No, you want lightning staff both for PvE and PvP.and I imagine fire and fire glyph for PvP although I don't PvP so others can better speak to what to do with staffs in that case.
I've looked into how the HA damage scales with spell damage, and the results are... not at all what I expected.
In fact, it scales in a very strange way.
For a first test, I took a gold CP160 lightning staff and a white lvl1 lightning staff, heavy attacking a dummy.
No abilities and no potions were used. No proc sets were used, either.
Both staves had a weakening enchant on them (so it would not affect damage output), Precise trait.
CP allocation was reasonably representative of a typical PvE DD build.
I looked at the damage inflicted by the final non-crit tick of a fully-charged HA:
- White lvl1 staff, 181 SD, 34700 max magicka: 1881 damage
- Gold CP160 staff, 1441 SD, 34700 max magicka: 2561 damage
Clearly, the attack damage scales extremely poorly with spell damage.
But what about the UI/UU buffs to HA damage? Again, let's look at the final non-crit tick:
- White lvl1 staff, 181 SD, 34190 max magicka: 1844 unbuffed damage
- White lvl1 staff, 181 SD, 34190 max magicka: 3328 UU buffed damage
- White lvl1 staff, 181 SD, 33679 max magicka: 4787 UI+UU buffed damage
- Gold CP160 staff, 1441 SD, 34190 max magicka: 2520 unbuffed damage
- Gold CP160 staff, 1441 SD, 34190 max magicka: 4004 UU buffed damage
- Gold CP160 staff, 1441 SD, 34190 max magicka: 5489 UI+UU buffed damage
This confirms my earlier theory that the UI/UU damage buffs are a CONSTANT value not subject to any scaling.
(Edit: to clarify, it does not scale with offensive stats, but DOES scale with the relevant Champion Point bonuses. Not relevant for no-CP PvP of course.)
So we have a constant non-scaled damage buff and base attack damage which scales exceptionally poorly with spell damage.
Ok, so let's compare the numbers with some higher spell damage, using the gold CP160 staff - again looking at the final non-crit tick:
- 1441 SD, 33679 max magicka, UI+UU buffs active: 5463 damage (3x infused jewelry with stam regen enchant)
- 2342 SD, 33679 max magicka, UI+UU buffs active: 5910 damage (3x infused with spell damage enchant)
Conclusion: for PvP use of an UI+UU heavy attack build, feel free to use as many STAMINA regen glyphs on your jewelry as you like!
Even with 3x STAMINA regen glyph, your damage output will drop by only a few %, but your survivability will go WAY up. Of course this is somewhat counterbalanced by the fact that heals do scale with spell damage... which is less of an issue if you just shieldstack
And dump the UU set for IA if you really want to max staff HA damage. Use an infused Maelstrom lightning staff back bar and charged UI staff front bar. Both lightning with shock glyph for PvE and I imagine fire and fire glyph for PvP although I don't PvP so others can better speak to what to do with staffs in that case.
True, using IA would be better, but being a trials set it's "somewhat" less accessible than UI/UU - the latter 2 you can even farm solo if you are so inclined (yes, even Blackheart Haven).
Sure, mix and match mag + stam recovery glyphs as needed?RiskyChalice863 wrote: »My thought is that you could just run magicka recovery glyphs still on the jewelry with a Nightblade. That'd give you around 1500 recovery--which is just a ton for this kind of build (maybe more than is necessary, I'd have to test)--without giving up much damage.
True. But with UU you get 2k extra stamina, and the cheapest stamina abilities are about 2.5k base cost, so it comes out to about the same end result.RiskyChalice863 wrote: »IA (...) And it's more convenient to use, since you don't have to use a stamina ability to proc.
Here's a complete description of a working non-werewolf method:RiskyChalice863 wrote: »Just out of curiosity, how could one solo Blackheart Haven?
Sure, mix and match mag + stam recovery glyphs as needed?RiskyChalice863 wrote: »My thought is that you could just run magicka recovery glyphs still on the jewelry with a Nightblade. That'd give you around 1500 recovery--which is just a ton for this kind of build (maybe more than is necessary, I'd have to test)--without giving up much damage.
Maybe 1 mag regen, 1 stam regen and 1 spell damage glyph?True. But with UU you get 2k extra stamina, and the cheapest stamina abilities are about 2.5k base cost, so it comes out to about the same end result.RiskyChalice863 wrote: »IA (...) And it's more convenient to use, since you don't have to use a stamina ability to proc.Here's a complete description of a working non-werewolf method:RiskyChalice863 wrote: »Just out of curiosity, how could one solo Blackheart Haven?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6322424/#Comment_6322424
That's a L2P issue.RiskyChalice863 wrote: »Particularly when someone is low health and I want to finish them, so I get greedy and don't take a global cooldown to proc UU but then I no longer have the damage to finish the person.
It seems you don't quite grasp how this build functions.Think the point alot of you are forgetting is you can build exceptionally tanky and put out a decent/ton of damage without stat investment in damage. You can run 35k health with Tourgs pact heavy and max health/magicka regen food and still put out massive damage numbers.
I was thinking in terms of the Sorc, where Hurricane lasts 15 seconds - so even if you don't recast it early, you will still have decent uptime on the UU buff in longer fights.That's a L2P issue.RiskyChalice863 wrote: »Particularly when someone is low health and I want to finish them, so I get greedy and don't take a global cooldown to proc UU but then I no longer have the damage to finish the person.
CC enemy on cooldown, that should go without saying. This isn't a burst build so you aren't using CC to create an offensive window in the "traditional" sense, but to drain the enemy's resources.
On classes with a good magicka execute, use it. It can be especially devastating on a Sorc, since you can cast Wrath and then immediately start a HA.
Even better, Curse then Wrath then HA. Not quite a proper burst, but that's still a lot of damage in a short time.
Try putting more pressure on the enemy with DoTs. If you can get them to purge early, that's even better.
On a Templar, maybe try using a poison instead of a weapon enchant, since you don't need Concussion to proc Off Balance.
It seems you don't quite grasp how this build functions.Think the point alot of you are forgetting is you can build exceptionally tanky and put out a decent/ton of damage without stat investment in damage. You can run 35k health with Tourgs pact heavy and max health/magicka regen food and still put out massive damage numbers.
None of the things you have mentioned are even remotely applicable to this build.
The strength of this build comes from the fact that your primary means of dealing damage is also your primary means of magicka sustain.
And because of the high sustain, the "tankiness" of this build comes from shieldstacking and heals, not from raw HP and recovery.
This build plays VERY differently from "typical" PvP builds, and the logic that applies to "normal" builds ceases to be valid here.
PvP isn't exactly a cheap pursuit - certainly not at a high enough level.RiskyChalice863 wrote: »But I don’t tend to use poisons a lot, just because of the cost to constantly use them.
PvP isn't exactly a cheap pursuit - certainly not at a high enough level.RiskyChalice863 wrote: »But I don’t tend to use poisons a lot, just because of the cost to constantly use them.
Armor does not degrade, but generally you do need to invest more into potions and poisons. Alchemy 4x crafting passive is a must (on at least 1 character).
PvP and endgame PvE has this in common, both involve gulping down potions more or less on cooldown.
And if you use the golden vendor a lot, then using poisons is still quite cost-effective in the long run (more kills = more AP).
BTW, are you applying Defile to the enemies? You should be.
Depends on type of staff. It's also affected by CP allocation.FrancisCrawford wrote: »1. How much magicka does a heavy attack normally return?
Doubled.FrancisCrawford wrote: »2. How is that increased by off-balance?
5 seconds.FrancisCrawford wrote: »4. What is the current duration of off-balance?
15 seconds, IIRC. So you can get up to 25% uptime on off-balance on bosses (5s effect + 15s immunity).FrancisCrawford wrote: »5. What is the current duration of boss off-balance immunity?
As far as I know, that would be correct.FrancisCrawford wrote: »6. Only bosses get off-balance immunity, correct?
5 seconds.FrancisCrawford wrote: »4. What is the current duration of off-balance?
It seems you don't quite grasp how this build functions.Think the point alot of you are forgetting is you can build exceptionally tanky and put out a decent/ton of damage without stat investment in damage. You can run 35k health with Tourgs pact heavy and max health/magicka regen food and still put out massive damage numbers.
None of the things you have mentioned are even remotely applicable to this build.
The strength of this build comes from the fact that your primary means of dealing damage is also your primary means of magicka sustain.
And because of the high sustain, the "tankiness" of this build comes from shieldstacking and heals, not from raw HP and recovery.
This build plays VERY differently from "typical" PvP builds, and the logic that applies to "normal" builds ceases to be valid here.
FrancisCrawford wrote: »Could somebody please remind of some basic numbers and so on here?
1. How much magicka does a heavy attack normally return?
2. How is that increased by off-balance?
3. Off-balance increases damage via Exploiter and ... what else? (It seemed like there was a 50%ish total damage increase suggested above, and I don't know why.)
4. What is the current duration of off-balance?
5. What is the current duration of boss off-balance immunity?
6. Only bosses get off-balance immunity, correct?
Thanks!
Oh yes, it should be excellent to use for XvX, mostly just spam HA and shields while running in an appropriate direction.I would hate to fight XvX against the build you're running. Sounds like a ridiculous amount of damage kinda quick. Especially off balance and defiled.
Thanks! It's kinda hard to keep track of all the changesde_la_Dude wrote: »This was increased to 7s in v5.1.5.
Hmm, you are probably right.RiskyChalice863 wrote: »However, I believe damage bonuses are additive not multiplicative. So if you had a 50% damage boost from Molten Armaments and a 70% damage boost from off balance, you’d have a total of a 120% damage boost.
Wouldn't IA be better than Torugs? It just does so much. Or would most of it's buffs only apply to PvE? I don't PvP but for PvE it seems like it should be no comparison on which is better for a heavy attack build.
RiskyChalice863 wrote: »I've looked into how the HA damage scales with spell damage, and the results are... not at all what I expected.
In fact, it scales in a very strange way.
For a first test, I took a gold CP160 lightning staff and a white lvl1 lightning staff, heavy attacking a dummy.
No abilities and no potions were used. No proc sets were used, either.
Both staves had a weakening enchant on them (so it would not affect damage output), Precise trait.
CP allocation was reasonably representative of a typical PvE DD build.
I looked at the damage inflicted by the final non-crit tick of a fully-charged HA:
- White lvl1 staff, 181 SD, 34700 max magicka: 1881 damage
- Gold CP160 staff, 1441 SD, 34700 max magicka: 2561 damage
Clearly, the attack damage scales extremely poorly with spell damage.
But what about the UI/UU buffs to HA damage? Again, let's look at the final non-crit tick:
- White lvl1 staff, 181 SD, 34190 max magicka: 1844 unbuffed damage
- White lvl1 staff, 181 SD, 34190 max magicka: 3328 UU buffed damage
- White lvl1 staff, 181 SD, 33679 max magicka: 4787 UI+UU buffed damage
- Gold CP160 staff, 1441 SD, 34190 max magicka: 2520 unbuffed damage
- Gold CP160 staff, 1441 SD, 34190 max magicka: 4004 UU buffed damage
- Gold CP160 staff, 1441 SD, 34190 max magicka: 5489 UI+UU buffed damage
This confirms my earlier theory that the UI/UU damage buffs are a CONSTANT value not subject to any scaling.
(Edit: to clarify, it does not scale with offensive stats, but DOES scale with the relevant Champion Point bonuses. Not relevant for no-CP PvP of course.)
So we have a constant non-scaled damage buff and base attack damage which scales exceptionally poorly with spell damage.
Ok, so let's compare the numbers with some higher spell damage, using the gold CP160 staff - again looking at the final non-crit tick:
- 1441 SD, 33679 max magicka, UI+UU buffs active: 5463 damage (3x infused jewelry with stam regen enchant)
- 2342 SD, 33679 max magicka, UI+UU buffs active: 5910 damage (3x infused with spell damage enchant)
Conclusion: for PvP use of an UI+UU heavy attack build, feel free to use as many STAMINA regen glyphs on your jewelry as you like!
Even with 3x STAMINA regen glyph, your damage output will drop by only a few %, but your survivability will go WAY up. Of course this is somewhat counterbalanced by the fact that heals do scale with spell damage... which is less of an issue if you just shieldstack
Thank you for the testing! I'd not done any in-game testing on my UU/UI build for this particular issue, but I had seen a similarly surprisingly low effect of spell damage when I theorycrafted the build on the UESP Build Editor. I definitely think it's right that spell damage scales awfully for this build. The one thing that may stop me from going full stam regen enchants, though, is the last thing you mentioned: The fact that heals scale with spell damage. And while you can shieldstack, your magicka isn't actually all that high with the build either, since you've only got two magicka bonuses on the UU/UI sets. So I think it's basically a question of what would help the defense of the build more: more stamina regen or better heals. If they're roughly even, then you'd still want the spell damage, just because you'd get a slight bit more damage too. But if the stamina regen is really preferable for defense (which I think it may be, particularly in BGs where stamina sustain is really tough on a magicka character), then it's better to go with the stamina regen.
I'm also tinkering with doing a version of this on a Nightblade. The idea would be to proc UU with Leeching Strikes (similar to proccing with Restoring Focus on a Templar), and then use cloak + concealed weapon to proc off balance. One problem with that is that you need a decent bit of magicka recovery to really liberally use cloak, and I'd need cloak for my damage combo and to get out of trouble. So I suspect even on a heavy attack build you couldn't get away with running the Nightblade with bad recovery. My thought is that you could just run magicka recovery glyphs still on the jewelry with a Nightblade. That'd give you around 1500 recovery--which is just a ton for this kind of build (maybe more than is necessary, I'd have to test)--without giving up much damage.
I've been recommending another build earlier in this thread.
Off-balance is a debuff you definitely do not want to miss in a heavy attack build. It doubles the resources you gain, and gives 70% more heavy attack damage without a cooldown on players +10% from exploiter passive in cp pvp, both values that boost the flat bonuses from the Maelstrom Staff and UI and a free ranged stun. Using both UU and UU was not ideal because it took away the chance of building for a charged trait for a higher guarantee of off-balance upfront and gave you more stamina than you actually needed to have.
Just my view, based on the practice of pvping for roughly 8 months on heavy attack dk builds. I use chudan+torugs+UI with defending resto and charged vMA lightning staff on front bar with unstable wall this patch, and it is very successful because players underestimate the impact of Off-Balance and standing in the unstable wall.
I've been recommending another build earlier in this thread.
Off-balance is a debuff you definitely do not want to miss in a heavy attack build. It doubles the resources you gain, and gives 70% more heavy attack damage without a cooldown on players +10% from exploiter passive in cp pvp, both values that boost the flat bonuses from the Maelstrom Staff and UI and a free ranged stun. Using both UU and UU was not ideal because it took away the chance of building for a charged trait for a higher guarantee of off-balance upfront and gave you more stamina than you actually needed to have.
Just my view, based on the practice of pvping for roughly 8 months on heavy attack dk builds. I use chudan+torugs+UI with defending resto and charged vMA lightning staff on front bar with unstable wall this patch, and it is very successful because players underestimate the impact of Off-Balance and standing in the unstable wall.