[Psijic Order possible spoiler] How does the Order justify the Augur's status

Dusk_Coven

Binding and imprisoning a sentient for their convenience?
Sure it's a plot device, but as plot devices go it just seems flawed at the start.
And never mind that they're gonna let an omniscient go to Tamriel with an exile before they ask it what the Court of Bedlam's plans are.

VaranisArano

From what the Augur says, being bound not to lie when directly asked, it can be inferred that the Psijics were using him to answer questions. The closest we get to an answer of why is "I don't blame them, honestly. If I was in their position, bobbing along like a little lost acorn in an ocean of knowledge, I'd want to trap me too."

As for the justification, Tamriel is not a particularly moral place, and aside from their abhorrence of necromancy, there's nothing that really sets the Psijic Order above it all morally. It might be that they feel they have no choice, or it might be that they don't care. We don't have a lot of examples from the Psijic Order, but the Mages Guild (begun by former Psijic Vanus Galerion) we see a fair amount of less than ethical magical practices.

As for asking the Augur about the Court of Bedlam...one of my greatest annoyances with the Summerset questline was the way the Psijic Order had a firm grip on the idiot ball the whole time.

Dusk_Coven

VaranisArano wrote: »

there's nothing that really sets the Psijic Order above it all morally. It might be that they feel they have no choice, or it might be that they don't care.

Celarus's answer to the player question about the Psijic ORder suggests they do consider morality:

Q:What does it take to become a Psijic?
A: "A noble heart and a solemn commitment to the good. Achieving a membership in the Psijic Order is a serious and lasting endeavor. You must be prudent, but fearless. Withdrawn, but compassionate. It is not something to be taken lightly."
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Loremaster_Celarus

So unless they have some insider knowledge to interpret the Augur's "escape attempts" it doesn't add up. Even if we take the Augur seriously about being bound, it does express anguish about solitary confinement.

VaranisArano

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

there's nothing that really sets the Psijic Order above it all morally. It might be that they feel they have no choice, or it might be that they don't care.

Celarus's answer to the player question about the Psijic ORder suggests they do consider morality:

Q:What does it take to become a Psijic?
A: "A noble heart and a solemn commitment to the good. Achieving a membership in the Psijic Order is a serious and lasting endeavor. You must be prudent, but fearless. Withdrawn, but compassionate. It is not something to be taken lightly."
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Loremaster_Celarus

So unless they have some insider knowledge to interpret the Augur's "escape attempts" it doesn't add up.

I take that to mean that they have their own view of morality (that's pretty normal for organizations in Tamriel). In fact, that becomes clear in their guild questline as Celarus and Josejah's views on morality and action begin to clash. Her choice to do what she thinks is good and right clashes with the Psijic view of what is good and right.

That Psijic viewpoint doesnt necessarily mean that "We are good so obviously we would never do a bad thing like ritually binding a sentient person/creature to answer questions for us..."

Because the Psijics did that, and clearly don't see a conflict with having the Augur locked in a Vault AND calling themselves good.

Problem is, you want to know "why" and aside from the Augur's comment, I don't see any dialogue from the Augur, Celarus, or Josejah that explains it any further.

Objectively, it makes the Psijic Order look like hypocrites. Subjectively, the best guess we have is that the Augur thinks the Psijics are desperate enough for answers that they bound him. Unfortunately, I don't see


Personally, I don't find it surprising. TES is big on "protagonist-centered morality" and actions that we would call objectively evil (soul-trapping, slavery, cannibalism etc) are accepted and even sometimes lauded as a societal good.

VaranisArano

Okay, I did find some more dialogue From Celarus. I dont know how I missed it.

When finishing up the questline, you can say: Can we discuss the Augur of the Obscure? It agreed to help us on the condition that I set it free.

Celarus: "I would not have entered into such a bargain. But given the circumstances, I understand.
The Augur served us well, but we cannot permit objects of such power to roam free in Tamriel. In the wrong hands, its gift of foresight could prove costly.
/ I understand that you entered into an arrangement with the Augur, but an object like that—particularly an object with its ... unique disposition—cannot roam free.
I am sorry."

So while this doesnt answer the question of why they bound the Augur in the first place, it does answer why they keep him in the Vault or allow him to go with Josajeh. They won't let artifacts of power roam free for fear of what they'd do in the wrong hands. This makes sense, given the fetch quest to find the harmful relics in Summerset.

Dusk_Coven

VaranisArano wrote: »

They won't let artifacts of power roam free for fear of what they'd do in the wrong hands.

But the Augur didn't start out as an artifact. They could release it and let it go back to whatever obscure unreachable origin it came from.
That would be even safer than allowing it to stay in a state where it could be captured.

VaranisArano

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

They won't let artifacts of power roam free for fear of what they'd do in the wrong hands.

But the Augur didn't start out as an artifact. They could release it and let it go back to whatever obscure unreachable origin it came from.
That would be even safer than allowing it to stay in a state where it could be captured.

Perhaps. The only answer we get is that the Psijic Order doesn't do that. So either we assume that they are too incompetent to think up that solution (not entirely unlikely due to them holding the idiot ball in their questline), they are uncaring enough to hold a sentient being/creature captive despite having that option, or that they are smart enough to have considered that option and rejected it for a reason they don't deign to share with us. The compromise they do accept is to let his artifact go...with supervision from us or Josajeh who have both dealt with the Augur before.

Those are all assumptions on our part for why they don't take your suggestion. The game doesnt tell us which is which.

So pick an explanation that satisfies you. You get to make up your own mind about this one.

RaddlemanNumber7

I see the Augur of the Obscure a little differently.

The Augur knows everything (let's assume). It is conscious of all things, from all points of perspective, at all scales, at all times, without beginning and possibly without end. It is not just omniscient but also effectively ubiquitous (everywhere at once). If it knows everything, then, for example, when you're in the bath it knows what you're doing while you're doing it.

How can a mind that is literally everywhere be trapped, owned or imprisoned? Obviously not.

The Augur says that it is an aspect. I believe it. It is my theory that the Augur of the Obscure is a vehicle for some subtle divine intervention. It provides the Dreamer with an opportunity to game the mortals who come into contact with it, and so keep the Mundus going in the desired direction. It is not a possession or a tool of the Psijiics, even if they have been persuaded that it is. The Augur has put itself there to keep the crazy meat-brains in line (especially the really dangerous ones like Josajeh).

The Psijiics see one of their roles as policing up dangerous artefacts.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Ajaxandriel

Should it be regarded as sentient?
What if the Augur is a kind of A.I.?