Dizzying Swing + Onslaught Too OP= NO SKILLZ NEEDED...

Sandman929

I'm also curious if someone could point out the change in Templars specifically that made them so super OP in the last update.

PS: pointing to changes in non Templar skills isn't the same

Bluestin

In regards to "Living Dark should be looked at"

The point of contention from my end is more so this aspect I stated in one of my prior posts:

"Living Dark is always active for a duration once it has been cast; alternatively Talons must be cast each time the immobilization effect is desired."

Living dark has a duration of 4 seconds; enhanced by 2 seconds up to 6 total after class passives I believe. The biggest difference I was trying to state (As well as where my minor annoyance stems from) is Living Dark is active on the caster and will immobilize anyone attacking them with direct damage for 3 seconds every 0.5 seconds over a 6 second period. Talons is 4 seconds on anyone in the immediate area (6m Radius) only on cast.

Talons does not heal the caster upon taking direct damage, however it is also not limited to only activating from direct damage. There is also the fact that Living Dark works at what ever your opponent's range was when they hit you with direct damage which is why I felt the immobilize should be slightly adjusted downward.

EmEm_Oh

Nerfplars 2020.

sly007

LuxLunae wrote: »

So I decided to not use my Templar

Templar Circle+ Lord Warden...

and got on my other class...

I went in thinking I was Hot Stuff...

I was running a sword n board...with Non-Stealth cloak (stupid idea NEVER get the stupid healing cloak for pvp I was using it some 6 months ago or something when the heals were not nerfed.)

I went to go pull out my trusty hundings rage with Vicious Ophidian... Used some skill points for onslaught...

Since I can easy drop and get resources back via vicious ophidian and NB technique.. I will probably remove stam recov and start investing either into heavy armor or weapon damage...


I always wondered why NBs were all glass cannons.. I was already good at hiding with my crouch technique... the added cloak is even better!!!

I really love NB and the previous changes across the board because it made a complex pvp system that took skills and time in ESO and made me able to just

Bing, Bing, Stamina back, cloak, NEXT....


VO allows me to ignore all stamina recov requirements kinda like a DK with their green dragon blood.. and put it all into weapon damage... infused...

Okay, I'm not sure if this is a joke or serious. Please reference the knowledge base. Some of these statements tell me you know little about pvp and combat mechanics.

GallantGuardian

Bluestin wrote: »

In regards to "Living Dark should be looked at"

The point of contention from my end is more so this aspect I stated in one of my prior posts:

"Living Dark is always active for a duration once it has been cast; alternatively Talons must be cast each time the immobilization effect is desired."

Living dark has a duration of 4 seconds; enhanced by 2 seconds up to 6 total after class passives I believe. The biggest difference I was trying to state (As well as where my minor annoyance stems from) is Living Dark is active on the caster and will immobilize anyone attacking them with direct damage for 3 seconds every 0.5 seconds over a 6 second period. Talons is 4 seconds on anyone in the immediate area (6m Radius) only on cast.

Talons does not heal the caster upon taking direct damage, however it is also not limited to only activating from direct damage. There is also the fact that Living Dark works at what ever your opponent's range was when they hit you with direct damage which is why I felt the immobilize should be slightly adjusted downward.

I get you and it make sense ...and I can see how it can be annoying ...

For me I would rather see it reworked into a class tank ability so for me I’d change how it worked with still giving it a heal and an immobilize

I’m thinking of it again from a pve perspective

TequilaFire

RaveRaveRaveRave wrote: »

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

onslaught isnt broken bud its templar

Yup, Templar is super unfair advantage in PVP right now. Nearly everyone is being one. Worst I've seen in a while. Way more Plars than there used to be Pet Sorcs....it's very sad they all think they're GodPlars together. Enjoy it while it lasts I guess.

Every one hopping on Templar doesn't make the class OP.
Just a bunch of lemmings.

azjuwelz

I've run into a few issues with Templars when on my NB, but I figure it's more of a L2P issue since I'm still learning PVP anyways and NBs are typically squishy, thus more challenging. Plus other than the Inpen armor and some boosted health, I haven't really changed her setup that much.

My magwarden has had no issues whatsoever with Dizzying Swing (other than it's annoying to get back up when I miss the block), Onslaught, or Templars. Course she's tanky as hell and also a healer. I was thrilled that I got top score in BG the other day for the 1st time.

So yeah, not really seeing an overall issue.

max_only

Having access to cleanse is the only thing that makes Templar’s the top during this dot heavy cycle. That’s it.

RaveRaveRaveRave

Vapirko wrote: »

RaveRaveRaveRave wrote: »

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

onslaught isnt broken bud its templar

Yup, Templar is super unfair advantage in PVP right now. Nearly everyone is being one. Worst I've seen in a while. Way more Plars than there used to be Pet Sorcs....it's very sad they all think they're GodPlars together. Enjoy it while it lasts I guess.

I run into very few Stamplar so idk what you’re talking about. I think you’re bad and dying to the few good Stamplars again and again. Also Stamplar got no buffs to damage so how could they suddenly be OP?

I think you're bad AND oblivious. Have you played the game during this Imperial City Event? Have you been in the sewers/city? Every group is nearly ALL Plars (not necessarily Stam) with sword and board for the most part. Stop being an oblivious nerd and just reading buff notes. PLAY THE GAME and then come back to the forums. k

GallantGuardian

RaveRaveRaveRave wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

RaveRaveRaveRave wrote: »

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

onslaught isnt broken bud its templar

Yup, Templar is super unfair advantage in PVP right now. Nearly everyone is being one. Worst I've seen in a while. Way more Plars than there used to be Pet Sorcs....it's very sad they all think they're GodPlars together. Enjoy it while it lasts I guess.

I run into very few Stamplar so idk what you’re talking about. I think you’re bad and dying to the few good Stamplars again and again. Also Stamplar got no buffs to damage so how could they suddenly be OP?

I think you're bad AND oblivious. Have you played the game during this Imperial City Event? Have you been in the sewers/city? Every group is nearly ALL Plars (not necessarily Stam) with sword and board for the most part. Stop being an oblivious nerd and just reading buff notes. PLAY THE GAME and then come back to the forums. k

Are you going to explain how they are op? Do you know ?

Vapirko

RaveRaveRaveRave wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

RaveRaveRaveRave wrote: »

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

onslaught isnt broken bud its templar

Yup, Templar is super unfair advantage in PVP right now. Nearly everyone is being one. Worst I've seen in a while. Way more Plars than there used to be Pet Sorcs....it's very sad they all think they're GodPlars together. Enjoy it while it lasts I guess.

I run into very few Stamplar so idk what you’re talking about. I think you’re bad and dying to the few good Stamplars again and again. Also Stamplar got no buffs to damage so how could they suddenly be OP?

I think you're bad AND oblivious. Have you played the game during this Imperial City Event? Have you been in the sewers/city? Every group is nearly ALL Plars (not necessarily Stam) with sword and board for the most part. Stop being an oblivious nerd and just reading buff notes. PLAY THE GAME and then come back to the forums. k

Every day my friend. If you’re on PC/NA we can meet up for a quick fight, I’m def not the best but I’m also not at all bad. I also main Stamplar and play Magplar and several other classes and specs on rotation. I understand why you think Magplars are OP. But I would urge you to try playing one and you’ll see what happens. All of a sudden you’ll wonder why that OPness doesn’t work for you. Sure some permablock BoL spamming, dot using, Jesus beam wielding jerk in the middle of a Zerg is annoying, more so when there are three, but so can any class be that way. But when you post threads about class balance you need to first and foremost play that class in a variety is settings, then you need to play against that class as another spec and then you need to present some actual reasoning. Short these three things you can have any idea of what you’re talking about and even if you do manage to strike on some grain of truth, without a more complete explanation and some serious examples it just starts a rant thread which is no use to anyone.

Heimpai

RaveRaveRaveRave wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

RaveRaveRaveRave wrote: »

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

onslaught isnt broken bud its templar

Yup, Templar is super unfair advantage in PVP right now. Nearly everyone is being one. Worst I've seen in a while. Way more Plars than there used to be Pet Sorcs....it's very sad they all think they're GodPlars together. Enjoy it while it lasts I guess.

I run into very few Stamplar so idk what you’re talking about. I think you’re bad and dying to the few good Stamplars again and again. Also Stamplar got no buffs to damage so how could they suddenly be OP?

I think you're bad AND oblivious. Have you played the game during this Imperial City Event? Have you been in the sewers/city? Every group is nearly ALL Plars (not necessarily Stam) with sword and board for the most part. Stop being an oblivious nerd and just reading buff notes. PLAY THE GAME and then come back to the forums. k

Sword and board is usually a MAGplar

Neloth

Today I was playing my magnecro in IC, and met a stamsorc general in nobles district. He tried to 1vs1me with his dizzy+onslaught build, failed, and pathetically died trying to line of sight for the next few minutes after (still in 1vs1)...

After that I got toxic whisper "zoo builds take no skill to play, mine does, you suck".

When I requested a more detailed explanation, he said that he's not interested in further conversation ;(

Guess using mender, skeleton mage and blastbones is unfair nowadays, and dizzy + onslaught is what requires real skill...

xAk_MoRRoWiNdx

Dear OP,
Thank you for this dumpster fire we are about to receive. Amen

This post has more complexities to unravel than my mother, and that's saying something...

iCaliban

GallantGuardian wrote: »

Bluestin wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

Bluestin wrote: »

Living Dark is certainly annoying to fight against and should get looked at.

I don’t pvp I’m coming at this from a pve aspect

In my case I was talking from a PvP standpoint. I should have clarified that in my original post. The issue I have with it is mostly the immobilize frequency coupled with the duration. Living Dark is always active for a duration once it has been cast; alternatively Talons must be cast each time the immobilization effect is desired. As I said however, it is mostly annoying and not entirely game-play altering.

When I said "It should get looked at" perhaps it could have the duration of the immobilize adjusted.

Just for comparison sake

Both talons and living dark last for 4 seconds

The immobilize on eclipse only lasts 3 seconds opposed to talons 4

You’re immune for the same amount of time til it can be applied again to you

They are both instant casts

And roughly cost the same talons being slightly less

I just don’t see how one is worst then the other

Maybe up the amount it time of eclipse to 4 seconds immobilize so they match

But otherwise I don’t see them being much different I don’t know why one should be looked at and the other shouldn’t

Honestly when living dark was first shown I honestly would rather it be a point blank aoe root with as large a radius as talons

So to me I don’t want it to work the way it’s working anyway I just worry instead of making it a point blank aoe that it will lose its immobilize all together and templar lose their only decent immobilize

You are joking right? Living dark is incredibly cheesy. It is in no way comparable to other roots. It auto applies on ANY direct damage done while healing the user. It takes no skill, aiming or anything to use. Simply apply and anyone who wants to attack you is rooted.

Royalthought

max_only wrote: »

Having access to cleanse is the only thing that makes Templar’s the top during this dot heavy cycle. That’s it.

I run magplar as well as other classes and although I tend to avoid these types of discussions for fear of nerfs, that isn't what makes Templar strong.

Whats strong when I'm on Magplar is my ability to stack counters. Being able to counter everything efficiently is what makes it so fun and effective.

If I use ritual I'm snaring, cleansing, damaging, preventing invis and healing the entire battle field and that's before I start attacking. 1 button.

From there gap close to counter range into puncture or empowering sweeps and dodgerolling is now countered. With purifying going off there's little they can do.

When pressured I've the best heals, now add living dark, RoR, RAT and I can snare, immobilize and outrun an entire zerg. It lacks nothing imo.

GallantGuardian

iCaliban wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

Bluestin wrote: »

GallantGuardian wrote: »

Bluestin wrote: »

Living Dark is certainly annoying to fight against and should get looked at.

I don’t pvp I’m coming at this from a pve aspect

In my case I was talking from a PvP standpoint. I should have clarified that in my original post. The issue I have with it is mostly the immobilize frequency coupled with the duration. Living Dark is always active for a duration once it has been cast; alternatively Talons must be cast each time the immobilization effect is desired. As I said however, it is mostly annoying and not entirely game-play altering.

When I said "It should get looked at" perhaps it could have the duration of the immobilize adjusted.

Just for comparison sake

Both talons and living dark last for 4 seconds

The immobilize on eclipse only lasts 3 seconds opposed to talons 4

You’re immune for the same amount of time til it can be applied again to you

They are both instant casts

And roughly cost the same talons being slightly less

I just don’t see how one is worst then the other

Maybe up the amount it time of eclipse to 4 seconds immobilize so they match

But otherwise I don’t see them being much different I don’t know why one should be looked at and the other shouldn’t

Honestly when living dark was first shown I honestly would rather it be a point blank aoe root with as large a radius as talons

So to me I don’t want it to work the way it’s working anyway I just worry instead of making it a point blank aoe that it will lose its immobilize all together and templar lose their only decent immobilize

You are joking right? Living dark is incredibly cheesy. It is in no way comparable to other roots. It auto applies on ANY direct damage done while healing the user. It takes no skill, aiming or anything to use. Simply apply and anyone who wants to attack you is rooted.

Oppose to the other roots that are super skillful right ? and let’s just ignore the fact that your rooted yes but still able to do damage to people

Your immune for just as long as the other ones once you get free and or cleanse

You can purge (omg don’t tell me I can purge) why that isn’t an option and shouldn’t be used as a counter argument t is beyond me cause in the same breath people will complain that Templar’s can cleanse .... which is also making them op... purge works very similarly and for not much more than he templar skill

Cloak the sore ability to streak take ZERO skill but some how that’s ok with everyone

I don’t even pvp i hate pvp and for this very reason Templar’s could very we lose their only immobilize: cause people are over exaggerating a l2p issue... calling it zero skill while ignoring the other zero skill cheesy abilities in other classes that have been going on for years

BaiterOfZergs

Royalthought wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Having access to cleanse is the only thing that makes Templar’s the top during this dot heavy cycle. That’s it.

I run magplar as well as other classes and although I tend to avoid these types of discussions for fear of nerfs, that isn't what makes Templar strong.

Whats strong when I'm on Magplar is my ability to stack counters. Being able to counter everything efficiently is what makes it so fun and effective.

If I use ritual I'm snaring, cleansing, damaging, preventing invis and healing the entire battle field and that's before I start attacking. 1 button.

From there gap close to counter range into puncture or empowering sweeps and dodgerolling is now countered. With purifying going off there's little they can do.

When pressured I've the best heals, now add living dark, RoR, RAT and I can snare, immobilize and outrun an entire zerg. It lacks nothing imo.

Templar’s already had most of the things you see them with this update previous updates. They got an indirect buff because of zos increasing dots, although not a Templar issue. ROR is better, probably a little over tuned but a lot of people haven’t caught on. And then there’s living dark, a little annoying but I’ve killed several Magplars using it. The real difference this update is the fact living dark allows Templar’s to be on defense and offense at the same time. People are accustomed to them having to choose between offense and defense. It’s really the first time Templar’s actually have active defense in a long time.

Royalthought

BaiterOfZergs wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Having access to cleanse is the only thing that makes Templar’s the top during this dot heavy cycle. That’s it.

I run magplar as well as other classes and although I tend to avoid these types of discussions for fear of nerfs, that isn't what makes Templar strong.

Whats strong when I'm on Magplar is my ability to stack counters. Being able to counter everything efficiently is what makes it so fun and effective.

If I use ritual I'm snaring, cleansing, damaging, preventing invis and healing the entire battle field and that's before I start attacking. 1 button.

From there gap close to counter range into puncture or empowering sweeps and dodgerolling is now countered. With purifying going off there's little they can do.

When pressured I've the best heals, now add living dark, RoR, RAT and I can snare, immobilize and outrun an entire zerg. It lacks nothing imo.

Templar’s already had most of the things you see them with this update previous updates. They got an indirect buff because of zos increasing dots, although not a Templar issue. ROR is better, probably a little over tuned but a lot of people haven’t caught on. And then there’s living dark, a little annoying but I’ve killed several Magplars using it. The real difference this update is the fact living dark allows Templar’s to be on defense and offense at the same time. People are accustomed to them having to choose between offense and defense. It’s really the first time Templar’s actually have active defense in a long time.

Yep. There are direct and indirect buffs.

Templar was already plenty strong. But in addition to living dark, they've given every other ult cast times, shortened ranged CC's, nerfed abilities that healed and did damage, etc..

All that in addition to the Dot meta has had very positive effects on the class. So many ways to play it.

juhislihis19

I heard Jabs are stronger now because the CP's that reduce DOTs (Thick Skinned) and Direct Damage (Hardy) used to affect Jabs. Now only Thick Skinned reduces this damage. Any truth to this? Is is intended or a bug? I'm getting 6-7k jabs through +30k resistances at max CP, 19% at Thick Skinned. And not affected by Onslaught. And the build is not a cheese build.

Fact is, last update Cyro got filled with PetSorcs because the Battle Spirit didn't reduce pet healing or something like that. Anyhow, it was a broken mechanic that enabled a particular class to be stronger than others. So many players followed the broken class.

Now that Cyro is filled with Templars (honestly, about 70% I face are!) it's safe to say something is a bit broken.

Also Templar having a cleanse helps quite a lot now that DOTs are super strong.

I know that everyone here who plays Templar are defending them, because they want to continue play a class that hits a lot harder than others, dont' want the nerf hammer and finds nothing strange at the fact that suddenly after the patch majority of PVP players are Templars.

I'm not asking for a nerf HAMMER, just take a look at particular class if some mechanic is broken because there's always a reason behind it when huge amount of players start playing a certain class after a certain update. It was with PetSorcs, and I believe it's with Templars right now as well.

In my experience, ZOS will hammer class to oblivion, buff and break some other and people will flock onto that class, and again claim nothing is wrong with that class either. Repeat. I don't want this to happen.

Waffennacht

It's not so much about the Templars as it's about the classes the fotm peeps use to run got nerfed a bit.

Fotm pet Sorcs ran to Templars
Fotm bash necros ran to temps

Then you had the slightly less fotm wardens and NBs move to temp

The non fotm players are still rocking their classes like pros

Galarthor

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

LuxLunae wrote: »

So I decided to not use my Templar

onslaught isnt broken bud its templar

Onslaught is (part of) the issue, b/c the issue is not contained to Templars alone.

First of all, completely negating resistances for 12 second is utter design-***. The skill is so strong that it is incorporated by magicka builds for the debuff alone!

Secondly, the combo of Dizzying Swing + Onslaught + Executioner is the issue, and all of these skills are part of the issue.
1) Dizzying Swing deals too much damage. The other day I took 9.6k hits on 7.7k shields in nonCP
2) The CC of Dizzying Swing cannot be broken reliably - i.e. there is often some major delay before you actually can break free.
3) 12 seconds complete negate of any resistances + large damage of Onslaught is completely ridiculous. Unless you have percentage based mitigations such as block, dodge, protection buffs, cloak you are completely screwed.
4) Executioner itself is mostly fine, but in combination with points 1) through 3) is completely devastating.

The other day I took 9.6k hits on 7.7k shields in nonCP and that's from a spammable. That is not sustatinable from a defensive point of view. A spammable attack that deals more damage and is cheaper than a main defensive skill simply cannot work from a balance point of view.

Also dodging and/or blocking every Dizzying Swing, as some suggested, is not really viable for Magicka builds given the cost of such acitvities and the stam recovery + dodge & block cost reduction Magicka builds can afford if they want to remain viable.

This also extends to the scenario where you only dodge after you break free. As you don't know exactly after which Dizzying Swing the Onslaught will come, you will have to dodge after every single break free. That is in addition to breaking free from both stuns and roots. Again, that is something that is just not sustainable for Magicka builds.

And if you take into consideration how long it actually takes to break the CC from Dizzying Swing (both when it works properly and when it does not) then you simply cannot afford to get stunned by it at all, bringing us back the having to dodge or block every single Dizzying Swing - which is not sustainable!

The combo Dizzying Swing + Onslaught + Executioner is a one-shot combo that does not allow for any decent counterplay by magicka builds and as such is completely imbalanced!

mursie

max_only wrote: »

Someone explain op please. I can’t tell. Are they a Nightblade? Are they a Templar? Are they getting killed by onslaught? Or are they a Nightblade who cloaks until they can use onslaught and picks the obvious mage character after all their stamina has been drained by rolling and breaking free?

Help me out here guys, this seems complex.

it was very easy to understand

Bing, Bing, Stamina back, cloak, NEXT....

what part is difficult? bing? or 2nd bing? or stam back? or cloak?

very simple reallly

Waffennacht

mursie wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Someone explain op please. I can’t tell. Are they a Nightblade? Are they a Templar? Are they getting killed by onslaught? Or are they a Nightblade who cloaks until they can use onslaught and picks the obvious mage character after all their stamina has been drained by rolling and breaking free?

Help me out here guys, this seems complex.

it was very easy to understand

Bing, Bing, Stamina back, cloak, NEXT....

what part is difficult? bing? or 2nd bing? or stam back? or cloak?

very simple reallly

I only understand the cloak part myself lmfao

jadarock

Galarthor wrote: »

StrandedMonkey wrote: »

LuxLunae wrote: »

So I decided to not use my Templar

onslaught isnt broken bud its templar

Onslaught is (part of) the issue, b/c the issue is not contained to Templars alone.

First of all, completely negating resistances for 12 second is utter design-***. The skill is so strong that it is incorporated by magicka builds for the debuff alone!

Secondly, the combo of Dizzying Swing + Onslaught + Executioner is the issue, and all of these skills are part of the issue.
1) Dizzying Swing deals too much damage. The other day I took 9.6k hits on 7.7k shields in nonCP
2) The CC of Dizzying Swing cannot be broken reliably - i.e. there is often some major delay before you actually can break free.
3) 12 seconds complete negate of any resistances + large damage of Onslaught is completely ridiculous. Unless you have percentage based mitigations such as block, dodge, protection buffs, cloak you are completely screwed.
4) Executioner itself is mostly fine, but in combination with points 1) through 3) is completely devastating.

The other day I took 9.6k hits on 7.7k shields in nonCP and that's from a spammable. That is not sustatinable from a defensive point of view. A spammable attack that deals more damage and is cheaper than a main defensive skill simply cannot work from a balance point of view.

Also dodging and/or blocking every Dizzying Swing, as some suggested, is not really viable for Magicka builds given the cost of such acitvities and the stam recovery + dodge & block cost reduction Magicka builds can afford if they want to remain viable.

This also extends to the scenario where you only dodge after you break free. As you don't know exactly after which Dizzying Swing the Onslaught will come, you will have to dodge after every single break free. That is in addition to breaking free from both stuns and roots. Again, that is something that is just not sustainable for Magicka builds.

And if you take into consideration how long it actually takes to break the CC from Dizzying Swing (both when it works properly and when it does not) then you simply cannot afford to get stunned by it at all, bringing us back the having to dodge or block every single Dizzying Swing - which is not sustainable!

The combo Dizzying Swing + Onslaught + Executioner is a one-shot combo that does not allow for any decent counterplay by magicka builds and as such is completely imbalanced!

Facts

HowlKimchi

Well dswing doesn't stun anymore now.

Tesfa

Bluestin wrote: »

I legitimately don't understand the "Templar is broken" thing that has come up after damage over time effects were buffed. The only things that changed about Templar were Solar barrage having its damage reduced by 33% and Vampire's bane losing some of its direct damage for slightly increased damage over time.

Living Dark is certainly annoying to fight against and should get looked at, but other than that I really don't get it; they haven't changed much since Murkmire.

I believe the issue with Templar’s is the massive utility they have, the added OP dots put them overboard.

heng14rwb17_ESO

KILL ALL SPARE NONE !