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Should we "get rid of" tank & heal and use another system?

Lyserus
Lyserus
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This is going to be controversial, but hear me out

1.Why we need this change
a. There are so few of tank and heal.
Even with the future performance improvement plan, I think we can all agree that it's not going to change the fact that DPS would need to queue for over 20 minutes and sometime would get a fake tank or heal after that. The current three role system simply doesn't work well
b.They are quite bad in open world.
I think this is also another reason why there are so few tank and heal, they simply are not "viable" outside of instanced content, to use them, you will need to grind levels and gears and only able to use them for queueing. They are weak when solo, and when they can't even carry themselves in "easy overland", you know it's bad. Also, It wouldn't be a problem had overland is harder and require cooperation, but we all know how overland is in ESO.
c.They are making balancing hard
Especially since ESO insist on balancing pvp and pve together. What maybe nice and balance in pve/pvp maybe way too broken for pvp/pve, and most of them are survival/heal sets. (Damage sets have this problem too, but they are rather easy to get spotted and re-balance)

2.The new system and why it's better
a.The new system:
Players get to choose their preference role (not garanteeing you will get the role) when queueing for instanced content, and when a group is formed, players assigned to tank role and heal role will receive a tank/healing buff, making them more tanky/heal more in this instance (dungeon/trial/arena). Basically, this is the "battle spirit" of pve. And of couse, some of the tank gear and heal gear will need to adjusted.
b.Why this is better
First, the steps needed to adjust from a overland character to a tank/heal in dungeon is easier, since you will only need that instance buff and equip some different gear and skills, you don't need to completely rebuild your character just to be a tank/heal in normal/vanilla vet dungeons. (Of course tho for advanced contents some professional tank and heal build is still appreciated)
Second, since your character can be adjusted easily to any of the three roles with the instance buff, your assigned role when you queue doesn't necessarily have to be the one you preferenced. It may create some confusion at first, but with time it will make player queueing easier and faster, and less stress for queue machine hamster.
Also, your "tank" or "healer" won't be miserable in overland content, they can finally be free to explore, doing quests solo to build up their character lore etc.
Finally, nerfing overpowered survival gear (be it tank or heal) will make it easier for ZOS to balance the game, no more undying characters in pvp
  • sindalstar
    sindalstar
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    Your suggestion fixes nothing. It gives people who aren't healers and tanks a defense and healing boost that they can use to make themselves more survivable while everyone else suffers.

    There are no tanks and healers because people dont want to be tanks or healers. They want to dps. Becuase dpsing is inherently more fun. Because the point of the game is to kill the boss. Your doing what the game is designed for.

    Putting them under the role, when they are geared for dealing damage and plan on doing damage, just means theyll do damage. Not a single one will go "ok.better switch to my tank gear now that I have "the tank buff" that makes me tanky"

    The current tanks are tanks are tanky enough. The current healers heal enough (and I mean the people who actually gear for it). We have next to no problem doing our job.

    But no one else wants to do our job. A free buff to healing or tanking will make those people heal themselves or run in knowing they're extra tanky and do damage.

    The fact that some people think their fun is more important than a tank struggling for resources or healing, or a healer having to wring themselves dry of magicka to try and heal everyone as they run around like headless chickens AND STILL GET AWAY WITH IT BECAUSE THE GAME REWARDS WHAT YOU DO is telling.

    I've had ti tank the final boss of a dungeon, in vet, in HM, as a healer, in light armour, with no stamina investment.

    What did the dps do? Stand on the other side and do pitiful damage. Occasionally dying because I couldn't heal them.

    But we got the same reward.
  • Golden_Cat
    Golden_Cat
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    Just make a second GF system without any role for normal dungeons, if 4 DPSs can finish by themselves, it's good for them. If 4 tanks or healer are grouped together they can still finish the dungeon or break to form new group.
    People can still use the current system for hard dungeons or when they do veteran ones which require all roles.
  • zaria
    zaria
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    Jhalin wrote: »
    Literally no one is struggling in overland unless they're deaf, blind, and insist on playing with both hands tied behind their back

    Re this with tanks. Perhaps struggling is the wrong word here but tryong to level a tank as a tank is damn near impossible unless you want everything to take 50 times longer because fights take forever. Even when adding a bit of dps it still takes significantly longer than just going out and out dsp.
    So idk, maybe with regards to tanks "boring as hell" would be a better description than struggling..
    The way I does it is to put health and a bit three stat on armor while character has mostly stamina with a bit extra health.
    Switch to some simple stamina dd set then not tanking. Yes you are basically low cp as cp is tanking focused but it works more than well enough for overland.
    Grinding just make you go in circles.
    Asking ZoS for nerfs is as stupid as asking for close air support from the death star.
  • sindalstar
    sindalstar
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    Iskiab wrote: »
    Tanks do get rewarded, they have no wait times in dungeon queues in pve.

    That's a happenstance, not a reward.

    "Because tanking is so unrewarding, I won't make one. Why bother?

    Because there are few tanks, the que gobbles any available tanks up"

    If there was something making tanking more appealing beyond "I like tanking" to the greater populus, tanks would not have a short que.

    (I'm not saying tanks and healers have to be rewarded btw. I'm fine as I am. The rest of the people not tanking or healing clearly need something though)
    Edited by sindalstar on September 11, 2019 11:10AM
  • idk
    idk
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    Jhalin wrote: »
    Literally no one is struggling in overland unless they're deaf, blind, and insist on playing with both hands tied behind their back

    Re this with tanks. Perhaps struggling is the wrong word here but tryong to level a tank as a tank is damn near impossible unless you want everything to take 50 times longer because fights take forever. Even when adding a bit of dps it still takes significantly longer than just going out and out dsp.
    So idk, maybe with regards to tanks "boring as hell" would be a better description than struggling..

    Why would you level a tank as a pure tank?

    While I do not understand why you find it near impossible since overland is not that challenging, it just makes sense to have a dps build and use the back bar for turn ins while leveling. Even at end game I have dps builds for my tanks for when I go do quests. I just swap out skills and gear.

    This is the way we have been leveling up characters for over 5 years now. Even when leveling up dps builds many of us use the back bar as a turn in bar for skills and weapons that are off spec or just not needed while leveling.
    Really, idk
  • FearlessOne_2014
    FearlessOne_2014
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    idk wrote: »
    Literally the idea is to create fake tanks on purpose. What a fabulous idea. It also ignores why tanks avoid the GF to begin with, bad DPS.

    Yup as a tank myself I don't use group finder. If I can't get peeps from Guild or Friends List. Than I'll just simply go without that dungeon for the day.

    I got tired of queuing for Vet Pledges long time ago. After witnessing many groups where group DPS was lower than 25K DPS and as tank or healer I was pulling 25% or more of the group DPS. Nah enough of that heartache. I'll pass on that thank you very much!

    Fake DPS is a huge issue too. And ruins all of the fun. Also fake DPS make many Vet-Groups turn into 3 hour failures. Screw that noise. I've learned my lesson long time ago. Guild or Friend group or none at all for me.
    Hope is Nothing More, than a Postponed Disappointment
  • peacenote
    peacenote
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    I would rather see dual specs be implemented.

    Everyone would take the buff unless role choices were limited, which then would be too restrictive on group composition, especially in trials.

    Always good to see new, creative ideas come through the forum though!
  • Wifeaggro13
    Wifeaggro13
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    Lyserus wrote: »
    This is going to be controversial, but hear me out

    1.Why we need this change
    a. There are so few of tank and heal.
    Even with the future performance improvement plan, I think we can all agree that it's not going to change the fact that DPS would need to queue for over 20 minutes and sometime would get a fake tank or heal after that. The current three role system simply doesn't work well
    b.They are quite bad in open world.
    I think this is also another reason why there are so few tank and heal, they simply are not "viable" outside of instanced content, to use them, you will need to grind levels and gears and only able to use them for queueing. They are weak when solo, and when they can't even carry themselves in "easy overland", you know it's bad. Also, It wouldn't be a problem had overland is harder and require cooperation, but we all know how overland is in ESO.
    c.They are making balancing hard
    Especially since ESO insist on balancing pvp and pve together. What maybe nice and balance in pve/pvp maybe way too broken for pvp/pve, and most of them are survival/heal sets. (Damage sets have this problem too, but they are rather easy to get spotted and re-balance)

    2.The new system and why it's better
    a.The new system:
    Players get to choose their preference role (not garanteeing you will get the role) when queueing for instanced content, and when a group is formed, players assigned to tank role and heal role will receive a tank/healing buff, making them more tanky/heal more in this instance (dungeon/trial/arena). Basically, this is the "battle spirit" of pve. And of couse, some of the tank gear and heal gear will need to adjusted.
    b.Why this is better
    First, the steps needed to adjust from a overland character to a tank/heal in dungeon is easier, since you will only need that instance buff and equip some different gear and skills, you don't need to completely rebuild your character just to be a tank/heal in normal/vanilla vet dungeons. (Of course tho for advanced contents some professional tank and heal build is still appreciated)
    Second, since your character can be adjusted easily to any of the three roles with the instance buff, your assigned role when you queue doesn't necessarily have to be the one you preferenced. It may create some confusion at first, but with time it will make player queueing easier and faster, and less stress for queue machine hamster.
    Also, your "tank" or "healer" won't be miserable in overland content, they can finally be free to explore, doing quests solo to build up their character lore etc.
    Finally, nerfing overpowered survival gear (be it tank or heal) will make it easier for ZOS to balance the game, no more undying characters in pvp

    No, just no. How about they just fix their half ass MMO. Unfortunately 90% of the people that que dont know how to play any role regardless especially dps. They run around trying to solo the friggin zone them blame their healer or tank. You want a quicker que? Go make a damn group by making relationships in game. WTF
  • kylewwefan
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    When I Tank, I’m at the mercy of whatever gawd awful DPS the group finder brings me. Often leave wandering why I do this to myself.

    I could maybe back bar a 2H, be a werewolf or tank in light armor using Destro staves to make up for the group inadequacy.

    But then have to completely re gear or re spec for different content. This is no trivial matter on console. Major PITA.

    I like the idea of an instance buff. Sounds interesting. If it could be implemented well.
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  • MartiniDaniels
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    Can't say about healing but tanking is 90% about experience. "Tank buff" won't make person a tank.

    About overland, idk, without gear switching dps is low, but switching body heavy set for medium armor (VO for example) + alkosh gives you more then enough damage for overland.
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  • idk
    idk
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    Can't say about healing but tanking is 90% about experience. "Tank buff" won't make person a tank.

    About overland, idk, without gear switching dps is low, but switching body heavy set for medium armor (VO for example) + alkosh gives you more then enough damage for overland.

    OP's idea would create more fake tanks as they would be forced into a tanking role even if they did not chose it and even if they do not have a taunt.

    Same goes with healing. It would put players into a healing role even if they have nothing unlocked to heal the group.

    Nothing about the idea makes any sense.
    kylewwefan wrote: »
    When I Tank, I’m at the mercy of whatever gawd awful DPS the group finder brings me. Often leave wandering why I do this to myself.

    This is the biggest reason most tanks avoid the GF. It is so much easier and a much better experience when we queue with guild members or even with a random group formed from zone.
    Really, idk
  • bmnoble
    bmnoble
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    So let me get this idea of yours OP,

    Say 4 DPS queue in this new system of yours, 1 is given a healing buff, 1 a tanking buff, following you so far.

    Now of those 4 DPS what happens if none of them have any experience what so ever of being a tank or healer and have none of the relevant gear? (and with the state of the queue system at the moment this is likely to occur)

    Lets assume the buff makes up for the required gear for a healer or tank, the DPS who have been assigned the heal or tank role are still going to be lacking the relevant skills to do the role.

    Even if this buff is something similar to the hammer in Cyrodiil, magically replaces the ability's of the selected tank/healer in the party, those players still need knowledge of how to use the skills they may have just been dumped with for the first time in the dungeon, assuming this buff picks party member at random, your going to end up with a lot of first time healers and tanks in dungeons, with DPS who still want to go fast.

    Combine that with the sheer number of DPS I have encountered while tanking PUG groups that have never bothered to learn mechanics.

    Giving a player, a taunt, high health and resistances with a buff, won't help if the player is unwilling to play the role or know what they are suppose to do in the role.

    Assuming someone who plays a DPS does not just leave the group if they ever end up being picked for the support roles, some people just don't want to do those roles they do not find it as fun as being a DPS.

    Ultimately I just don't see it solving the problem, might give some DPS players a taste of what its like to be a support role and why many who play the support roles avoid the PUG groups.

    Even if it did ZOS would never do it, would take them too much effort.



    As for incentive to play the support roles, it would have to be something good to get people to do it, simply adding more XP as a reward won't stop players just grouping with guild mates avoiding the PUG queues the same as they do now.

    To be completely honest I think its time for a re-evaluation of the Dungeon/Battleground finder rewards, just to me they seem really lacking, I have no issue ignoring dungeons/battlegrounds completely for long amounts of time, there is nothing that screams at me I must do this (other than friends that pester me for a tank)




  • Itzmichi
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    This would be just unbalanced and not very useful at all, its not like a proper tank or healer would need this kind of buffs. Most of the time im trying to avoid the GF because of bad DDs with group damage of 10k while im doing 35% of it on my tank.

    I rather would like to have a similar buff like we had when fighting molag bal for like 90% of the DDs queueing up as such.
    Here, have a chill pill 💊!
  • karekiz
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    People not wanting to be tanks is hardly an ESO issue. Its a MMO issue. Generally tanks get tossed front line and deal with <Insert major thing here> and often subject to blame if <X dps/healer> dies to <Y Attack here>. DPS is seen as easier starting role. You generally sit there do your thing w/o anyone counting on you to do a specific action. So for many that is a easier role to pick first to learn the game.

    Granted in ESO its a tad different, but if you assume they come from other games that is usually how it works.
    Edited by karekiz on September 11, 2019 2:22PM
  • redlink1979
    redlink1979
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    Controversial? No, delusional.
    "Sweet Mother, sweet Mother, send your child unto me, for the sins of the unworthy must be baptized in blood and fear"

    Speaker of Sons of the Night Mother guild [PS4][EU]

    1200+ CP
  • nafensoriel
    nafensoriel
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    Lyserus wrote: »
    /snipsnip

    It's not controversial. It's also a very old issue that no one has really fixed without class homogenization.
    It's an issue as old as clerics in DND. If you ever have a class that can heal well enough to not need a healer and DPS enough to not need DPS.. then it becomes the defacto meta for 99% of gameplay. Yes, other things MIGHT be better.. but never better enough to choose for the majority of players.


    Your ideas don't really fix that basic axiom.

    Trinity is also considerably easy to design around. How would you handle raids when everyone's a tank? Swarm the screen with enemies? Lower damage enough that anyone can effectively solo the content? Since everyone can solo it would you add arbitrary kill points?
    Not having trinity rapidly crushes balance and adds difficulty to everything design-wise.

  • Cryptical
    Cryptical
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    No.

    Zeni sorta painted themselves into a corner when they gave so much focus on avoidance-mechanics and one-shots in dungeons paired with their absolute refusal to revisit earlier content. This refusal stretches to the most simple of things - the one I point out most is that even today if you finish bloodroot forge you are trapped there. No portal to the start, no way to walk out, you must leave group or pay to fast travel.

    What is actually needed is simple. The need for tanks and healers must be strengthened by making it so that dps cannot fulfil the role without dedication. For tanks, this means making the system function that dps can't take the hits. Good news: the game is 95% there due to the damaging dots and debuffs and bleeds and big hits. Let's call it a success and move on.

    For healers, I think zeni is going the right direction with the recent solid wielding of heal reduction in scalebreaker, but heal negation seems like a super powered cudgel. I hope it is used with nuance and dexterity going forward or it will just become an overplayed irritant. But if the existing content remains untouched then It will take frakking *years* for any significant percentage of the game to provide motivation toward putting a healer in the group. Approaching existing content with the intent of giving It just a bit of reshaping would definitely give plenty of opportunity for more surgical use of healing reduction.

    It needs to be pointed out that any change is not going to be seen for quite a while. One of the failures of communication from zeni is just how far out on the calendar they are. In the absence of any info, the players think the worst which led to the commonly held belief that the devs just jackass around. 99% of the players have zero idea what actually goes into software projects of this size, and the 1% that do were easily drowned out until zeni actually gave us a look forward. Bravo on the sharing, let's expand it to better connect with the players.
    9738fa8934b96b49c8f409791a76cc25.jpg

    Xbox NA / Main heals
  • ZeroXFF
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    idk wrote: »
    Jhalin wrote: »
    Literally no one is struggling in overland unless they're deaf, blind, and insist on playing with both hands tied behind their back

    Re this with tanks. Perhaps struggling is the wrong word here but tryong to level a tank as a tank is damn near impossible unless you want everything to take 50 times longer because fights take forever. Even when adding a bit of dps it still takes significantly longer than just going out and out dsp.
    So idk, maybe with regards to tanks "boring as hell" would be a better description than struggling..

    Why would you level a tank as a pure tank?

    While I do not understand why you find it near impossible since overland is not that challenging, it just makes sense to have a dps build and use the back bar for turn ins while leveling. Even at end game I have dps builds for my tanks for when I go do quests. I just swap out skills and gear.

    This is the way we have been leveling up characters for over 5 years now. Even when leveling up dps builds many of us use the back bar as a turn in bar for skills and weapons that are off spec or just not needed while leveling.

    To do dungeons before lvl50/CP160.

    And yes, I know, you don't need a real tank in normal, but it sure would help people get used to the role if they weren't actively punished for choosing it, and fewer of them would suck and/or learn to hate the role by the time they hit lvl cap.

    The way that in other games leveling a tank is made fun at low levels is by giving tanks fairly high AoE DPS along with low single target. That way when they are solo, they can aggro a lot of mobs, and still survive until they are all dead. Sadly this wouldn't work in ESO for 3 reasons:
    1. Overland is too easy, even a DD won't die, no matter how much stuff they pull.
    2. AoE skills are basically on par with single target skills on damage.
    3. Mobs really love to run away in ESO, so it's not easy to take advantage of this kind of skill set.
    Edited by ZeroXFF on September 11, 2019 5:43PM
  • Chelo
    Chelo
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    It's easier just to give us dual espec, like other MMOs. That way people don't have to respec they entire build for each role. We could be DPS/tank, DPS/healer or healer/tank, and just switch between builds by pressing a key... A lot of MMOs have this system, you could be a DPS when you PvP and a healer when you PvE...
  • Fur_like_snow
    Fur_like_snow
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    Normal dungeon queue should be listed as “3 DPS and 1 support”.
    Edited by Fur_like_snow on September 11, 2019 4:49PM
  • idk
    idk
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    Normal dungeon queue should be listed as “3 DPS and 1 support”.

    There are players that actually need a tank and heals in many normal dungeons. Sadly.
    Really, idk
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