Should we "get rid of" tank & heal and use another system?

Drako_Ei

Implement a DPS check for veteran dungeons.

Or make everyone's DPS visible to everyone, more or like the hodor addon, built in-game.

That way people can realize they need to work on their rotations....

Some people are light attacking the boss to death and they dont realize they are being carried, so they queue for vet frostvault next and make their tanks quit GF

dcam86b14_ESO

no.

All roles matter.

richo262

I agree with the problem. They need to make it possible to have a character with multiple builds, multiple presets of attributes / CP and multiple sets of gear.

Doing this would however make the player only want 6 characters (one for each class) rather than 18, so I proposed this:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490100/anybody-else-suffering-from-too-many-characters/p1

An optional way to merge 3 characters of the same class into 1. The player chooses the primary character (appearance, and any quests have been completed that had a choice get priority) and can sacrifice their other character to it transferring all progress in quests, shards, tree levels, lore books, motifs etc to it to combine into one character. The end result would be a second loadout.

EG If you have a Nord DK Tank and a Breton mDK. You have to pick one you like the most, if you pick the Nord at your primary, you can sacrifice your Breton (Technically Azura gives him his soul back, and he then dies naturally) and his essence transfers to your Nord. Your Nord now has a second profile that he can change to with Breton racials, along with a second loadout for attributes / gear / cp / etc.

So you can swap your Nord DK Tank to a Breton mDK at whim. Would make it very nice for questing, and ideal as an offtank in MOL / HOF and various other instances.

This also means players would still want to buy and level all 18 slots and may merge them creating 6 characters, one of each class, with 3 loadouts from sacrificing 2 characters to 1 primary. I would say that it would be nice to have more than 3 so people can make multiple roles and a PVP / RP / Farming loadout. EG. 1 Primary = 1 loadout. 1 Primary + 1 Sacrifice = 3 loadouts. 1 Primary + 2 Sacrifices = 6 loadouts.

Tank
StamDPS
MagDPS
Healing
PvP
Role Play / Farming / PVP2 / Anything else.

If this was the case, I would buy all 18 slots, I would level all to 50, merge all into 6 unique characters and I would fit out all 6 loadouts with gear.

It would need to be optional of course, some players may want to have 18 characters for daily writs and such. Some may prefer to make their characters more well rounded and suitable for any engagement by condensing their characters down.

I would say to combat that would be for daily writ rewards
1 Primary = Standard reward from writs
1 Primary + 1 Sacrifice = Standard reward from writs + 50% of double drop
1 Primary + 2 Sacrifice = Double drop

Still not as effective as all 18 writting away, but is something.

ArchMikem

This would encourage dungeon soloing. A pure dps build using the Tank buff. The buff would also need to come with a damage done debuff at least.

max_only

Rungar wrote: »

The dungeons is what needs to change and if they change the rest will change as well. These linear raid mechanic style dungeons are a turd and a waste of effort since horns of the reach.

players are only interested if the mechanics are subtle like in the base game dungeons. i.e the raid mechanic model is a total failure.

Jeremy wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

The dungeons is what needs to change and if they change the rest will change as well. These linear raid mechanic style dungeons are a turd and a waste of effort since horns of the reach.

players are only interested if the mechanics are subtle like in the base game dungeons. i.e the raid mechanic model is a total failure.

Horns of the Reach is when their dungeons started to go down hill. So I'm with you there. I also totally agree with you that mechanics need to be subtle as you put it. When the dungeon revolves around stupid one-shot mechanisms it diminishes the value of role-based combat to begin with - and leads to people just wanting to stack as much DPS as possible so they can get the fight over with asap to avoid them.

Hopefully this new development team will start taking dungeons in a new direction.

Yes.
The problem is not the triad. The problem is dungeon design.

aetherial_heavenn

Rather than the game being an epeen competition based on streamers dummy parses until you do hard vets or trials there could be other ways to encourage other roles

...if the dungeons were designed/revisited without unhealable one shots... if dungeons had enrage mechanics or summat that actually punished avoiding mechanics by over dpsing...if the taunt mechanism was revisited to allow aggro swapping.... if there was an aggro table so over dpsing, or over healing gave you aggro that the group had to manage...If healers could actually get half the achievements completed instead of achievements being related to kill 1000 mobs.....if self heals were nerfed if you did over 30k dps average in a normal dungeon ...if every debuff on bosses and buff on the group was recognised by rewarding the character with a buff /debuff provider skin/achievement similar to the blocker/kill x mobs achievements... if the screen flashed your own actual dps on the last boss (just to you)....if every time a healer/tank saved a life, the group got informed by the game who did the lifesaving heal or taunt/block/interrupt/debuff

then tanks and healers might get some appreciation.

Meanwhile... High DPS ignore mechanics and get rewarded and Low dps don't even know how bad they are. Dedicated healers and tanks queue with friends who understand that they will need 'support' some day and it maybe wise to encourage people to play these roles...and those without friends queue as fakes and perpetuate 'the DPS is the only fun valid and rewarding role' stereotype we see in streams and on the forums and in game.

I'd love a combat metrics add on that said bluntly..'without the tank blocking/interrupting/turning the mob around you would have been dead X times for standing in stupid' and 'your dps would have been 20% less without the healer proving buffs and debuffs and keeping you alive so you could do your dps rotation with perfect LA weaving.'

One can dream

SoLooney

Competent tanks and healers dont dare to to use lfg with pugs. Do you know why? Bad horrible dps who are floorlords

I tanked a random normal and it took my dps 5 to 10min to kill each boss, that is frustrating, boring, and a waste of my time. I had lightning wall, giving minor brutality, using war horns, engulfing flames, yolnakriin and alkosh. And the dps was still terrible

So unless the bad dps gets fixed, you are not gonna fix the tank and healer issues for lfg

Mitrenga

No.
Why not revamp the dungeons? Require a tank and a healer to progress?
And no, there are not few healers and tanks. Just join a guild and you will get a lot of help.

Commancho

Jeremy wrote: »

Rungar wrote: »

The dungeons is what needs to change and if they change the rest will change as well. These linear raid mechanic style dungeons are a turd and a waste of effort since horns of the reach.

players are only interested if the mechanics are subtle like in the base game dungeons. i.e the raid mechanic model is a total failure.

Horns of the Reach is when their dungeons started to go down hill. So I'm with you there. I also totally agree with you that mechanics need to be subtle as you put it. When the dungeon revolves around stupid one-shot mechanisms it diminishes the value of role-based combat to begin with - and leads to people just wanting to stack as much DPS as possible so they can get the fight over with asap to avoid them.

Hopefully this new development team will start taking dungeons in a new direction.

Exactly, I have been saying this for long time.

idk

Jeremy wrote: »

gangyzgirl wrote: »

I have two toons that both main a tank and a healer and they’ve been able to do the overland and story content without issue. Maybe it takes a tad longer on the tank but it can still be done. I think people just need an incentive to play tanks and healers. I know I often don’t que and certainly not for vet dlcs due to bad experiences with low damage dps. Maybe if there was an added benefit to queuing up the que would be shorter since we aren’t taking the time to group with friends and guildies.

Wow and Final Fantasy 14 do that - and give extra rewards for people who queue up as roles "in need". It works well. So I like your suggestion far better.

They are not the only ones that do that. However it would work well in ESO to further encourage fake tanks.

The reality is there is already an incentive to tank or heal, it is a faster queue. However, tanks quickly learn that far to often they end up with pretty bad dps and it just becomes this arduous chore. That is why most tanks avoid the GF and get into groups from guild and sometimes even zone.

ShellaSunshine

Dual respec sounds like a fantastic idea but there's still a problem with having to carry around several sets.

Not everyone wants to spend money on a personal Banker and it's been 5 years so we should have another increase in inventory. I would be happy with an additonal 10 slots.

What I really think should happen is that tanks should have an HP lock when selecting that role. If your total HP before food/drink buffs is less than 30k, then you'll receive an error message that you do not meet the requirements of that role.

I'm so sick and tired of players with terrible DPS, no taunt, 12k HP, and queue up as tank in veteran dungeons (especially DLC ones) and just run around in circles like a chicken with their head cut off. It makes the dungeon LONGER when other players cannot burn the enemies because the "tank" cannot keep them still.

In my experience, it is always the player with the poorest DPS that queues up as tank... Learning a semi-decent rotation is NOT that hard but some of these players cannot even hit 10k when you can easily do that just by randomly mashing buttons.

Put an HP lock on the tank role.

Elwendryll

They are updating the group finder. Maybe we'll get custom group compositions?

The more I play, the more my characters are able to play any role. It's just a matter of switching things around, the more annoying being the Mundus stone.

With the last update, I got more dps AND decent group healing, so I play like an off-heal (as a stamina DD) and add my group healing on top of the healers' when I feel like it helps, for instance I pop a ring of preservation and an healing negate during Lokke HM beam ticks. People can argue whether or not it's worth it. I only know it's better to be safe than sorry And Ring adds stam regen while negate boost damage of DW users with the Ruffian passive.

When they changed Dawnbreaker I just slotted Absorption field, and I really enjoy using it again. Especially during vMoL twins 😈

Samadhi

get rid of the bland dps-race mechanics and make dungeons more about thoughtful, reactive combat