Khajiit Slave Owners Are Terrible People

JusticeForJilarga

In this ones humble opinion anyone who has or ever thought of owning a Khajiit slave is a terrible person. There is no disputing this.

Aigym_Hlervu

Indeed, you're absolutely right. I just want to add some meat to the bone: Ruvali Manothrel is a very good example of what you say: the wife of a murdered husband who ran the Sathram Plantation in Stonefalls. After she strangled one of those slaves to death, Ruvali told me that "This plantation will be rebuilt and repopulated with many cat-man slaves. And I will work every one of them to death in memory of my Tiril".

It's madness. At least she could buy those Orcs, Bosmer or Bretons who has already proven themselves to be way better slaves at Suran plantations but instead she decided to destroy her own property. Madness. Slaves are supposed to work, not to die. Khajiits have shown themselves to be the worst slaves of all, so yes - bad slaves make their owners really terrible.

JusticeForJilarga

This one sees where you are coming from @Cygemai_Hlervu but JusticeForJilarga thinks that nobody should be slaves. Even the ugly Argonians.

Justice for Jilarga thinks that the Khajiit are noble people. What monsters could be so cruel as to force the Khajiit to work for them?

Aigym_Hlervu

Well, the logic of the right to own slaves might be bad for a Khajiit or anyone else in Elsweyr but is good for a Dunmer in Morrowind. First they say a cat is no more a slave or a pet able to work, but a sentient being equal to us. Then they'll say our land is no more a home that belongs to us, but a province of all man-, mer and beastkind. After it they'll judge our internal affairs taking all our wealth out, appointing aliens to senior roles, stationing their armed thugs at our place and making us believe it is all ok and morally sane. Almost all of it is just ahead in the history of Morrowind, you know.

As a Dunmer I prefer to be the master at my own home, to treat my property the way I think is right. So this all depends on the place "the monsters" are forcing the Khajiit to work for them: if it is Elsweyr and the "monsters" are foreign conquerors it is just one matter. If it is Morrowind - it is another one. A cat is considered a sentient being only among cats in a cat world. But in the world of mer it is just a pet, a tool, a property. This is the design of the world we play our roles in, be it good or bad ..

Aristocles22

The Mer/Elves in general have issues regarding race and slavery, especially the more civilized groups. I suppose it's a testament to where attitudes of racial superiority gets someone. Or a group. Or at least two groups which think themselves directly descended from the gods and view all other races as slaves or raw materials. The Ayleids (also Elves) did things to humans in Cyrodiil which would probably disgust even the Thalmor of the 4th era.

Minyassa

Anyone who owns any slave of any type is a terrible person. I mean this is kind of like saying "ice from Eastmarch is cold."

Korah_Eaglecry

JusticeForJilarga wrote: »

In this ones humble opinion anyone who has or ever thought of owning a Khajiit slave is a terrible person. There is no disputing this.

Listen, if I had known what that stubby slow speaking N'wah intended to do when he brought his horde of drunks down from Riften. Me and my kin would have cut him down then. So many like myself have suffered at the institution of the ban on Argonian slavery. So much so that I no longer practice my craft, now spending my time ankle deep fighting for a throne I will never sit. Thankfully, Jorunn wasnt clever enough to think of all the other races when he promised those shellbacks their freedom. And so now we have sorties regularly leaving Port Telvannis for locales like Stormhaven and the Khajiiti coast. Bringing back to the homeland plenty of slaves for our people to put to good use.

Maybe you should take up your complaints with the Court of the Mumbling King if you feel so much scorn. I'm sure he'll lend you a sympathetic ear.

-Yynril Rothvani, Former Dres Slaver

Aristocles22

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

JusticeForJilarga wrote: »

In this ones humble opinion anyone who has or ever thought of owning a Khajiit slave is a terrible person. There is no disputing this.

Listen, if I had known what that stubby slow speaking N'wah intended to do when he brought his horde of drunks down from Riften. Me and my kin would have cut him down then. So many like myself have suffered at the institution of the ban on Argonian slavery. So much so that I no longer practice my craft, now spending my time ankle deep fighting for a throne I will never sit. Thankfully, Jorunn wasnt clever enough to think of all the other races when he promised those shellbacks their freedom. And so now we have sorties regularly leaving Port Telvannis for locales like Stormhaven and the Khajiiti coast. Bringing back to the homeland plenty of slaves for our people to put to good use.

Maybe you should take up your complaints with the Court of the Mumbling King if you feel so much scorn. I'm sure he'll lend you a sympathetic ear.

-Yynril Rothvani, Former Dres Slaver

That sort of talk is what's gonna lead to the Argonians rising up and sacking Mournhold someday. It could take them an era or two, but sooner or later, it's gonna happen. You'll see.

Aigym_Hlervu

Minyassa wrote: »

Anyone who owns any slave of any type is a terrible person. I mean this is kind of like saying "ice from Eastmarch is cold."

Hah, let me play a Dunmer role once more : "Anyone who owns any pet of any type is a terrible person" - does that sound good for you? The same thing it sounds for a Dunmer regarding slaves. Sounds like an offence against property at least.

Aristocles22 wrote: »

That sort of talk is what's gonna lead to the Argonians rising up and sacking Mournhold someday. It could take them an era or two, but sooner or later, it's gonna happen. You'll see.

Morrowind faced too many full scale invasions in its history. All of the invaders has been buried in our lands, driven out or enslaved. But Morrowind has never invaded any foreign land the same way on its own - no pillaging, sacking and murdering anyone in a foreign land. So, who's evil here? It might take some time but I hope our peaceful foreign policy ends and we'll retaliate.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Morrowind faced too many full scale invasions in its history. All of the invaders has been buried in our lands, driven out or enslaved. But Morrowind has never invaded any foreign land the same way on its own - no pillaging, sacking and murdering anyone in a foreign land. So, who's evil here? It might take some time but I hope our peaceful foreign policy ends and we'll retaliate.

I guess Black Marsh doesn't count?

WhiteCoatSyndrome

...I read the title and thought you were talking about Thazahrr-ra.

Aigym_Hlervu

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Morrowind faced too many full scale invasions in its history. All of the invaders has been buried in our lands, driven out or enslaved. But Morrowind has never invaded any foreign land the same way on its own - no pillaging, sacking and murdering anyone in a foreign land. So, who's evil here? It might take some time but I hope our peaceful foreign policy ends and we'll retaliate.

I guess Black March doesn't count?

Yep. Slaver raid parties seem to be relatively small companies, they are not inteded to conquer and govern the locals. It's just you come, you win, you take your loot and leave the place in peace (if you win, of course).

"Black March" - that's cool! Grim July, Nasty May.. what else could it be ..

Harrdarrzarr

I find it odd that people can roleplay as slavers to such an extent.

Aigym_Hlervu

Harrdarrzarr wrote: »

I find it odd that people can roleplay as slavers to such an extent.

The game does not allow a Dunmer player to become a slaver or even just to support the slaver cause in spite of our lore culture is based on slavery. We even are forced to do all the work for that argonian slave Sun-in-Shadow to make her a House Telvanni Retainer instead of becoming the one ourselves. That's what I call to be odd because we cannot even choose to become the ones we are supposed be lore wise.

We all are just Dunmer of an unknown origin and a limited number of achievements and titles we can obtain. Ashlander clanfriend, Hand of Almalexia, Champion of Vivec, etc.- these are the only roles a Dunmer can choose to play. No Slaver title or achievement I'm aware of is present there. Well, that's not too bad for me personally, so I give my personal thanks to ZOS for the roles they've already given to us to choose for a roleplay.

pdblake

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Morrowind faced too many full scale invasions in its history. All of the invaders has been buried in our lands, driven out or enslaved. But Morrowind has never invaded any foreign land the same way on its own - no pillaging, sacking and murdering anyone in a foreign land. So, who's evil here? It might take some time but I hope our peaceful foreign policy ends and we'll retaliate.


"Black March" - that's cool! Grim July, Nasty May.. what else could it be ..

Sounds like Britain. At the moment it's Awfully Wet August, leading into Soggy September.

Edited to fixed quote

JusticeForJilarga

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

JusticeForJilarga wrote: »

In this ones humble opinion anyone who has or ever thought of owning a Khajiit slave is a terrible person. There is no disputing this.

Listen, if I had known what that stubby slow speaking N'wah intended to do when he brought his horde of drunks down from Riften. Me and my kin would have cut him down then. So many like myself have suffered at the institution of the ban on Argonian slavery. So much so that I no longer practice my craft, now spending my time ankle deep fighting for a throne I will never sit. Thankfully, Jorunn wasnt clever enough to think of all the other races when he promised those shellbacks their freedom. And so now we have sorties regularly leaving Port Telvannis for locales like Stormhaven and the Khajiiti coast. Bringing back to the homeland plenty of slaves for our people to put to good use.

Maybe you should take up your complaints with the Court of the Mumbling King if you feel so much scorn. I'm sure he'll lend you a sympathetic ear.

-Yynril Rothvani, Former Dres Slaver

This one smells a trap.

Tommy_The_Gun

As some one who mostly play as an Argonian, If you dont know what to do with slavers of any kind (rich, poor, it does not matter), then just ask, because:

Anyway, from my experience with in game quests & lore, it is impossible for any slaver to "redeem" him/her self. There is simply no way. It seems it is simply to late for them. They went this path for too long. Even after extreme punishment, they will return to their cruel practices (in happens in pretty much all the quest involving slavers). The only way is to simply eliminate them. Also I would like to point out that often the game will not allow you to do so. This was especially infuriating with Morrowind quest. Many quests were simply lacking proper dialogue option. And it is not like lore wise protagonist of this game is too weak for that. FFS we are talking about a person who single-handedly defeated Molag Ball, a freaking daedric lord...

I still remember back in the day when I was playing TES III: Morrowind, it was possible. Yep, right after I was done with for example Telvani quests I simply left their towers empty. So No slavers were left alive. And that was in a base game, without mods. The base game allowed to so

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

"Black March" - that's cool! Grim July, Nasty May.. what else could it be ..

It was late ok! My brain was not very focused on spelling

Aigym_Hlervu

Well, guys, reading the comments I just can't understand why so many of you are against slavery in Morrowind. It's so illogical and unfair.. I can't choose a proper word because I understand many of those slavery haters are not capable to understand anything that contradicts their beliefs. Slavery is designed to be a part of the game world, the lore is written. None of the players can be ever enslaved, so why so much rejection?

Many of us own those hirelings who do all the same jobs the slaves do (extraction and delivery of various resources). They call us their employers, but do we ever pay them? No. Do they have an option not to work for us? No. Well, Pacrooti is an exception because he is not just a lumberjack but also runs a Crown store and.. he's also a slaverunner: many of us use those Senche-raht mounts - another form of a Khajiiti slave. We pay Pacrooti - he sells us one to ride on and carry our things. There's no even a special quest to let the mount express its will or to disobey. So what a terrible people are we, yes ?

What is this about you all? I think I'm the only one honest here and I feel my previous posts here regarding the rights of property, Dunmer culture and justness in Morrowind overall make no sense to you slavery haters because:

Minyassa wrote: »

Anyone who owns any slave of any type is a terrible person. I mean this is kind of like saying "ice from Eastmarch is cold."

"I don't like it, so no one will in order to be a good man" - it's brilliant. I don't mean to offend anyone - sorry, guys if these lines might be read in the manner I suppose them not to be read. But why am I terrible to own a hireling, a Khajiiti to ride on or any other slave to help me with, say, resource gathering? I'd be glad if we were able to also buy a special NPC slave to follow us instead of those useless pets, to gather resources, craft and repair armor, play music etc. This is our ancient Dunmeri right to own property especially slaves and we'll punish anyone who dares to outrage it. Hmm, I think it's time to buy another senche-raht Khajiit slave to have a good ride around Vivec City .

WuffyCerulei

We can just throw all the Mer out into the trash. Even the hobgoblins we call Bosmer. And the Orsimer. They’re all just awful lore-wise. Awful people.

msalvia

Watch out, man. "Slavery is bad" is now a controversial statement. Tread lightly, don't want to offend any slave traders, after all. There are good people on both sides.

Bruccius

Everyone is very eager to jump on the ''slavery is bad'' bandwagon without looking at it from any other perspective.

People seem to ignore that, during and after this point in history, slavery was allowed in pretty much every province of Tamriel. Does ESO do a good job depicting this? Not in the slightest, but it doesn't change the fact. Only Summerset and Valenwood had outlawed slavery before becoming part of the Third Empire, the rest? Nope. Tiber Septim himself sold the Breton command of the Nord-Breton alliance at Sancre Tor into slavery. Reman Cyrodiil kept the Akaviri Tsaesci as slaves, too.

The best part is that everyone hates the Dunmer for slavery, while ignoring the fact that, in lore, the Dunmer enslave everyone - even their own.

It's all about perspective, and for some reason, most of the anti-slavery camp seems to lack the ability to understand the views of those who do take, and keep, slaves.

Aigym_Hlervu

@Bruccius - another man of sense and good reasoning at last.

Bruccius

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

@Bruccius - another man of sense and good reasoning at last.

I'm not saying I agree with the practice. It's just that I understand the opposing argument. Which is vital to actually coming to any sort of sensible conclusion.

ArchMikem

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Aristocles22 wrote: »

That sort of talk is what's gonna lead to the Argonians rising up and sacking Mournhold someday. It could take them an era or two, but sooner or later, it's gonna happen. You'll see.

Morrowind faced too many full scale invasions in its history. All of the invaders has been buried in our lands, driven out or enslaved. But Morrowind has never invaded any foreign land the same way on its own - no pillaging, sacking and murdering anyone in a foreign land. So, who's evil here? It might take some time but I hope our peaceful foreign policy ends and we'll retaliate.

Kidnaps other peoples from their lands and enslaves them = "Peaceful foreign policy".



I always get a smile on my face when I go into Shadowfen, come across one of those Dunmer Slaver camps and purge them of their pointy eared occupants.

Minyassa

Hey, maybe in the interest of not having some people appear like psychopaths this thread should be moved into the Role-Playing subform, eh? @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BillE

JusticeForJilarga

Minyassa wrote: »

Hey, maybe in the interest of not having some people appear like psychopaths this thread should be moved into the Role-Playing subform, eh? @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BillE

You are right Walker. This one should have posted it there in the first place.

Aigym_Hlervu

Bruccius wrote: »

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

@Bruccius - another man of sense and good reasoning at last.

I'm not saying I agree with the practice. It's just that I understand the opposing argument. Which is vital to actually coming to any sort of sensible conclusion.

I understand and appreciate your point of view. My position here has been based exactly on the same opinion. I personally don't agree with the practice of slavery, I even don't have and am not planning to buy that senche-raht mount in spite of that joke I've said above (I ride a guar named Gothren ). But since I have reasons to play a Dunmer I find it reasonable to defend our lore rights and customs and the Ebonheart Pact when it comes for PvP game content. @Minyassa is right to propose this topic to be relocated to an RP section because we've been discussing not lore itself but its' application.

Korah_Eaglecry

Minyassa wrote: »

Hey, maybe in the interest of not having some people appear like psychopaths this thread should be moved into the Role-Playing subform, eh? @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_BillE

People regularly throw a little RP around here in the Lore forums. As long as it doesnt disrupt the conversation theres really no need to move it. If there is any actual reason to move it, it would be the fact that the topic doesnt really inspire conversation about the actual lore around slavery.

ChunkyCat

Four score and seven Khajiits ago, I had a dream... that should we win the day... Cinco De Gato will no longer be known as a Khajiitee holiday, but as the day the world declared in one voice: "We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight! We're going to live on! We’re going to survive!!

Semper Gatito.

DrowElfMorwen

Wow, I can't believe I just read someone arguing for "better slaves" in stead of NO slaves, of any race... And the amount of hatred and racism that Argonians and Khajiit are given by many players is appalling and says something of one's character.

I love Argonians and Khajiit; they're my favorite races!