Detect Potions

snipezor

Is there any particular reason why there is no indication that a player has used a detect potion? Until they're on top of you, cleaving you in half, I mean.

idk

Are you certain they were using detect potions?

snipezor

It didn't appear to be camouflaged hunter because it was from such a long distance, and it was definitely not magelight unless the graphic glitched on 3 different occasions. There weren't many people around at the time, so I don't think lag was a factor.

Also, I went back into their area later and used my own detect pot and found them at about the same range they had seen me previously, so I'm fairly certain it was a detect potion.

idk

Test notification with a friend. See if there is something.

HowlKimchi

iirc, there should be an eye on top of their head. Really hard to comment on this as there is no video proof. Could be a lot of factors.

Rianai

The "red eye" indicator is only visible to the user of the potion.

Luede

advice, dont rely exclusively on stealth. weak gank builds bring u nowhere.

HowlKimchi

Rianai wrote: »

The "red eye" indicator is only visible to the user of the potion.

"A visual effect will now appear over your character’s head when using Detection Potions, Magelight, or Expert Hunter to notify other players of your ability to see sneaking/invisible enemies."

from: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5372942#Comment_5372942

HowlKimchi

snipezor wrote: »

It didn't appear to be camouflaged hunter because it was from such a long distance, and it was definitely not magelight unless the graphic glitched on 3 different occasions. There weren't many people around at the time, so I don't think lag was a factor.

Also, I went back into their area later and used my own detect pot and found them at about the same range they had seen me previously, so I'm fairly certain it was a detect potion.

Back to the topic. It could be they saw you before you entered cloak and walked to your direction, you cast a skill that revealed you from cloak, they were using detection and you didn't notice, etc. I've had a lot of bow gankers accuse me of cheating after I go to their position and teabag them after I kill them.

afaik there's no bug regarding this matter. but if you can replicate it and show that there's indeed a bug then that would be very useful.

Rianai

What the devs say and how the game actually works doesn't always match. I even reported this as bug shortly after said patch, but no reaction or change since then.
Has really anyone ever seen that red eye over another player's head?

snipezor

Luede wrote: »

advice, dont rely exclusively on stealth. weak gank builds bring u nowhere.

While I appreciate the advice, I do run shields, heals, and even purge as well as cloak on my ranged magblade, who I wouldn't consider being a ganker.

I'm just asking about this because it would be nice to find out why it is that I have no advance notice that someone has just removed an ability from my bar for the next 12-15 seconds.

I don't believe I've ever seen a red eye above anyone other than myself, even when I see people with magelight actively running the orb around themselves. Maybe I need to have a look at UI/visual settings?

MartiniDaniels

Lol. Imagine whining on only reliable counter to most powerful PVP ablity in the game.
It doesn't even have declared 20 meters of detection. It's more like 12-13 meters. Imo they should buff duration and radius, now pot allows you to kill NB only if you manage to time everything right: survive and recover after NB burst, deal some damage to put NB to 60-70% HP. Then detection pot, cc, and short and correctly executed burst. Mess at least 1 thing and NB will just run away as soon as it will notice cloak spam is not working.

snipezor

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Lol. Imagine whining on only reliable counter to most powerful PVP ablity in the game.
It doesn't even have declared 20 meters of detection. It's more like 12-13 meters. Imo they should buff duration and radius, now pot allows you to kill NB only if you manage to time everything right: survive and recover after NB burst, deal some damage to put NB to 60-70% HP. Then detection pot, cc, and short and correctly executed burst. Mess at least 1 thing and NB will just run away as soon as it will notice cloak spam is not working.

Oh, hi there. I see you meant to leave an enlightening post in an otherwise civil thread where someone (me) was just asking why an action works as it does (or doesn't, in this case) and instead needed to vent about how those big bad nightblades hurt your tender feelings.

I just want you to know that I understand, and that together we can work toward making you a tolerable individual.

MartiniDaniels

snipezor wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Lol. Imagine whining on only reliable counter to most powerful PVP ablity in the game.
It doesn't even have declared 20 meters of detection. It's more like 12-13 meters. Imo they should buff duration and radius, now pot allows you to kill NB only if you manage to time everything right: survive and recover after NB burst, deal some damage to put NB to 60-70% HP. Then detection pot, cc, and short and correctly executed burst. Mess at least 1 thing and NB will just run away as soon as it will notice cloak spam is not working.

Oh, hi there. I see you meant to leave an enlightening post in an otherwise civil thread where someone (me) was just asking why an action works as it does (or doesn't, in this case) and instead needed to vent about how those big bad nightblades hurt your tender feelings.

I just want you to know that I understand, and that together we can work toward making you a tolerable individual.

I just stated facts, and you already wrote two salty sentences and you think I need to vent? NBs which I usually meet, just use tp to shadow and then kite behind LOS until detection wears off. That's why I wrote that you can't just use pot in the beginning of encounter, you must use it precisely when you are ready to cc-burst, otherwise NB will just reset fight..

Also your own in-game indicator shows that you are detected, why you need additional one, idk...

Rianai

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Also your own in-game indicator shows that you are detected, why you need additional one, idk...

It does not when detected by pots.

MartiniDaniels

Rianai wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Also your own in-game indicator shows that you are detected, why you need additional one, idk...

It does not when detected by pots.

Then it is bug. Also all solo NB's I fight somehow know that I used pot because they immediately stop spamming cloak and if they had advantage after initial burst continue to fight without cloak or if odds look bad then tp to shadow. It's not like person thinks for 5 seconds "hell how he attacks me while eye is closed", reaction to pot is immediate.

MartiniDaniels

This might be also a desync... i noticed that I often "find" cloaked/crouched players, but they ignore me for several seconds despite they were moving and obviously not-afk. Also I saw today how same player came twice to me from same door in 2 seconds.. he walked first time, disappeared in air and then walked in again same way... desyncs are on awful level this patch.

Luede

snipezor wrote: »

Luede wrote: »

advice, dont rely exclusively on stealth. weak gank builds bring u nowhere.

While I appreciate the advice, I do run shields, heals, and even purge as well as cloak on my ranged magblade, who I wouldn't consider being a ganker.

I'm just asking about this because it would be nice to find out why it is that I have no advance notice that someone has just removed an ability from my bar for the next 12-15 seconds.

I don't believe I've ever seen a red eye above anyone other than myself, even when I see people with magelight actively running the orb around themselves. Maybe I need to have a look at UI/visual settings?

i never see the eye above other player, did someone say this should work?

Zevrro

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Also your own in-game indicator shows that you are detected, why you need additional one, idk...

It does not when detected by pots.

Then it is bug. Also all solo NB's I fight somehow know that I used pot because they immediately stop spamming cloak and if they had advantage after initial burst continue to fight without cloak or if odds look bad then tp to shadow. It's not like person thinks for 5 seconds "hell how he attacks me while eye is closed", reaction to pot is immediate.

Its not a bug. Detect pots don't directly break the players stealth they just allow you to see them in stealth which allows you to break it by damaging them.

Wayshuba

I think it may be just your team members that can see the eye. I used them a bit last night when capturing flags in IC. Five times I killed NB bombers off to the side waiting for their kills. The literally didn't seem to notice I saw them until I was on top of them.

HowlKimchi

snipezor wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Lol. Imagine whining on only reliable counter to most powerful PVP ablity in the game.
It doesn't even have declared 20 meters of detection. It's more like 12-13 meters. Imo they should buff duration and radius, now pot allows you to kill NB only if you manage to time everything right: survive and recover after NB burst, deal some damage to put NB to 60-70% HP. Then detection pot, cc, and short and correctly executed burst. Mess at least 1 thing and NB will just run away as soon as it will notice cloak spam is not working.

Oh, hi there. I see you meant to leave an enlightening post in an otherwise civil thread where someone (me) was just asking why an action works as it does (or doesn't, in this case) and instead needed to vent about how those big bad nightblades hurt your tender feelings.

I just want you to know that I understand, and that together we can work toward making you a tolerable individual.

Good on you. Some people here just love talking ***. Best ignore them.

fred4

I think your assumption is fair. No, you cannot see when someone from an opposing faction has used a detect potion. Yes, it is extremely nasty. As a fellow nightblade, I can only commiserate.

On the other hand, as a cloaking magicka nightblade you will frequently run across crouching players, cause they don't see you coming. Immovability / Detection / Magicka potions fit perfectly as your default potion, if you are ganking such players. It works both ways.

I do not know why detection potions work this way. I've played the game for 4 years and they always have. It's the intended design. I will say that I find them by far the best way to deal with other nightblades. I am not against them working the way they do. Perhaps they were designed as one of the ways to avoid stalemates between cloaking nightblades. Particularly, though, they are melee ganker's tools. There is no risk of alerting your victim before the gank.

I don't recall whether Magelight always put the blue alert thingy above people's heads. I think that was added at some point and detection potions have, thus far, escaped that treatment. As a magblade I am, however, not complaining. I suppose, now that I think of it, the functionality is slightly different. Detect potions have good range, but as soon as the nightblade moves out of range, they can't be seen anymore. With the shade or a speed build that could happen very quickly. Magelight, on the other hand, prevents the detected nightblade from cloaking for a few seconds. It's actually different functionality.

Judging when someone is detecting you and reacting appropriately is one of the hardest parts of playing a cloaking nightblade, especially a melee nightblade, but it can be learnt. Cloak is a privilege. It is, rightly, one of the most polarising skills in the game, because when it works it is very strong. Every other class needs to line-of-sight (LoS) for defense at times. If you predominantly play a cloaking nightblade, that's a skill you never tend to master.

I main a cloaking melee magblade, by the way. When someone manages to land a non-AOE attack on me, despite cloak, I switch strategy completely. Shield, Healing Ward, Fear or Shade, if available. Sometimes Undo, the psijic ult. Above all, though, LoS. You can't afford to ignore LoS completely as a magblade. You have to move in such a way that you are close to some obstacle, in case you need it. The ideal battlefield position for a magblade is to have LoS opportunities to one side, in case cloak fails, and open space to the other, allowing for plenty of direction change and unpredictability when cloak succeeds.

I should say that I play a speed build in CP and this is what works for me. I don't use the shade and I'm not a vampire. If you use the shade or Mist Form, you arguably have tools that make LoS less important than I'm making out.

fred4

An added thought. Magelight prevents you from cloaking. That means in addition to being seen, you also have no way to suppress DOTs anymore. To the best of my knowledge Cloak still suppresses DOT damage, even when someone has used a Detect potion. If you use Concealed, it also grants you a speed buff.

It's usually a mistake to keep cloaking when you are detected, but there are cases where it still helps. It might help you reach an LoS position faster and might help suppress DOTs, when you're there. If it's your only shadow skill, you might also throw in a cloak for the resistances. The more I think about it, the more I think Detect potions are just fine. Can you imagine not having the secondary benefits of Cloak for 15 seconds, especially in this DOT meta? That would be worse.

josh.lackey_ESO

Maybe someone spamming cloak drank a detect pot and you just couldn't see them.

Mayrael

HaruKamui wrote: »

Rianai wrote: »

The "red eye" indicator is only visible to the user of the potion.

"A visual effect will now appear over your character’s head when using Detection Potions, Magelight, or Expert Hunter to notify other players of your ability to see sneaking/invisible enemies."

from: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5372942#Comment_5372942

Yes it sound a bit confusing but it doesnt work on enemies, Ive tested it.

Royalthought

Maybe a bit sidebar. But detect pots offer a hard counter to cloak.

I always wondered what the reaction would be if counters existed for each defence. Shields, block, resistance, healing. Imagine being able to negate them for a garaunteed duration they you can with cloak.

Then onslaught happened. Now resistance is countered and people went nuts. Lol

jcm2606

Royalthought wrote: »

Maybe a bit sidebar. But detect pots offer a hard counter to cloak.

I always wondered what the reaction would be if counters existed for each defence. Shields, block, resistance, healing. Imagine being able to negate them for a garaunteed duration they you can with cloak.

Then onslaught happened. Now resistance is countered and people went nuts. Lol

Eh, one of these things (cloak) is not like the other's. Nothing else gives you the amount of advantages that cloak offers, in a single GCD:

• Negates all tracking and targeting.
• Suppresses any previously applied DoT's.
• Forces any in-flight projectiles to miss.
• Allows for 100% damage mitigation against anything except AoE's, while still allowing for full strength healing and magicka recovery.
• Gives the Nightblade absolute control over the fight when a viable counter (high radius AoE, detect pots) isn't used, allowing the Nightblade to disengage and reengage at will.

IMO cloak is hugely overloaded, and needs at least one of the above advantages addressed, because it's the strongest skill when a counter isn't used, and most counters (except high radius AoE's which aren't common, and detect pots) can be outplayed by a good Nightblade. A mid radius AoE (most AoE's are mid radius) can catch most Nightblade's who crutch on cloak, but a good Nightblade can easily bamboozle you with cloak, shade and/or dodge, getting out of that AoE and hence gaining control over the fight.

If stealth and slipperiness is meant to be NB's thing, that's fine and all, but a single skill shouldn't offer all of the above, while being spammable and while also not punishing the NB when pulled out of stealth.

jaime1982

Detect pots need a buff

Royalthought

jcm2606 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Maybe a bit sidebar. But detect pots offer a hard counter to cloak.

I always wondered what the reaction would be if counters existed for each defence. Shields, block, resistance, healing. Imagine being able to negate them for a garaunteed duration they you can with cloak.

Then onslaught happened. Now resistance is countered and people went nuts. Lol

Eh, one of these things (cloak) is not like the other's. Nothing else gives you the amount of advantages that cloak offers, in a single GCD:

• Negates all tracking and targeting.
• Suppresses any previously applied DoT's.
• Forces any in-flight projectiles to miss.
• Allows for 100% damage mitigation against anything except AoE's, while still allowing for full strength healing and magicka recovery.
• Gives the Nightblade absolute control over the fight when a viable counter (high radius AoE, detect pots) isn't used, allowing the Nightblade to disengage and reengage at will.

IMO cloak is hugely overloaded, and needs at least one of the above advantages addressed, because it's the strongest skill when a counter isn't used, and most counters (except high radius AoE's which aren't common, and detect pots) can be outplayed by a good Nightblade. A mid radius AoE (most AoE's are mid radius) can catch most Nightblade's who crutch on cloak, but a good Nightblade can easily bamboozle you with cloak, shade and/or dodge, getting out of that AoE and hence gaining control over the fight.

If stealth and slipperiness is meant to be NB's thing, that's fine and all, but a single skill shouldn't offer all of the above, while being spammable and while also not punishing the NB when pulled out of stealth.

Cloak has more counters than any signature class ability in the game. If you're facing an opponent and you don't counter them, how does that become the abilities fault?

"Strongest skill when a counter isn't used"

That's like saying turn evil is too powerful because if I don't use a counter (CC break) it prevents movement, attacks, dodgeroll, abilities, etc. lol

"Hey, let's judge abilities as if counters don't exist." Talk about a balancing strategy... wow

fred4

As a magblade I can tell you that Cloak is woefully ineffective when the opposing player or group is properly experienced in hunting you down. Your best bet, if you make it out alive, is not to go near them again.

Streaking sorcs can be deadly accurate in predicting where you've gone and knock you right back out of cloak. Haunting Curse and Power of the Light force you to LoS, lest they expose you at the wrong time. Overwhelming Surge templars using Sweeps and Toppling Charge are nightmarish. Using Magelight and Expert Hunter is an art that many don't seem to grasp, but these skills are devastating to a non-shading nightblade, when kept up constantly in a rotation. The warden ice ult is nasty, because it is easily confused with the far less deadly stamsorc Hurricane. Shalks and other AOEs must be avoided. The list goes on.

Most people either don't have a clue or they aren't determined enough to hunt down pesky nightblades. There is a marked difference when you run into people who are. I am not complaining. I agree that cloak is a very strong skill, but it's a very "digital" skill. It either totally works or it totally fails.

jcm2606

Royalthought wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Royalthought wrote: »

Maybe a bit sidebar. But detect pots offer a hard counter to cloak.

I always wondered what the reaction would be if counters existed for each defence. Shields, block, resistance, healing. Imagine being able to negate them for a garaunteed duration they you can with cloak.

Then onslaught happened. Now resistance is countered and people went nuts. Lol

Eh, one of these things (cloak) is not like the other's. Nothing else gives you the amount of advantages that cloak offers, in a single GCD:

• Negates all tracking and targeting.
• Suppresses any previously applied DoT's.
• Forces any in-flight projectiles to miss.
• Allows for 100% damage mitigation against anything except AoE's, while still allowing for full strength healing and magicka recovery.
• Gives the Nightblade absolute control over the fight when a viable counter (high radius AoE, detect pots) isn't used, allowing the Nightblade to disengage and reengage at will.

IMO cloak is hugely overloaded, and needs at least one of the above advantages addressed, because it's the strongest skill when a counter isn't used, and most counters (except high radius AoE's which aren't common, and detect pots) can be outplayed by a good Nightblade. A mid radius AoE (most AoE's are mid radius) can catch most Nightblade's who crutch on cloak, but a good Nightblade can easily bamboozle you with cloak, shade and/or dodge, getting out of that AoE and hence gaining control over the fight.

If stealth and slipperiness is meant to be NB's thing, that's fine and all, but a single skill shouldn't offer all of the above, while being spammable and while also not punishing the NB when pulled out of stealth.

Cloak has more counters than any signature class ability in the game. If you're facing an opponent and you don't counter them, how does that become the abilities fault?

"Strongest skill when a counter isn't used"

That's like saying turn evil is too powerful because if I don't use a counter (CC break) it prevents movement, attacks, dodgeroll, abilities, etc. lol

"Hey, let's judge abilities as if counters don't exist." Talk about a balancing strategy... wow

Except most counters aren't that effective against a good Nightblade. Detection skills are super expensive, have a short duration, and have a very small radius (only 6 meters). Most AoE's are mid radius at best, so you're left spamming them in an area that the Nightblade probably left ages ago. That leaves you with a few large AoE's (Steel Tornado, Caltrops, Hurricane, Power Extraction), which aren't available on all classes or specs, and detect pots, which only have like a 35% uptime and put every other pot you have on cooldown.

And, even when you don't use a counter against literally any other skill in the game, cloak is still the best. It has the effects of like 4 different skills that are or have been in the game (negates all targeting -> old passive dodge; forces any in-flight projectiles to miss -> Shimmering Shield, projectile reflect/absorption; 100% damage mitigation against anything except AoE's -> Mist Form, but better; absolute control over the fight -> Shade). A single skill shouldn't offer all of that in a single GCD, that's the literal definition of overloaded.