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The End of Days. The 6th Sermon of Vivec.

Cygemai_Hlervu
Cygemai_Hlervu
✭✭✭
"Proceed only with the simplest terms, for all others are enemies and will confuse you." - he said. "Proceed with it thyself!" - I'd be willing to reply him on that line of his Sermon Six of his 36 Lessons.

Do you have any ideas of what he meant in this line: "I am Vehk, your protector and the protector of Red Mountain until the end of days, which are numbered 3333."? I've found some ideas what could it mean. They all presume that this could be some triad of concepts, or the date of the Landfall, or the 3333rd year (a year - not a day) of history, or the year of 2E 828 when Tiber Septim presumably was born (if those days are converted into years and the first year of the row is 1E 416 - the year Resdayn defeated Skyrim). Or could it be the 3333rd day since the apparition of a Ruling King, who's "death is only a diagram back to the waking world" (the one we call the real) and who "sleeps the second way" (with his eyes open before a monitor)?

But these ideas have many cons. At least the numbers don't give us a more or less certain answer to what a 3333rd day could be to be considered the final one. Could it be the day of the destruction of Nirn we might face in the future? Or is it just another version of the Tyranny of the Sun prophecy stating that the Sun will be blotted from the sky and the world will plunged into eternal darkness thus ending the days? Then it is possibly 4E201..

This riddle is really a hard one to me. Anyone knows the answer? I have several thoughts on this:
* This might be just a crap;
* The certain explanation is laying somewhere in a very deep lore I'm not aware of or I'm just missing something very simple;
* It's an event IRL reference.
Edited by Cygemai_Hlervu on August 22, 2019 9:38PM
  • Siohwenoeht
    Siohwenoeht
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    I'd be willing to believe it is complete conjecture on Vivec's part. I forget if it's another of the sermons or another lore source, but Vivec is so talented at storytelling/lying that even he doesn't know if what he says is true.
    "It is a lovely language, but it takes a very long time saying anything in it, because we do not say anything in it, unless it is worth taking a long time to say, and to listen to." - Treebeard
  • ExoArchivist
    ExoArchivist
    Soul Shriven
    If I had to guess, my money would be on this being basically an embellishment on Vivec's part. Keep in mind he's the Warrior-Poet.

    It sounds better this way. And where does the 3 come from? Well it's the Tribunal, is it not?

    I'm honestly willing to bet it could be as simple as that.
    ...the ending of the words is ALMSIVI
    XB1 EU - ExoArchivist
    • Zaidantis - Dunmer - Nightblade - Damage
    • Haj-Glin - Argonian - Templar - Healer
  • Cygemai_Hlervu
    Cygemai_Hlervu
    ✭✭✭
    I'd be willing to believe it is complete conjecture on Vivec's part. I forget if it's another of the sermons or another lore source, but Vivec is so talented at storytelling/lying that even he doesn't know if what he says is true.

    Nah, Vivec knows what he says really very well!.. Yes, you're right, friend, but you only mistake this Vivec's feature for the one of Almalexia. Sotha Sil describes them both on this matter during our conversations:

    On Almalexia: "To understand Almalexia, you must first understand the value of fiction. Vivec fancies himself the poet, but in truth, Ayem is the greater storyteller. She believes her tales implicitly. As does everyone else. Her capacity for deception appears limitless."
    On Vivec: "Vivec knows the boundaries that separate fact from fiction. He knows them so well that's he's learned how to break them. He exists inside his verse, but recognizes the lies. The contradictions. He both does, and does not believe his own tales."

    So, yes, he's a Warrior-Poet, as you, @ExoArchivist, say, but he's just like we are - he suspects his world's just a video game quite well, but he still plays his role the way he is supposed to. Yes, he's a Poet but not that simple. It's all a big riddle about that End of days and the number 3333. I believe it means something, but what exactly?..
    Edited by Cygemai_Hlervu on August 23, 2019 11:55AM
  • Vigawatt
    Vigawatt
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    The sermon says he is the protector until the end of days, but his power comes from the Heart of Lorkhan. After the events of TES 3, he can't be the protector because his power will gradually fade because he can't replenish it with the heart. The Tribunal needed to take pilgrimages to the Heart occasionally.

    The Tribunal are 3 Chimer who use the Heart of Lorkhan, but a 4th person used it as well: Dagoth Ur. Maybe 333 represents the Tribunal, and the fourth 3 represents Dagoth Ur. The fourth 3 breaks the pattern. 3 is the Tribunal, the fourth 3 is someone on par with the Tribunal, so the end of days for Vivec is when the fourth living god reemerges.

    Not a bad theory off the top of my head.
  • Cygemai_Hlervu
    Cygemai_Hlervu
    ✭✭✭
    Yes, not a bad one, @Vigawatt. But still it doesn't make clear anything.. "..until the end of days, which are numbered the Tribunal and Dagoth Ur"? Well.. Maybe it's just.. Has anyone played Morrowind for 3333 real time days (~9 years, I suppose) :D? What happens out there in the game?
    Edited by Cygemai_Hlervu on August 23, 2019 2:53PM
  • RaddlemanNumber7
    RaddlemanNumber7
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    3333 is a cryptogram, not simply a count of days (or years).

    As you may have noticed, Sermon 6 is an interlude in the narration of Vivec's self-retcon prequel journey. This interlude is inserted between Sermons 5 and 7 because the number 6 is significant, as in "666".

    Note the three sixes in the text of Sermon 6:

    "You have discovered the sixth Sermon of Vivec, which was hidden in the words that came next to the Hortator.
    There is an eon within itself that when unraveled becomes the first sentence of the world.
    Mephala and Azura are the twin gates of tradition and Boethiah is the secret flame.
    The Sun shall be eaten by lions, which cannot be found yet in Veloth.
    Six are the vests and garments worn by the suppositions of men.
    Proceed only with the simplest terms, for all others are enemies and will confuse you.
    Six are the formulas to heaven by violence, one that you have learned by studying these words."

    It's yet another reference to the IRL Book of Revelation [/yawn]. As you may or may not know, the Book of Revelation is stuffed full of classical era numerology.

    One of the "tricks" of classical era numerology is turning the letters of a name into numbers, and then adding up all those numbers to arrive at a multi-digit number, then adding those digits up to arrive at a single digit number in the range 1 through 9. That final single digit number then corresponded to one of the nine chief gods in the pantheon, and this was said to indicate the essential nature attached to the name.

    Add up 666 you get 18, then 1+8 = 9. IIRC the number 9 corresponded to Mars in the Roman pantheon, which is violence. Not good if you're considering the fate of existence.

    I think the author of Vivec's Sermons is suggesting that 3333 is the number of the Tribunal, like 666 is the number of The Beast.

    The only thing that I can see that is special about that number is that if you add up 3+3+3+3 you get 12, then add 1+2 you end up with 3 - the tribunal. I think this is basically saying that the Tribunal are no-one but themselves, that they are essentially self-defining.

    It might be that the fourth "3" in the number 3333 is the missing fourth member of tribunal - Nerevar. Referring to the fact that the Tribunal sealed their own fate from the beginning by murdering Nerevar, who would then one day return to destroy the Tribunal and their little world.

    Apart from that, Sermon 6 seems to be all about style, not content. It tries to ape the style of the Apocalypse of St John the Divine, but IMO fails badly. It's essentially incoherent, just trying to find cryptic ways of telling us things we already know.

    The ESO - Summerset book "Ertival's Recounting" is a far better pastiche of the Apocalypse. Whoever wrote that did an excellent job.
    PC EU
  • Cygemai_Hlervu
    Cygemai_Hlervu
    ✭✭✭
    3333 is a cryptogram, not simply a count of days (or years).

    As you may have noticed, Sermon 6 is an interlude in the narration of Vivec's self-retcon prequel journey. This interlude is inserted between Sermons 5 and 7 because the number 6 is significant, as in "666".

    Note the three sixes in the text of Sermon 6:

    "You have discovered the sixth Sermon of Vivec, which was hidden in the words that came next to the Hortator.
    There is an eon within itself that when unraveled becomes the first sentence of the world.
    Mephala and Azura are the twin gates of tradition and Boethiah is the secret flame.
    The Sun shall be eaten by lions, which cannot be found yet in Veloth.
    Six are the vests and garments worn by the suppositions of men.
    Proceed only with the simplest terms, for all others are enemies and will confuse you.
    Six are the formulas to heaven by violence, one that you have learned by studying these words."

    It's yet another reference to the IRL Book of Revelation [/yawn]. As you may or may not know, the Book of Revelation is stuffed full of classical era numerology.

    One of the "tricks" of classical era numerology is turning the letters of a name into numbers, and then adding up all those numbers to arrive at a multi-digit number, then adding those digits up to arrive at a single digit number in the range 1 through 9. That final single digit number then corresponded to one of the nine chief gods in the pantheon, and this was said to indicate the essential nature attached to the name.

    Add up 666 you get 18, then 1+8 = 9. IIRC the number 9 corresponded to Mars in the Roman pantheon, which is violence. Not good if you're considering the fate of existence.

    I think the author of Vivec's Sermons is suggesting that 3333 is the number of the Tribunal, like 666 is the number of The Beast.

    The only thing that I can see that is special about that number is that if you add up 3+3+3+3 you get 12, then add 1+2 you end up with 3 - the tribunal. I think this is basically saying that the Tribunal are no-one but themselves, that they are essentially self-defining.

    It might be that the fourth "3" in the number 3333 is the missing fourth member of tribunal - Nerevar. Referring to the fact that the Tribunal sealed their own fate from the beginning by murdering Nerevar, who would then one day return to destroy the Tribunal and their little world.

    Apart from that, Sermon 6 seems to be all about style, not content. It tries to ape the style of the Apocalypse of St John the Divine, but IMO fails badly. It's essentially incoherent, just trying to find cryptic ways of telling us things we already know.

    The ESO - Summerset book "Ertival's Recounting" is a far better pastiche of the Apocalypse. Whoever wrote that did an excellent job.

    Yes, I have studied the sources you mention. Hmm, a very insightful comment. I'll think it over and write back then. Thanks, friend!
  • Aramithius
    Aramithius
    Soul Shriven
    I'd be more inclined to look at it in terms of the passage and the Tribunal's own numerology, rather than real-world numerology. If we take it by the example above, you do get the Tribunal, but how are they the end of days?

    Then I looked at the passages that came afterwards, which may reflect on it. Note that the passage is "I am Vehk, your protector and the protector of Red Mountain until the end of days", and then these:

    "Below me is the savage, which we needed to remove ourselves from the Altmer.

    Above me is a challenge, which bathes itself in fire and the essence of a god."

    The Savage is/are the Good Daedra, who helped the Chimer leave Summerset, and the challenge is Dagoth Ur, who bathes in the fire of Red Mountain and the essence of Lorkhan through his Heart.

    So if Vivec is between these two, the end of days talked about here is potentially the end of the Tribunal, as the end of Dagoth Ur brings about the end of Sotha Sil and Almalexia.

    I think it's also interesting that the phrase is "the end of days, which are numbered 3333". It doesn't seem like a single end, in that case. This is particularly the case as "the heavens" (numbered 12) are plural in the 36 Lessons. Which Vivec may associate with hirself ("The Son is myself, Vehk, and I am unto three, six, nine, and the rest that come after,"). All of the multiples of 3 are associated with Vivec in some way, at least if you take the New Whirling School's reading on it.

    The tl;dr, I have no real answers, but there are tons of interesting possibilities for this.
    Host of the Written in Uncertainty podcast, and regular participant in the Selectives Lorecast.
  • Cygemai_Hlervu
    Cygemai_Hlervu
    ✭✭✭
    Yes, very insightful, @Aramithius, thank you! I've read the New Whirling School texts before, but I just can't understand why he makes it in the form of a reference to a time period. I still guess those 3333 days are a time period somehow resembling something of a feature IRL. I still doubt it is just the matter of pure numerology. I think it's something more..
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