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SPOILER [Murkmire main quest] "plot twist" too sudden?

Dusk_Coven
Dusk_Coven
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First we don't even know what the Remnant of Argon is. But as soon as Kassandra grabs the staff, suddenly everyone is certain it can be used as a weapon of mass destruction or something similarly nefarious. Except it can't?
At that point we don't really know anything about Kassandra's motives so how did we suddenly cast her as another power-crazed villain?

And her ties to the Blackguards don't really make sense either. We had to obtain things from them and we killed dozens... but all this time they would have known she was working with them?
  • LickingHistSap
    LickingHistSap
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    Kassandra only grabs the staff after the vision reveals the purpose of the Remnant of Argon, meaning everyone knows what it is and what it does.

    Kassandra isn't attempting to use it as a weapon of mass destruction, she's trying to use the spirits of Argonians within the Remnant to forcibly connect herself to the Hist Trees, as she's been fairly open about her motivations for collecting relics in the past quests.
  • Dusk_Coven
    Dusk_Coven
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    Kassandra isn't attempting to use it as a weapon of mass destruction, she's trying to use the spirits of Argonians within the Remnant to forcibly connect herself to the Hist Trees, as she's been fairly open about her motivations for collecting relics in the past quests.

    Then why the big panic to stop her? The story moves in that direction right away: Xukas says, "If she unleashes some ancient power, all should be prepared." -- there's no information that the staff could do that or that is Kassandra's motivation.
    Same with, "If Kassandra could claim the souls of an entire tribe, she might find some way to rule them, to twist them to serve some dark purpose." -- again, when did Kassandra suggest that she might aim for any sort of "dark purpose" at all?
    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Xukas#The_Swamp_and_the_Serpent

    As for her attempt to connect herself to the Hist -- surely her move to grab the staff is premature, considering that no one at that point really knew how to use it at all. Even if they did, she'd be wiser to seek their help instead of striking out on her own suddenly with everyone pursuing her.
    Edited by Dusk_Coven on September 3, 2019 10:06PM
  • WhiteCoatSyndrome
    WhiteCoatSyndrome
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    TBH I'm still trying to figure out why the Blackguards (who work for her) are kidnapping the Cyrodillic Collections people (who also work for her). Kidnapping the Nagas makes some sense, as they're generally not helpful to outsiders, but at that point the Collections people had no reason not to tell her everything they knew if she just asked. And kidnapping them raises the odds they'll get killed or lost in the swamp trying to escape, thus completely denying her any information they might have had.
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  • Aristocles22
    Aristocles22
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    Murkmire's plot is really not that great. Very low-stakes and elements are introduced into it very suddenly, like the Ayleids or Kassandra going nuts.
  • tsaescishoeshiner
    tsaescishoeshiner
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    I found it weird that the Remnant of Argon damage potential's is never concretely explained, but as an object able to store souls with a strong connection to the Hist, its power is pretty clear. The staff alone gave Kassandra powerful combat abilities, a miregaunt mechsuit, and powers over the Hist.

    In her dialogue during the final fight with her, she says:
    Kassandra: "I can hear the Hist! Finally, I can hear it!"
    ...
    Kassandra: "The Hist's power is mine to command!"
    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Kassandra

    She might have been "working with" the Blackguards, but that doesn't mean that she trusts them -- the same way she's "working with" the player. She was able to use everyone to get what she wants.
    Then why the big panic to stop her?
    ...
    when did Kassandra suggest that she might aim for any sort of "dark purpose" at all?
    When she stole an ancient relic, paralyzed a group of people, and threatened to kill people on her way to seek out even more power. Doesn't exactly suggest someone who had selfless intentions for the relic, and of course she wouldn't reveal this nature early on.

    Chasing Kassandra was a way of chasing the staff to the Remnant of Argon (the characters say this) - I think stopping her became important once her violence and betrayal became clear, and was necessary to actually acquire the Remnant of Argon.
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  • LickingHistSap
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    Dusk_Coven wrote: »
    Kassandra isn't attempting to use it as a weapon of mass destruction, she's trying to use the spirits of Argonians within the Remnant to forcibly connect herself to the Hist Trees, as she's been fairly open about her motivations for collecting relics in the past quests.

    Then why the big panic to stop her? The story moves in that direction right away: Xukas says, "If she unleashes some ancient power, all should be prepared." -- there's no information that the staff could do that or that is Kassandra's motivation.
    Same with, "If Kassandra could claim the souls of an entire tribe, she might find some way to rule them, to twist them to serve some dark purpose." -- again, when did Kassandra suggest that she might aim for any sort of "dark purpose" at all?
    https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Xukas#The_Swamp_and_the_Serpent

    As for her attempt to connect herself to the Hist -- surely her move to grab the staff is premature, considering that no one at that point really knew how to use it at all. Even if they did, she'd be wiser to seek their help instead of striking out on her own suddenly with everyone pursuing her.

    "theres no indication that's kassandras motivation"

    Her entire character is desperately trying to connect with the Hist- hell, her first words after getting in the tree mech are "finally, I can hear them!"

    And again, talk to Kassandra, all of her dialogue earlier implies a dark desire to use the artifacts collected to reconnect with the Hist.

    Murkmire doesn't have huge stakes, it's a story about recovering a lost tribe of Argonians and fixing an ancient wrong, and Kassandra was willing to sacrifice all those trapped within the Remnant to gain a 'connection' instead of finally fixing this and reviving the Hist. It's honestly one of the better stories in the game imo, everyone has believable motivations and isn't just another 'end of the world' scenario.
  • This_0ne
    This_0ne
    I'm so disappointed in the murkmire main quest. It would be better if they developed the idea of a prologue with a necromancer and skull-horcrux. ZOS's mainquest could be realized in two side quests: injure Cassandra and artifact (root-visper viladge story)
  • Dusk_Coven
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    And again, talk to Kassandra, all of her dialogue earlier implies a dark desire to use the artifacts collected to reconnect with the Hist.

    "dark desire"?
    Reconnect with the Hist, sure, but if she had intimated any "dark desire" in this objective, I don't recall and surely the folks in Cyrodiilic Collections wouldn't have gone with it (neither would the Vestige, but they've had the Vestige do outright stupid things before). I'm pretty sure ZOS pulled out a last-minute plot twist there, making it very sudden and combined with other points others have made, not really plausible.

    It's still possible of course -- she hid everything, blah blah blah, but good storytelling is more about what the reader experiences as plausible as the story progresses. That means some foreshadowing at least.
    Edited by Dusk_Coven on September 14, 2019 12:49AM
  • Konstant_Tel_Necris
    Konstant_Tel_Necris
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    TBH I'm still trying to figure out why the Blackguards (who work for her) are kidnapping the Cyrodillic Collections people (who also work for her). Kidnapping the Nagas makes some sense, as they're generally not helpful to outsiders, but at that point the Collections people had no reason not to tell her everything they knew if she just asked. And kidnapping them raises the odds they'll get killed or lost in the swamp trying to escape, thus completely denying her any information they might have had.

    You can correct me if I am mistaken, but I see it in that's way:
    Kassandra wasn't a big boss, most likely she worked under Whiptail or even for Drakeeh the Unchained as legal fence of contraband argonian artifacts via Cyrodillic Collections and Margus Derius most likely was part of this in such way they rise funds for Blackguards, but first such artifacts must be found.
    In such way she employed adventurers and archeologist for doing work on what dumb Blackguards mercenary incapable.
    After items are found Blackguards just plunder cleared ruins or mug adventurers for loot that's why there was such staff turnover in Cyrodillic Collections.
    Someday Kassandra found information about Remnant of Argon and decided use it for self, to ultimately achieve connection to Hist, I do not think that's Whiptail or Drakeeh was aware about her plans, most likely she lied them, so after she run Whiptail decided capture Cyrodillic Collections members and squeeze information out of them about actual Kassandra plans, as we can see he have own plans to resurrect buried Sithis worshiping and become his champion that why he need Remnant of Argon to power ritual, not sure if Drakeeh aware of this also, but I see connection of Whiptail plans and Shuxaltsei resurrection in Teeth of Sithis most likely all those Blackguards vampires around was under Whiptail command, and he involved in resurrection of last pre Duskfall Sithis priestess most likely she manipulated him.

    Edited by Konstant_Tel_Necris on September 19, 2019 2:03AM
  • Dusk_Coven
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    so after she run Whiptail decided capture Cyrodillic Collections members and squeeze information out of them about actual Kassandra plans

    Hmm wasn't Whiptail with her when she drugged the lot of them right at the plot twist?
    Edited by Dusk_Coven on September 20, 2019 3:17AM
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