Burst Damage Meta Incoming

Vapirko

DoTs got hit sooooo hard! This is wack. 62% off twin slashes! That’s it’s only function! It’s now going to do about 10-12k damage over 10 seconds before battle spirit and resists. We’re all gonna be standing around emoting lol. Too early to tell I know but this seems steep.

Kadoin

This patch is already a burst damage meta, where have you been...?

Vapirko

Kadoin wrote: »

This patch is already a burst damage meta, where have you been...?

In the DoT meta with everyone else, where have you been? But in all seriousness while the dots were a touch heavy with the introduction of soul trap and entropy damage, I think the balance between bursts and dots was pretty close and it was nice. This seems way over the top. Also odd how other single target dots got a 62% nerf while entropy and soul trap did 50%

NuarBlack

Kadoin wrote: »

This patch is already a burst damage meta, where have you been...?

Exactly. Nobody any good that could find their vigor or regen or any heal button was dying to dots. Burst was still king.

Alienoutlaw

burst has always been key, go in fast hit hard buff and roll dodge away, nothing has changed there

Vapirko

NuarBlack wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

This patch is already a burst damage meta, where have you been...?

Exactly. Nobody any good that could find their vigor or regen or any heal button was dying to dots. Burst was still king.

Not really. Burst has always been fairly integral to ESO PvP combat but thats different from it being a meta. Aside from a few really burst specific classes like Warden and also Stam Sorcs which just dont have much choice it has been a fairly good balance. Just a few DoTs were sneaking there way in there. As a Stamplar I could sneak in Soul Trap and the difference in pressure was highly tangible. But whatever, trying to explain the finer points of combat to most people in this game is futile. Let the nerfs roll in. Now that DoTs are dead direct damage is next patch and then the only way to kill people will be 10v1 and then FINALLY all of you will feel the game is fair and balanced.

NuarBlack

Vapirko wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

This patch is already a burst damage meta, where have you been...?

Exactly. Nobody any good that could find their vigor or regen or any heal button was dying to dots. Burst was still king.

Not really. Burst has always been fairly integral to ESO PvP combat but thats different from it being a meta. Aside from a few really burst specific classes like Warden and also Stam Sorcs which just dont have much choice it has been a fairly good balance. Just a few DoTs were sneaking there way in there. As a Stamplar I could sneak in Soul Trap and the difference in pressure was highly tangible. But whatever, trying to explain the finer points of combat to most people in this game is futile. Let the nerfs roll in. Now that DoTs are dead direct damage is next patch and then the only way to kill people will be 10v1 and then FINALLY all of you will feel the game is fair and balanced.

Stamsorc a burst class? From what skill might I ask? Dizzy and onslaught? Thats every stam right now. Hurricane is an attrition skill and streak was their CC. Outside that they used exchange and crit surge the rest were weapon and guild skills. This alone draws your game knowledge into question.

Yes burst is king. Onslaught + dizzy was the way more efficient meta even under the dot apocalypse. But excluding that templars were using jabs/sweeps + ult when pol went off, burst combo. Nightblade lands bow +ult, burst combo. Warden dizzy+Beatles for stam or spammable + Beatles for mag, burst combo. Magsorc curse + frags + wrath, burst combo.

Dk might of been the only class considered a dot class prior to scalebreaker but will now be even worse if the proposed nerfs go live. But even before scalebreaker embers was used for the heal more than the dot pressure and claw wasn't even used cause bleeds outperformed claw before the scale breaker buffs. Now dot pressure will be irrelevant in pvp and not worth the slot unless the utility is a must.

I do agree people won't be dying except to onslaught combos now and they probably will nerf direct damage soon cause that will be all that's left to cry about.

NuarBlack

And inb4 I'm not saying the benefits of dots wasn't intangible. That exactly what I'm saying is that they were finally tangible enough to slot. And all that was need was more counter play, make them have a dodgeable projectile. Add more cleansing abilities, etc. Then see before this knee jerk nerf.

This honestly only makes sense from a "making pve more challenging" standpoint than it making any sense at all on the pvp side.

Vapirko

NuarBlack wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

This patch is already a burst damage meta, where have you been...?

Exactly. Nobody any good that could find their vigor or regen or any heal button was dying to dots. Burst was still king.

Not really. Burst has always been fairly integral to ESO PvP combat but thats different from it being a meta. Aside from a few really burst specific classes like Warden and also Stam Sorcs which just dont have much choice it has been a fairly good balance. Just a few DoTs were sneaking there way in there. As a Stamplar I could sneak in Soul Trap and the difference in pressure was highly tangible. But whatever, trying to explain the finer points of combat to most people in this game is futile. Let the nerfs roll in. Now that DoTs are dead direct damage is next patch and then the only way to kill people will be 10v1 and then FINALLY all of you will feel the game is fair and balanced.

Stamsorc a burst class? From what skill might I ask? Dizzy and onslaught? Thats every stam right now. Hurricane is an attrition skill and streak was their CC. Outside that they used exchange and crit surge the rest were weapon and guild skills. This alone draws your game knowledge into question.

Yes burst is king. Onslaught + dizzy was the way more efficient meta even under the dot apocalypse. But excluding that templars were using jabs/sweeps + ult when pol went off, burst combo. Nightblade lands bow +ult, burst combo. Warden dizzy+Beatles for stam or spammable + Beatles for mag, burst combo. Magsorc curse + frags + wrath, burst combo.

Dk might of been the only class considered a dot class prior to scalebreaker but will now be even worse if the proposed nerfs go live. But even before scalebreaker embers was used for the heal more than the dot pressure and claw wasn't even used cause bleeds outperformed claw before the scale breaker buffs. Now dot pressure will be irrelevant in pvp and not worth the slot unless the utility is a must.

I do agree people won't be dying except to onslaught combos now and they probably will nerf direct damage soon cause that will be all that's left to cry about.

As I said, burst is integral but that doesn't mean its meta. But if the DoT nerfs go live as is, then burst will be the only real form of damage and then it will be a meta. Hence my thread title.

NuarBlack wrote: »

And inb4 I'm not saying the benefits of dots wasn't intangible. That exactly what I'm saying is that they were finally tangible enough to slot. And all that was need was more counter play, make them have a dodgeable projectile. Add more cleansing abilities, etc. Then see before this knee jerk nerf.

This honestly only makes sense from a "making pve more challenging" standpoint than it making any sense at all on the pvp side.

Dots have been worth slotting for a long time. Not sure what you're talking about as finally being worth it.

Iskiab

Kadoin wrote: »

This patch is already a burst damage meta, where have you been...?

Seriously, I was starting to wonder if I was in the twilight zone. Over half of all the damage I take in BGs is from dizzy swing. Dots rarely show up on my death recaps. I was starting to wonder if a lot of people who post on the forums even play the game.

Vapirko

Iskiab wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

This patch is already a burst damage meta, where have you been...?

Seriously, I was starting to wonder if I was in the twilight zone. Over half of all the damage I take in BGs is from dizzy swing. Dots rarely show up on my death recaps. I was starting to wonder if a lot of people who post on the forums even play the game.

If you were dying from dizzy swings that means you were getting farmed by good stam players lol.

technohic

If you fight against zergs, it definitely is a DOT meta and why people cry about templars spamming ER to negate all zerglings. Get into smaller scale and it's a lot of trying to avoid damage when someone gets an onslaught off, and avoid the necro ult.

Iskiab

Vapirko wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Kadoin wrote: »

This patch is already a burst damage meta, where have you been...?

Seriously, I was starting to wonder if I was in the twilight zone. Over half of all the damage I take in BGs is from dizzy swing. Dots rarely show up on my death recaps. I was starting to wonder if a lot of people who post on the forums even play the game.

If you were dying from dizzy swings that means you were getting farmed by good stam players lol.

No ***, I play in high MMR. Point still stands, there was no dot meta. With defense down why use an ability that does damage over 12 seconds when a burst combo can take someone down in 3.

NuarBlack

Vapirko wrote: »

Dots have been worth slotting for a long time. Not sure what you're talking about as finally being worth it.

Prior to scale breaker which ones besides bleeds and poison inject? Any others were for utility and not the damage or pressure. Embers was for the heal, entropy for those classes who didn't have major sorcery access, DK breath for major fracture, and some NB, and I mean some, ran cripple for the snare. Not for the damage.

Inb4 spamables buffed by thaum don't count.

Vapirko

NuarBlack wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Dots have been worth slotting for a long time. Not sure what you're talking about as finally being worth it.

Prior to scale breaker which ones besides bleeds and poison inject? Any others were for utility and not the damage or pressure. Embers was for the heal, entropy for those classes who didn't have major sorcery access, DK breath for major fracture, and some NB, and I mean some, ran cripple for the snare. Not for the damage.

Inb4 spamables buffed by thaum don't count.

Why dont bleeds and poison injection count most physical dots are bleeds so that is a bit biased to say they dont count? But for others, vamps bane, both morphs of searing strikes, various mag warden dots both single target and AoE, and Im sure im missing some. And also you say most were run for the utility not damage, but thats still worth slotting. Thats like when people say that the heal on Entropy is worthless but its not. Just because something isn't dealing or healing for a large tooltip doesn't mean its worthless or that its not worth slotting. Every little bit helps and wiser players than I have always said that the most effective builds in ESO arent necessarily about producing the largest tooltips on a few skills but about knowing how things stack up and all those little effectives that on their own mean nothing but when put together are very significant.

When you say dots were not worth slotting previously it makes me think that you really dont think too critically about this game and how it works. This is why we end up with such screwed up nerfs/buffs to things. People just look at the largest tooltips or look at a skill like entropy and think the heal is worthless and it was garbage before having a 24k dot. But that couldn't be further from the truth unless your idea of combat is pushing two buttons in every situation.

NuarBlack

Vapirko wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Dots have been worth slotting for a long time. Not sure what you're talking about as finally being worth it.

Prior to scale breaker which ones besides bleeds and poison inject? Any others were for utility and not the damage or pressure. Embers was for the heal, entropy for those classes who didn't have major sorcery access, DK breath for major fracture, and some NB, and I mean some, ran cripple for the snare. Not for the damage.

Inb4 spamables buffed by thaum don't count.

Why dont bleeds and poison injection count most physical dots are bleeds so that is a bit biased to say they dont count? But for others, vamps bane, both morphs of searing strikes, various mag warden dots both single target and AoE, and Im sure im missing some. And also you say most were run for the utility not damage, but thats still worth slotting. Thats like when people say that the heal on Entropy is worthless but its not. Just because something isn't dealing or healing for a large tooltip doesn't mean its worthless or that its not worth slotting. Every little bit helps and wiser players than I have always said that the most effective builds in ESO arent necessarily about producing the largest tooltips on a few skills but about knowing how things stack up and all those little effectives that on their own mean nothing but when put together are very significant.

When you say dots were not worth slotting previously it makes me think that you really dont think too critically about this game and how it works. This is why we end up with such screwed up nerfs/buffs to things. People just look at the largest tooltips or look at a skill like entropy and think the heal is worthless and it was garbage before having a 24k dot. But that couldn't be further from the truth unless your idea of combat is pushing two buttons in every situation.

Entropy was a less optimal option prior to scale breaker period. No class ran it that had decent access to another source. You can sit here and pontificate about critical thinking and this or that but at the end of the day no magsorc slotted entropy over surge prior to buff and the surge nerf. No magden did over betty. In most cases it was better to get major sorcery from a pot than run entropy. This was the case for most all dots. It is you that lacks critical thinking. It isn't that objectively dots were bad just that they were always less optimal than other options for your bar slots and globals.

Also I never saw vamp bane or venemous claw used significantly prior to scalebreaker. They were a waste of slot and globals. Vamp bane used to be a go to back when BSW was the go to templar set but that's been awhile. I already covered embers being for the heal. Now that heal might not even be worth it after the nerf. You are also muddling pve with pvp. Aoe and ST Dots have always played a big part in damage parses but with most pvp fights not even lasting the full duration of most dots they have never played that big of a role in pvp. AOE dots just get moved out of so you bringing them up is laughable. I say Just bleeds cause they bypassed resistance and poison inject for the execute factor so they actually mattered. Bleeds no longer do that and poison inject had its execute damage nerfed.

For example. I play lots of magden. Swarm never could be justified prior to scalebreaker in pvp. Now during scale breaker I swapped reach for it. If the nerfs go live swarm will be dropped for more defensive and healing skills because they offer more bang for my buck. A Double swing towards tanky meta. And many classes will do similar. They won't drop the nerfed dot for another damage skill cause there isn't another one worth slotting. Everyone already has their damage skills slotted. Templar might be the exception if this ridiculous full pen piercing javelin change goes through then spamming javelins starts to look appealing. But outside that everyone will go back to spammable + delayed burst skill+ ult. Any dots will have been forced onto their bars because of utility and be suboptimal to classes that gain that utility via another skill that doesn't need a global in combat.

Vapirko

NuarBlack wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

NuarBlack wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Dots have been worth slotting for a long time. Not sure what you're talking about as finally being worth it.

Prior to scale breaker which ones besides bleeds and poison inject? Any others were for utility and not the damage or pressure. Embers was for the heal, entropy for those classes who didn't have major sorcery access, DK breath for major fracture, and some NB, and I mean some, ran cripple for the snare. Not for the damage.

Inb4 spamables buffed by thaum don't count.

Why dont bleeds and poison injection count most physical dots are bleeds so that is a bit biased to say they dont count? But for others, vamps bane, both morphs of searing strikes, various mag warden dots both single target and AoE, and Im sure im missing some. And also you say most were run for the utility not damage, but thats still worth slotting. Thats like when people say that the heal on Entropy is worthless but its not. Just because something isn't dealing or healing for a large tooltip doesn't mean its worthless or that its not worth slotting. Every little bit helps and wiser players than I have always said that the most effective builds in ESO arent necessarily about producing the largest tooltips on a few skills but about knowing how things stack up and all those little effectives that on their own mean nothing but when put together are very significant.

When you say dots were not worth slotting previously it makes me think that you really dont think too critically about this game and how it works. This is why we end up with such screwed up nerfs/buffs to things. People just look at the largest tooltips or look at a skill like entropy and think the heal is worthless and it was garbage before having a 24k dot. But that couldn't be further from the truth unless your idea of combat is pushing two buttons in every situation.

Entropy was a less optimal option prior to scale breaker period. No class ran it that had decent access to another source. You can sit here and pontificate about critical thinking and this or that but at the end of the day no magsorc slotted entropy over surge prior to buff and the surge nerf. No magden did over betty. In most cases it was better to get major sorcery from a pot than run entropy. This was the case for most all dots. It is you that lacks critical thinking. It isn't that objectively dots were bad just that they were always less optimal than other options for your bar slots and globals.

Also I never saw vamp bane or venemous claw used significantly prior to scalebreaker. They were a waste of slot and globals. Vamp bane used to be a go to back when BSW was the go to templar set but that's been awhile. I already covered embers being for the heal. Now that heal might not even be worth it after the nerf. You are also muddling pve with pvp. Aoe and ST Dots have always played a big part in damage parses but with most pvp fights not even lasting the full duration of most dots they have never played that big of a role in pvp. AOE dots just get moved out of so you bringing them up is laughable. I say Just bleeds cause they bypassed resistance and poison inject for the execute factor so they actually mattered. Bleeds no longer do that and poison inject had its execute damage nerfed.

For example. I play lots of magden. Swarm never could be justified prior to scalebreaker in pvp. Now during scale breaker I swapped reach for it. If the nerfs go live swarm will be dropped for more defensive and healing skills because they offer more bang for my buck. A Double swing towards tanky meta. And many classes will do similar. They won't drop the nerfed dot for another damage skill cause there isn't another one worth slotting. Everyone already has their damage skills slotted. Templar might be the exception if this ridiculous full pen piercing javelin change goes through then spamming javelins starts to look appealing. But outside that everyone will go back to spammable + delayed burst skill+ ult. Any dots will have been forced onto their bars because of utility and be suboptimal to classes that gain that utility via another skill that doesn't need a global in combat.

Well I’m not saying that nerfs aren’t insane (see the OP) but we have to agree to disagree on some of the finer points. And anyway if you read my comments what I meant by burst damage meta is that there will literally be no other option however you previously viewed dots. Also dude, javelin tooltip is like 6-7k, I wouldn’t worry about it.

BaiterOfZergs

A lot random information in this thread but I just wanted to say dots have been useful for awhile, scalebreaker made them overturned. Before scalebreaker of course no one was meant to die to dots but they added pressure and taxed resources.

To be frank scalebreaker is a mix of both dots and burst, you don’t need burst to kill people this update and that’s the issue many people have with dots this patch. While if you have a combination of both people are going to be in for a treat.

And I will say in small scale it’s not the burst that kills me it’s the dots from several people pussyfooting around instead of engaging.

Vapirko

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

A lot random information in this thread but I just wanted to say dots have been useful for awhile, scalebreaker made them overturned. Before scalebreaker of course no one was meant to die to dots but they added pressure and taxed resources.

To be frank scalebreaker is a mix of both dots and burst, you don’t need burst to kill people this update and that’s the issue many people have with dots this patch. While if you have a combination of both people are going to be in for a treat.

And I will say in small scale it’s not the burst that kills me it’s the dots from several people pussyfooting around instead of engaging.

Thank you for summing up my ramblings into a few short sentences.

susmitds

While I hated DoTs as much as the next guy for this patch, I will say that is way way overkill.

Vapirko

susmitds wrote: »

While I hated DoTs as much as the next guy for this patch, I will say that is way way overkill.

Absolutely. We’ve been wrong before about changes but this is just massive nerfs and to a lot of skills that were not OP.

BaiterOfZergs

Vapirko wrote: »

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

A lot random information in this thread but I just wanted to say dots have been useful for awhile, scalebreaker made them overturned. Before scalebreaker of course no one was meant to die to dots but they added pressure and taxed resources.

To be frank scalebreaker is a mix of both dots and burst, you don’t need burst to kill people this update and that’s the issue many people have with dots this patch. While if you have a combination of both people are going to be in for a treat.

And I will say in small scale it’s not the burst that kills me it’s the dots from several people pussyfooting around instead of engaging.

Thank you for summing up my ramblings into a few short sentences.

No problem, I actually think the nerfs are missing the mark because there was nothing addressing healing.

cmvet

So my issue is that this is a blanket nerf. Skills that apply stam dots that were not buffed in scalebreker are getting nerfed as well. Skills that have remained unchanged for 5 years are now being blanket nerfed because people qq about new entropy and soul trap. This tells me that the devs really have no clue how to balance things in this game.

InvictusApollo

Vapirko wrote: »

DoTs got hit sooooo hard! This is wack. 62% off twin slashes! That’s it’s only function! It’s now going to do about 10-12k damage over 10 seconds before battle spirit and resists. We’re all gonna be standing around emoting lol. Too early to tell I know but this seems steep.

It's been allways burst damage meta for all good players. Dots were mostly used by noobs to bring down those better than them. DOTs meta was bad and most people hated it.

SneaK

I think it’s going to be the other way around. Building for burst without d swing stun is going to suck.

StamDK fossilize/dot builds are going to be a real pain to fight next patch.

thankyourat

I thought you wanted the DOTs to be nerfed

Vapirko

thankyourat wrote: »

I thought you wanted the DOTs to be nerfed

I said Entropy and maybe soul trap needed some adjustment. Don’t be thick.

FearlessOne_2014

Vapirko wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

I thought you wanted the DOTs to be nerfed

I said Entropy and maybe soul trap needed some adjustment. Don’t be thick.

So you only wanted to nerf magicka DoTs than some of the stamina DoTs was doing the same or more damage. Mhmm Oookkaay than.

As much as I don't take joy in the destruction of the three DoT classes in the game. I'm glad ZOS nerfed both magicka and stamina DoTs and not just Magicka DoTs.

Vapirko

FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

thankyourat wrote: »

I thought you wanted the DOTs to be nerfed

I said Entropy and maybe soul trap needed some adjustment. Don’t be thick.

So you only wanted to nerf magicka DoTs than some of the stamina DoTs was doing the same or more damage. Mhmm Oookkaay than.

As much as I don't take joy in the destruction of the three DoT classes in the game. I'm glad ZOS nerfed both magicka and stamina DoTs and not just Magicka DoTs.

Not all magicka dots just Entropy and soul trap due to Entropy being a utility skill with four other effects and soul trap because it was outclassing even some class dots and was a bit too easily accessible plus it split to all enemies and was ranged. Just way too easily applied. Don’t mix up my words to fit your own biased views. You won’t be happy until as you said, stamina can’t even use any of their abilities and you try to drag down people who actually are making valid arguments. People who have experience across multiple classes and specs unlike you. Anyway it’s all neither here nor there at this point.

Iskiab

I think the new meta in the coming patch will be MagWarden and MagTemplars in ranged kite builds. StamWarden, StamTemplars and StamDK melee specs.

I’m not sure how healers will fare, Templar and Warden will be good, I’m still looking at the other classes.

We’ll definitely be going into a speed meta, moreso then we are at the top end right now.

Ragnaroek93

Feels more like a no damage meta where everybody fights for 20 mins until someone gets lucky on the 50th ult combo.