Sithis is God, right?

Rukia541

Is the sithis book canon, which explains things like even his opposite was made by him, a thought that he couldn't extinguish ? He can just think things and it becomes reality ? Is he even sentient by our standards? Is sithis the universe itself? So many questions and too many sources to read that maybe one of you know the answer who are more dedicated than me.

Froil

Sithis isn't a god, he (it) is the Void, primordial chaos and nothingness, a Padomaic force, as close to Padomay as anything in the ES universe can be. The Argonians don't "worship" Sithis, but they do accept and honor Sithis because chaos and change are an existential constant.
The Dark Brotherhood seems to revere Sithis in a pseudo-religious way, though.

Rohamad_Ali

Right .

RaddlemanNumber7

The sources conflict with one another. They are also incomplete. Many things remain a mystery.

I have found the only answer is to evolve my own explanation of Sithis and all that stems from Sithis, to make up my own story based on some of the lore, filling in the gaps myself where necessary. I have enjoyed doing it.

Rukia541 wrote: »

his opposite was made by him, a thought that he couldn't extinguish ?

I would say yes.

He can just think things and it becomes reality ?

Yes, that is the way things are with gods. Thought becomes reality.

Is he even sentient by our standards?

I would say no.

Is sithis the universe itself?

Sithis is more than the Aurbis, the in-game universe. In my own story Sithis is limitless, without any beginning as well as without end. I think it is also true that the in-game universe is more than Sithis, in that it's own gods have made it more stable and more complex.

So many questions and too many sources to read.

This sounds like it is the beginning of a long journey for you. I hope you enjoy it as much as I have.

ArchMikem

Try not to make too much sense of it all, you'll begin to tread into religious fanaticism territory. The most sane explanation to it all is the following two words.

Everything is.

Sithis is just a specific personification of everything.

Dusk_Coven

After playing through Murkmire, my impression of Murkmire-Argonian-Sithis is that it is a sort of representation/reminder of impermanency.

Getting him married to the Dark Mother personifies it into a him and lets him be dragged into the cult of the Dark Brotherhood even though they more closely interact with the Dark Mother -- for example, the ritual to start a sacrament calls the Dark Mother, and not really Sithis. My impression is that he's so far in the background in the Dark Brotherhood that I don't feel he's really relevant there -- except he apparently sends ghosts to punish traitors to the Dark Brotherhood (why?).

So there are two flavours of Sithis, if you like.

NordJitsu

There are theories that Sithis is the Godhead, or the Dreamer who created the Aurbis (universe), but not confirmed.

Whatever it is, sithis is an older and more terrifying power than the mere Deadra.

Benzux

NordJitsu wrote: »

There are theories that Sithis is the Godhead, or the Dreamer who created the Aurbis (universe), but not confirmed.

Whatever it is, sithis is an older and more terrifying power than the mere Deadra.

The Godhead is just something from Kirkbride's ramblings though, isn't it? So it wouldn't be considered canon.

Unless it appears in the 36 sermons, in which case it's Vivec's ramblings that stemmed from Kirkbride's ramblings - which doesn't really give it much more "proof".

storm105

NordJitsu wrote: »

There are theories that Sithis is the Godhead, or the Dreamer who created the Aurbis (universe), but not confirmed.

Whatever it is, sithis is an older and more terrifying power than the mere Deadra.

And those theories shouldn't be taken seriously at all because sithis is equal to Anu. If anything Satakal is the GodHead. He's literally the personification of the whole universe

RaddlemanNumber7

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

The sources conflict with one another. They are also incomplete. Many things remain a mystery.

I have found the only answer is to evolve my own explanation of Sithis and all that stems from Sithis, to make up my own story based on some of the lore, filling in the gaps myself where necessary. I have enjoyed doing it.

Rukia541 wrote: »

his opposite was made by him, a thought that he couldn't extinguish ?

I would say yes.

He can just think things and it becomes reality ?

Yes, that is the way things are with gods. Thought becomes reality.

Is he even sentient by our standards?

I would say no.

Is sithis the universe itself?

Sithis is more than the Aurbis, the in-game universe. In my own story Sithis is limitless, without any beginning as well as without end. I think it is also true that the in-game universe is more than Sithis, in that it's own gods have made it more stable and more complex.

So many questions and too many sources to read.

This sounds like it is the beginning of a long journey for you. I hope you enjoy it as much as I have.

I forgot to answer the question in the title, "Is Sithis god?"
Yes, but mostly no. Sithis fulfils a couple of godly roles - Sithis is the first creator, and also the ultimate destruction of all things created. Sithis doesn't fulfil any of the other roles of god. In my own story, from the available options in the lore, I have chosen that inside the Aurbis in the Second Era "the Dreamer" is god, giving direction and purpose to the Aurbis, creating mortals, performing divine intervention, knowing everything, all that stuff. I see the Dreamer as combining all the Divines - one god, many faces. Also that Lorkhan ascended to become the Dreamer at the conclusion of the Dawn era. It works for me.

NordJitsu

Benzux wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

There are theories that Sithis is the Godhead, or the Dreamer who created the Aurbis (universe), but not confirmed.

Whatever it is, sithis is an older and more terrifying power than the mere Deadra.

The Godhead is just something from Kirkbride's ramblings though, isn't it? So it wouldn't be considered canon.

Unless it appears in the 36 sermons, in which case it's Vivec's ramblings that stemmed from Kirkbride's ramblings - which doesn't really give it much more "proof".

It’s part of the amaranth concept, which is mentioned in game in ESO. They’re not “ramblings” just because the concepts originated with a former writer/developer.

Benzux

NordJitsu wrote: »

Benzux wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

There are theories that Sithis is the Godhead, or the Dreamer who created the Aurbis (universe), but not confirmed.

Whatever it is, sithis is an older and more terrifying power than the mere Deadra.

The Godhead is just something from Kirkbride's ramblings though, isn't it? So it wouldn't be considered canon.

Unless it appears in the 36 sermons, in which case it's Vivec's ramblings that stemmed from Kirkbride's ramblings - which doesn't really give it much more "proof".

It’s part of the amaranth concept, which is mentioned in game in ESO. They’re not “ramblings” just because the concepts originated with a former writer/developer.

Where is the amaranth mentioned? I'm curious now.
And I always take anything associated with Kirkbride with a grain of salt. He may have given us some cool lore in the past to help make the Elder Scrolls universe unique among other fantasy universes, but a lot of the guy's work is just "too much", and doesn't fit into the Lore at all. And of course, anything he's written after he resigned is purely fanfiction - thankfully.

psychotrip

Rukia541 wrote: »

Is the sithis book canon, which explains things like even his opposite was made by him, a thought that he couldn't extinguish ? He can just think things and it becomes reality ? Is he even sentient by our standards? Is sithis the universe itself? So many questions and too many sources to read that maybe one of you know the answer who are more dedicated than me.

The best way to think of Sithis is that he's an idea, and in the Elder Scrolls universe, ideas can take on a life of their own.

Sithis is a representation of the void. All that cold empty nothingness outside of nirn, between realms of oblivion and surrounded by aetherius (or possibly surrounding aetherius depending on how you look at it)

What does that mean for us? Well, Sithis expresses itself as a force of entropy. The bad kind of change. So much destructive, raw, un-guided change that nothing can actually happen. Its interesting how too much order and too much chaos basically looks like the same thing, but we're getting off track.

So Sithis isn't a daedra or god or anything. More like a specific flavor of Padomay (the primordial force of chaos). As such, several daedra are particularly keen on "him". Daedra are spirits that lean toward the padomaic side of things, but beings like Sheogorath and Mephala are especially in line with the complete anarchic nihilism of Sithis.

So how does this all translate into worship? Well we know based on both the Morag Tong and the Dark Brotherhood that the most common way to worship Sithis is by killing people. But why?

Well here's how I always look at it: Sithis is basically a reminder that in the end nothing matters. Everything breaks down, society falls apart. The universe is being lead by blind and deaf gods too weak or shortsided to do anything meaningful. There is no omnipotent force guiding reality toward any coherent purpose. Mortals are doomed to live, die, and repeat without ever retaining any of their knowledge, experiences or relationships.

So *** it.

Reality has no logic, so revel in the illogical (Sheogorath), society and relationships are illusions, so break them down (Mephala), embrace the chaos, find pleasure the torment of others because that's all there is (the dark brotherhood).

Sithis may not be a god, but "he" is one of the scariest concepts in the Elder Scrolls universe in my opinion. "He" represents everything living creatures are trying to deny and fight back against. "He's" the enemy of our search for meaning, our desire for progress.

NordJitsu

Benzux wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Benzux wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

There are theories that Sithis is the Godhead, or the Dreamer who created the Aurbis (universe), but not confirmed.

Whatever it is, sithis is an older and more terrifying power than the mere Deadra.

The Godhead is just something from Kirkbride's ramblings though, isn't it? So it wouldn't be considered canon.

Unless it appears in the 36 sermons, in which case it's Vivec's ramblings that stemmed from Kirkbride's ramblings - which doesn't really give it much more "proof".

It’s part of the amaranth concept, which is mentioned in game in ESO. They’re not “ramblings” just because the concepts originated with a former writer/developer.

Where is the amaranth mentioned? I'm curious now.
And I always take anything associated with Kirkbride with a grain of salt. He may have given us some cool lore in the past to help make the Elder Scrolls universe unique among other fantasy universes, but a lot of the guy's work is just "too much", and doesn't fit into the Lore at all. And of course, anything he's written after he resigned is purely fanfiction - thankfully.

That’s a pretty limited and close minded way of thinking imo. A LOT of his “fan fiction” has later been explicitly recognized in game. Amaranth is just one example, which is mentioned in the secret 37th sermon, which was written by Lawrence and a lot of the lore community took as an acknowledgement of the concept being cannon.

I’m not aware of anything that Kirkbride wrote that doesn’t fit with lore in game today. I actually agree that some of his non-in-game writing is over the top (the stuff he wrote after leaving).

But when that stuff gets recognized in game I think it is legit. And most of his stuff was written while he was an employee and he basically created the metaphysics of the ES universe.

RaddlemanNumber7

I think this is also an in-game confirmation that Amaranth is a part of TES lore:



It certainly shows the effect of reading Kirkbride's out-of-game stuff

Rukia541

Cool thx for replies, just wanted to let ya know I read them lol. I mostly lurk.

Aristocles22

TL;DR: Sithis isn't God, but he may have been the first being created by the Godhead.

To put it simply (and please take some of this with a grain of salt, as much of the deeper lore in TES is questionable), the most powerful being in the Elder Scrolls universe is the godhead. The games all take place in a dream of the godhead, although this doesn't mean they aren't real. The paradox is that everything in TES is both real and a dream at the same time. It's also said to be a "song" as well. To be able to comprehend and deal with the paradox of being both real and a part of a dream, one has to achieve a state called CHIM (rhymes with chime), but one risks zero-summing if one cannot reconcile the contradiction, leading to one being wiped from existence. Or having ever existed, possibly. Reaching Amaranth would require that a person in TES not only achieve CHIM, but to ascend farther and become a godhead oneself, with one's own reality generated by a dream. This is rather obscure and has only been hinted at in-game.

As for Sithis, he is what's left of Padomay after fighting with Anu. To sum it up, the godhead imagined a single original idea, this idea split into two halves after contemplating itself. These halves were known as Anu and Padomay, identified as brothers. Their "interplay" created a third being called Nir, who is identified as female. She made a number of worlds (12, I think?), about which there are few details. Nir fell in love with Anu, and this made Padomay jealous. The two brothers fought each other at least twice, and Padomay mortally injured Nir in the process and shattered her worlds, the remains of two of which were combined by Anu to form Nirn. Anu beat Padomay off, sending him to the void. Before this happened, Anu and Padomay ripped parts off of each other, and those parts became the Magna Ge (purely Anuic), Aedra (mostly Anuic with some Padomaic influence), Daedra (purely Padomaic), and Lorkhan (not sure what he is, probably half and half). Losing bits of themselves caused a change in the brothers, and Anu changed to Anuiel, while Padomay was turned into Sithis. Also keep in mind that how Lorkhan fits into any of this is something of a mystery too. He's a trickster god based off of a similar Indo-European mythological figure known to the Greeks as Prometheus and as Loki to the Norse, hence the similar name "Lorkhan" (also called Shor or Shezarr).

There may be some contradictions in the lore, but it also appears that Sithis was the creator of the original material universe (the godhead notwithstanding), which was a chaotic mess until Nir changed it into a series of worlds, which Sithis wrecked and Anu salvaged to form Nirn, named after her. The remains of Nir's 12 worlds and their survivors (the Elhnofey and the Hist) became the inhabitants of Nirn. It may be the case that Sithis was the original idea which the godhead dreamed up, and that Anu split off from him. In Sithis' eyes, the material universe was a mistake, which is consistent with a real-life philosophy (or religion, it is hard to say) known today as Gnosticism, a name given to it by historians millennia after most people stopped following it.

Benzux

NordJitsu wrote: »

Benzux wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Benzux wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

There are theories that Sithis is the Godhead, or the Dreamer who created the Aurbis (universe), but not confirmed.

Whatever it is, sithis is an older and more terrifying power than the mere Deadra.

The Godhead is just something from Kirkbride's ramblings though, isn't it? So it wouldn't be considered canon.

Unless it appears in the 36 sermons, in which case it's Vivec's ramblings that stemmed from Kirkbride's ramblings - which doesn't really give it much more "proof".

It’s part of the amaranth concept, which is mentioned in game in ESO. They’re not “ramblings” just because the concepts originated with a former writer/developer.

Where is the amaranth mentioned? I'm curious now.
And I always take anything associated with Kirkbride with a grain of salt. He may have given us some cool lore in the past to help make the Elder Scrolls universe unique among other fantasy universes, but a lot of the guy's work is just "too much", and doesn't fit into the Lore at all. And of course, anything he's written after he resigned is purely fanfiction - thankfully.

That’s a pretty limited and close minded way of thinking imo. A LOT of his “fan fiction” has later been explicitly recognized in game. Amaranth is just one example, which is mentioned in the secret 37th sermon, which was written by Lawrence and a lot of the lore community took as an acknowledgement of the concept being cannon.

I’m not aware of anything that Kirkbride wrote that doesn’t fit with lore in game today. I actually agree that some of his non-in-game writing is over the top (the stuff he wrote after leaving).

But when that stuff gets recognized in game I think it is legit. And most of his stuff was written while he was an employee and he basically created the metaphysics of the ES universe.

Ah, right, the 37th Sermon. I forgot about it. It's a pretty interesting nod towards Kirkbride, but I'm not so hasty as to accept everything he's written as canon because it's referenced in ESO. The sermons are written by Vivec, after all, known for being the mysterious poet that he is. Even I don't take everything written in the previous 36 sermons as 100% truth.

As I mentioned, I respect Kirkbride for his role in making the ES universe interesting, though I also cannot give him all the credit; there are a lot of other writers responsible for making TES awesome. With his work being "too much", I was mainly talking about his post-resigning stuff - perhaps should have clarified that more - but some of the metaphysics and such feel a bit "out of place". I can get what the guy was going for, but at times it seems as if he tried a bit too hard at making something complicated. The concepts of Anu and Phadomay I can live with, but the more complicated aspects of CHIM seem to go a little overboard (though I do find the concept of CHIM, as well as Mantling other beings as a way to achieve it, interesting), for example.
Of course, I don't instantly disregard something as "non-canon" simply because it feels out of place - if that something is found in-game. However, I do believe that we should not take everything within TES lore at face value, even from Gods of Godlike beings. Just because Vivec wrote about something mortals couldn't comprehend in his sermons should we accept it as it is. Instead, I see things like that (The 36 Sermons, as well as Mankar Camoran's writings) as something that not even the in-universe writers (in this case, Vivec and Camoran) fully understood themselves.

And I will also add that due to the nature of Kirkbride's work, I have a "personal dislike" of him and his writings, which affects my opinions on these matters. Unfortunately, humans are flawed, illogical beings, so a personal opinion like that will always affect the things we do and the way we think.

Aristocles22

Even ignoring Kirkbride's material and the godhead, what is clear is that at one point, there was a singular being/idea in the universe, regardless of whether said universe was a dream. This being split into Anu and Padomay, and they fought, breaking off parts of themselves to form the Aedra, Daedra, Magna-Ge, and whatever Lorkhan is. What remained of Anu and Padomay became Anuiel and Sithis.

That's glossing over many details I mentioned in my much longer post, but that's the origin of Sithis right there.

Jaimeh

I've always taken Sithis to be an expression of Padomay, the negative part of the universe, while Anu is the positive. When I say negative, I don't mean evil, just null, nothing can be created from it. I think of it like Anu/Padomay being two opposing primordial forces that keep everything in balance, and all things that came after them, are just expressions of them with increasing agency (and arguably, decreasing power). God in the creator sense, that has motives and reasons, and can create realms and life within them, would fit more Aedra and Daedra, so further down chronologically from Sithis. God in the 'came-before-everything, Iluvatar-like) sense would be even before Sithis, or Anu and Padomay, and would be the supposed 'dreamer' entity.

Aristocles22

Confusingly, Sithis (or Padomay) is said to be the creator of the material universe, but that this was a mistake on his part. The padomaic-descended Daedra are said to only be able to imitate, not create things themselves. Even the planes of Oblivion are warped imitations of what was created on Nirn. Making matters more confusing is that Anu isn't said to be the creator, yet he (and the Aedra) care about creation, while the Daedra like to mess around with it for their own purposes, but they didn't make it. Also confusing is that the Aedra are only only part Anuic in their origin, with some of Padomay's essence in them. The only purely Anuic entities beside Anu (or Anuiel, as he is known now) are the Magna-Ge. The Magna-Ge helped created Nirn, but they left when they realized that this would weaken them and bind them to the world, rendering them mortal and perhaps even semi-comatose like the Aedra supposedly are, at least according to some (maybe unreliable) sources. Or at least, the eight (now nine) divines are said to spend most of their time in a comatose state. What that means for a god is uncertain, of course. It could be that being in a coma is necessary for the Aedra to influence Nirn, much like the dreamer has to remain dreaming in order for anything in The Elder Scrolls setting to continue to exist.

So, basically, there's a lot left to interpretation, a lot which doesn't make sense on the face of it, and a lot of material which might not even be considered canon anymore, if it ever was.

Deathlord92

Hail Sithis ✋

Aramithius

Aristocles22 wrote: »

Confusingly, Sithis (or Padomay) is said to be the creator of the material universe, but that this was a mistake on his part.

What sources claim that it was a mistake by Padomay? That's not a perspective I've seen, so I'm a little curious.

Aristocles22 wrote: »

Even the planes of Oblivion are warped imitations of what was created on Nirn.

Some are, not all.

Aristocles22 wrote: »

Also confusing is that the Aedra are only only part Anuic in their origin, with some of Padomay's essence in them. The only purely Anuic entities beside Anu (or Anuiel, as he is known now) are the Magna-Ge. The Magna-Ge helped created Nirn, but they left when they realized that this would weaken them and bind them to the world, rendering them mortal and perhaps even semi-comatose like the Aedra supposedly are, at least according to some (maybe unreliable) sources.

That's if you take the Anuad literally. Trying to divide the Aedra and Daedra along Anuic/Padomaic lines is never a clean exercise.

Aristocles22 wrote: »

So, basically, there's a lot left to interpretation, a lot which doesn't make sense on the face of it, and a lot of material which might not even be considered canon anymore, if it ever was.

Think of it less as "canon/not canon" but "true/false", if that makes it any easier to reason through.

Aideian

I don't think you'll get a solid answer because there's a lot of contradictions in the lore, for all we know the all maker which is the deity that the skaal worship or possibly the atmorans original god could be god depending on what your interpretation of what god is. My theory on sithis however is that sithis is Lorkhan I only say this because there's a statue in oblivion of him in physical form as a skeleton with a robe on and his heart ripped out however that could just be a coincidence since sithis is literally nothing but void, or is he...

Sinlar

Sithis is an interpretation of the concept of the Ouroboros.
It would like all beings to believe that it is all existence.
It really is only the manifestation of the physical within time and space.
Questioning it's totality leads to interesting contemplation's of the transcendence of those physical aspects and limitations.
A clearer vision of the true scope of the Aurbis.

For this one at least.

jlmurra2

Benzux wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

There are theories that Sithis is the Godhead, or the Dreamer who created the Aurbis (universe), but not confirmed.

Whatever it is, sithis is an older and more terrifying power than the mere Deadra.

The Godhead is just something from Kirkbride's ramblings though, isn't it? So it wouldn't be considered canon.

Unless it appears in the 36 sermons, in which case it's Vivec's ramblings that stemmed from Kirkbride's ramblings - which doesn't really give it much more "proof".

Godhead is mentioned in this lorebook from Skyrim:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Dragonborn:Black_Book:_Waking_Dreams_(book)

"The eyes, once bleached by falling stars of utmost revelation, will forever see the faint insight drawn by the overwhelming question, as only the True Enquiry shapes the edge of thought. The rest is vulgar fiction, attempts to impose order on the consensus mantlings of an uncaring godhead. First,"