morph no longer knocks back targets hit, but instead reduces their movement speed by 60% for 3 seconds.
As a result of this change competitive bow builds have ceased to exist.
On stream Gilliam mentioned how Draining Shot had too "much power" as it allowed people to secure kills with the CC, but also heal up with the healing part of the skill.
But what has been kind of lost in the sidelines is the fact that the combination of a heal and a CC is downright NECESSARY for bow builds to survive in PvP.
Get hit by a Purifying Light, followed by a Toppling Charge (gap closer that also CCs you, doesn't that also fall in the line of things that do too much?), Crescent into Sweeps spam.
What do you do to survive as a bow build? You get that person out of your melee range and heal up. Except you can't do both anymore.
Hit them with a Magnum Shot & Vigor afterwards? Vigor is extremely weak on bow builds, which naturally have much lower weapon damage than melee builds and you NEED the burst heal in order to not get deleted by Purifying Light (which by the way got BUFFED in this patch).
Vigor alone is not enough to survive with on a bow build. Alone it's not enough to survive with on ANY build. You need a burst heal (or shield).
So, keep using Draining shot? Well, now you have people permanently stuck in your melee range and can't KITE people anymore by knocking them back, which is what bow builds are supposed to do. Kite.
You'll keep spamming that skill (around 7-8k tooltip heal in BiS bow gear, far from skills such as Honor the Dead or Twilight Matriarch) & you'll die/run out of resources regardless.
Same thing with getting hit by Leap from a DK (another gap closer+CC btw) or just generally trying to kite high damage melee oriented builds, you need the knockback.
And this is all 1v1s I'm talking about, surviving while outnumbered will be literally impossible if all you have is Vigor and you're taking damage from multiple sources.
This change hits bow builds more than anything, because melee builds have always had multiple other options to heal or CC people with and continue to do so, over half my builds do not even run bow on the back bar.
In fact, 60% snare from Draining Shot will be a buff for my melee stamblade, who did have multiple CCs, but didn't have a snare before.
But it ruins bow builds, which no one in their right mind would have considered "overpowered" to begin with.
So, unless you want to make a previously fun and enjoyable playstyle non-existent start thinking of some changes ZOS. Here's a few ideas from someone who actually plays a bow build (which none of you clearly do):
Draining Shot does too much? Start thinking about why bow builds do too little & require it to function. Having a burst heal outside of 2H skill line would be a good start, how about moving that Rally to Fighters Guild instead?
Alternatively, add healing to another bow skill. Maybe add a burst heal to Venom Arrow, which no one uses?
You could also add more ranged knockbacks to the game so people can keep using Draining Shot for the burst heal. You know, for other classes than Templar (which you keep buffing patch after patch) who might want to play a bow build as well.
Third option would be to change one of the bow passives (maybe that Accuracy passive which gives Crit, a stat not so useful for PvP) to provide bow builds a heal every X seconds when they CC someone.
It's not a matter of not having skill slots for another heal or a knockback, it's a matter of not having a single good option for that outside 2H*.
*2H can't be even off barred on a good bow build because you'll never be in weave range and even if you were you'd drop Hawk Eye stacks while on that bar, which are important for damage. On many builds you also drop the possibility of running Ballista on the off bar, which is necessary to kill tankier targets, and things such as Asylum Bow-Blackrose Bow gear synergy, or Master's Bow back bar for more damage.
Point is, melee off bar on a bow build not only feels awful, it IS awful from theorycrafting PoV.
The only bow builds that will exist next patch are people using Magnum Shot, zerging others with a healbot next to them (because they can't survive otherwise) and gankers whom you'll never see participate in a fair 1v1. Doesn't sound like a healthy change to me.
As always, thanks for reading - hopefully something will come of this because I don't think ZOS has a full idea on how gutting Draining Shot will affect actual bow builds.
Decimus
I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.
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Holycannoli✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »As always, thanks for reading - hopefully something will come of this because I don't think ZOS has a full idea on how gutting Draining Shot will affect actual bow builds.
Decimus[/i]
ZOS doesn't have a full idea on how anything affects anything apparently. Look at August patch and this PTS patch: DoTs buffed in August, DoTs nerfed even further than before August in PTS. They have no idea, no plan, no direction.
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Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Wait, are you telling me there is a disadvantage to using a bow/bow build just like if I use 2x destro on my mag builds, or go 2x two-hander or 2x dual wield on my stam builds in PvP?
I am shocked.2 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Omg you mean you won’t have a high damage, big burst heal with long range that send people flying back and is bugged to hell?
There were no competitive bow builds in Cyrodiil this skill was just a massive zerglings tool.2 -
Jimmy_The_Fixer✭✭✭✭✭Glass cannon bow/bow is a gimmick build that leaned too heavily into the overloaded defensive power of draining shot.
Bow mainbar will be fine without it.3 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Omg you mean you won’t have a high damage, big burst heal with long range that send people flying back and is bugged to hell?
There were no competitive bow builds in Cyrodiil this skill was just a massive zerglings tool.
Is being 35% weaker than regular spammable in current DoT meta on generally less damage heavy weapon considered high damage now?
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JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Omg you mean you won’t have a high damage, big burst heal with long range that send people flying back and is bugged to hell?
There were no competitive bow builds in Cyrodiil this skill was just a massive zerglings tool.
Have you tried crushing weapon Or silver shards? Hits nearly as hard as surprise attack. One also heals you and the other gives you weapon dmg
Plus scattershot and morphs had a range and dmg nerf on the live patchEdited by JobooAGS on September 17, 2019 1:06PM0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »Glass cannon bow/bow is a gimmick build that leaned too heavily into the overloaded defensive power of draining shot.
Bow mainbar will be fine without it.
If this patch goes live, I'll just swap to magnum shot which still ccs and deals more damage. I will also have to find a burst heal/an additional heal from another source or play more conseratively.0 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Omg you mean you won’t have a high damage, big burst heal with long range that send people flying back and is bugged to hell?
There were no competitive bow builds in Cyrodiil this skill was just a massive zerglings tool.
Posted for a friend and I don't agree with everything in his statement by 100% but I don't think that people who play medium armor with a bow need to justify using Draining Shot in the current meta.I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.0 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Poison injection too, they increased the cost and increased the dot dmg, but reduced the execute dmg. Thennow they decreased the dot dmg, but didnt revert anything else...so its pretty rip for that skill imo.
PC EU
PvP only4 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Omg you mean you won’t have a high damage, big burst heal with long range that send people flying back and is bugged to hell?
There were no competitive bow builds in Cyrodiil this skill was just a massive zerglings tool.
Have you tried crushing weapon Or silver shards? Hits nearly as hard as surprise attack. One also heals you and the other gives you weapon dmg
Plus scattershot and morphs had a range and dmg nerf on the live patch
Crushing weapons is garbage in PvP and melee range. Silver shards is also garbage.0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Omg you mean you won’t have a high damage, big burst heal with long range that send people flying back and is bugged to hell?
There were no competitive bow builds in Cyrodiil this skill was just a massive zerglings tool.
Have you tried crushing weapon Or silver shards? Hits nearly as hard as surprise attack. One also heals you and the other gives you weapon dmg
Plus scattershot and morphs had a range and dmg nerf on the live patch
Crushing weapons is garbage in PvP and melee range. Silver shards is also garbage.
crushing weapon is any range. It buffs your light attack and hits quite hard, just a couple hundred tooltip dmg less than surprise attack which hits really hard. You just need to l2 light attack weave. In case you havent noticed, silver shards got a damage buff and a cost reduction.0 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Omg you mean you won’t have a high damage, big burst heal with long range that send people flying back and is bugged to hell?
There were no competitive bow builds in Cyrodiil this skill was just a massive zerglings tool.
Have you tried crushing weapon Or silver shards? Hits nearly as hard as surprise attack. One also heals you and the other gives you weapon dmg
Plus scattershot and morphs had a range and dmg nerf on the live patch
Crushing weapons is garbage in PvP and melee range. Silver shards is also garbage.
crushing weapon is any range. It buffs your light attack and hits quite hard, just a couple hundred tooltip dmg less than surprise attack which hits really hard. You just need to l2 light attack weave. In case you havent noticed, silver shards got a damage buff and a cost reduction.
If that's true then what is the problem with the change? Tell those angry to just slot crushing!
Oh wait, we all know what the problem is: it can't be spammed like the bow ability can, doesn't have the stun, is tied to a light attack's damage, and enemies have a warning sign its coming + short buff time and the need to constantly reapply it. If anything, you're helping justify why draining needed the nerf by even bringing it up.0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Omg you mean you won’t have a high damage, big burst heal with long range that send people flying back and is bugged to hell?
There were no competitive bow builds in Cyrodiil this skill was just a massive zerglings tool.
Have you tried crushing weapon Or silver shards? Hits nearly as hard as surprise attack. One also heals you and the other gives you weapon dmg
Plus scattershot and morphs had a range and dmg nerf on the live patch
Crushing weapons is garbage in PvP and melee range. Silver shards is also garbage.
crushing weapon is any range. It buffs your light attack and hits quite hard, just a couple hundred tooltip dmg less than surprise attack which hits really hard. You just need to l2 light attack weave. In case you havent noticed, silver shards got a damage buff and a cost reduction.
If that's true then what is the problem with the change? Tell those angry to just slot crushing!
Oh wait, we all know what the problem is: it can't be spammed like the bow ability can, doesn't have the stun, is tied to a light attack's damage, and enemies have a warning sign its coming + short buff time and the need to constantly reapply it. If anything, you're helping justify why draining needed the nerf by even bringing it up.
If you can and/or already do light attack weave, the spammability isnt a problem In fact ALL skills are tied to a 1 second global cooldown meaning you cannot spam any skill more than once a second. snipe snares you and can be inturrpted.
Of course you have to reapply crushing weapon. It is a spammable just like you have to recast literally every other spammable to do damage.
If you are worried about the sound queue for crushing weapon, Im surprised you arent worried about the one for snipe. The mag version also has a sound queue and it works fine for them0 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Omg you mean you won’t have a high damage, big burst heal with long range that send people flying back and is bugged to hell?
There were no competitive bow builds in Cyrodiil this skill was just a massive zerglings tool.
Talk about uninformed. You're confusing your inability to accomplish something as fact for others. It was only a zergling tool if you used it.
On topic, all solid points in the OP. The initial range and damage nerf used the knock back as the reason. (A la flame clench)
Yet draining shot no longer having a knock back has no reason of being a short range, low damage and No use bow skill. The dev team seems to have very little understanding of how combat is played out.0 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Omg you mean you won’t have a high damage, big burst heal with long range that send people flying back and is bugged to hell?
There were no competitive bow builds in Cyrodiil this skill was just a massive zerglings tool.
Talk about uninformed. You're confusing your inability to accomplish something as fact for others. It was only a zergling tool if you used it.
On topic, all solid points in the OP. The initial range and damage nerf used the knock back as the reason. (A la flame clench)
Yet draining shot no longer having a knock back has no reason of being a short range, low damage and No use bow skill. The dev team seems to have very little understanding of how combat is played out.
So, when they make a change you don't like this is the reason? It can't be that other builds exist, other than yours, that might be able to use the skill in a way that is problematic and broken. It can't be that the skill heals too much on certain builds, and does more damage than the forum defenders would have you believe. It can't be that the stun+heal+damage can decide a fight, and that even someone running a mag build with healing CP and slightly hybrid would use that skill to get a reliable heal and stun. No, not that. No way.
Nope. It must always be the devs have no idea what they are doing...Yeah, that's it. The dev team is clueless. That's why my build is broken from a single change.
Get real.
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JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Omg you mean you won’t have a high damage, big burst heal with long range that send people flying back and is bugged to hell?
There were no competitive bow builds in Cyrodiil this skill was just a massive zerglings tool.
Have you tried crushing weapon Or silver shards? Hits nearly as hard as surprise attack. One also heals you and the other gives you weapon dmg
Plus scattershot and morphs had a range and dmg nerf on the live patch
Crushing weapons is garbage in PvP and melee range. Silver shards is also garbage.
crushing weapon is any range. It buffs your light attack and hits quite hard, just a couple hundred tooltip dmg less than surprise attack which hits really hard. You just need to l2 light attack weave. In case you havent noticed, silver shards got a damage buff and a cost reduction.
If that's true then what is the problem with the change? Tell those angry to just slot crushing!
Oh wait, we all know what the problem is: it can't be spammed like the bow ability can, doesn't have the stun, is tied to a light attack's damage, and enemies have a warning sign its coming + short buff time and the need to constantly reapply it. If anything, you're helping justify why draining needed the nerf by even bringing it up.
After rereading your reaponse I think you have me confused. I am not advocating for either a nerf or a buff on draining shot. I replyed to only say that bow builds that are legit will adapt1 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Omg you mean you won’t have a high damage, big burst heal with long range that send people flying back and is bugged to hell?
There were no competitive bow builds in Cyrodiil this skill was just a massive zerglings tool.
Have you tried crushing weapon Or silver shards? Hits nearly as hard as surprise attack. One also heals you and the other gives you weapon dmg
Plus scattershot and morphs had a range and dmg nerf on the live patch
Crushing weapons is garbage in PvP and melee range. Silver shards is also garbage.
crushing weapon is any range. It buffs your light attack and hits quite hard, just a couple hundred tooltip dmg less than surprise attack which hits really hard. You just need to l2 light attack weave. In case you havent noticed, silver shards got a damage buff and a cost reduction.
If that's true then what is the problem with the change? Tell those angry to just slot crushing!
Oh wait, we all know what the problem is: it can't be spammed like the bow ability can, doesn't have the stun, is tied to a light attack's damage, and enemies have a warning sign its coming + short buff time and the need to constantly reapply it. If anything, you're helping justify why draining needed the nerf by even bringing it up.
After rereading your reaponse I think you have me confused. I am not advocating for either a nerf or a buff on draining shot. I replyed to only say that bow builds that are legit will adapt
Yeah, but they won't want to After dizzy swing got changed, I would have been surprised to see the skill stay the same. ZOS saw the future with the changes 0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Omg you mean you won’t have a high damage, big burst heal with long range that send people flying back and is bugged to hell?
There were no competitive bow builds in Cyrodiil this skill was just a massive zerglings tool.
Have you tried crushing weapon Or silver shards? Hits nearly as hard as surprise attack. One also heals you and the other gives you weapon dmg
Plus scattershot and morphs had a range and dmg nerf on the live patch
Crushing weapons is garbage in PvP and melee range. Silver shards is also garbage.
crushing weapon is any range. It buffs your light attack and hits quite hard, just a couple hundred tooltip dmg less than surprise attack which hits really hard. You just need to l2 light attack weave. In case you havent noticed, silver shards got a damage buff and a cost reduction.
If that's true then what is the problem with the change? Tell those angry to just slot crushing!
Oh wait, we all know what the problem is: it can't be spammed like the bow ability can, doesn't have the stun, is tied to a light attack's damage, and enemies have a warning sign its coming + short buff time and the need to constantly reapply it. If anything, you're helping justify why draining needed the nerf by even bringing it up.
After rereading your reaponse I think you have me confused. I am not advocating for either a nerf or a buff on draining shot. I replyed to only say that bow builds that are legit will adapt
Yeah, but they won't want to After dizzy swing got changed, I would have been surprised to see the skill stay the same. ZOS saw the future with the changes
idk why dswing was changed, it takes skill to land it as it is easy to avoid/cancel it. Onslaught is more of an issue than dswing was, it so happens it comes after getting hit by a dswing0 -
Royalthought✭✭✭✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Omg you mean you won’t have a high damage, big burst heal with long range that send people flying back and is bugged to hell?
There were no competitive bow builds in Cyrodiil this skill was just a massive zerglings tool.
Talk about uninformed. You're confusing your inability to accomplish something as fact for others. It was only a zergling tool if you used it.
On topic, all solid points in the OP. The initial range and damage nerf used the knock back as the reason. (A la flame clench)
Yet draining shot no longer having a knock back has no reason of being a short range, low damage and No use bow skill. The dev team seems to have very little understanding of how combat is played out.
So, when they make a change you don't like this is the reason? It can't be that other builds exist, other than yours, that might be able to use the skill in a way that is problematic and broken. It can't be that the skill heals too much on certain builds, and does more damage than the forum defenders would have you believe. It can't be that the stun+heal+damage can decide a fight, and that even someone running a mag build with healing CP and slightly hybrid would use that skill to get a reliable heal and stun. No, not that. No way.
Nope. It must always be the devs have no idea what they are doing...Yeah, that's it. The dev team is clueless. That's why my build is broken from a single change.
Get real.
The fact that you look at this patch and are under the assumption that "a change" is the reason their decision making is out of touch illustrates how little authority you should speak with on the matter.
If you're struggling because your opponent is winning fights against you because of draining shot then it makes sense why you want ZoS to do the work for you.
You're rare. Like unicorns. You struggle against bow builds. Lol. YOU needed them nerfed. And have the audacity to critique someone else's build. Lol
Classic. No offense but I'm not taking you serious.0 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Royalthought wrote: »Royalthought wrote: »Omg you mean you won’t have a high damage, big burst heal with long range that send people flying back and is bugged to hell?
There were no competitive bow builds in Cyrodiil this skill was just a massive zerglings tool.
Talk about uninformed. You're confusing your inability to accomplish something as fact for others. It was only a zergling tool if you used it.
On topic, all solid points in the OP. The initial range and damage nerf used the knock back as the reason. (A la flame clench)
Yet draining shot no longer having a knock back has no reason of being a short range, low damage and No use bow skill. The dev team seems to have very little understanding of how combat is played out.
So, when they make a change you don't like this is the reason? It can't be that other builds exist, other than yours, that might be able to use the skill in a way that is problematic and broken. It can't be that the skill heals too much on certain builds, and does more damage than the forum defenders would have you believe. It can't be that the stun+heal+damage can decide a fight, and that even someone running a mag build with healing CP and slightly hybrid would use that skill to get a reliable heal and stun. No, not that. No way.
Nope. It must always be the devs have no idea what they are doing...Yeah, that's it. The dev team is clueless. That's why my build is broken from a single change.
Get real.
The fact that you look at this patch and are under the assumption that "a change" is the reason their decision making is out of touch illustrates how little authority you should speak with on the matter.
If you're struggling because your opponent is winning fights against you because of draining shot then it makes sense why you want ZoS to do the work for you.
You're rare. Like unicorns. You struggle against bow builds. Lol. YOU needed them nerfed. And have the audacity to critique someone else's build. Lol
Classic. No offense but I'm not taking you serious.
Care to prove any of what you said? 0
