Dual wield weapons

RodneyRegis

I know this has probably been asked umpteen times but there's so much outdated or conflicting stuff around.

Let's say a build suggests nirn axe main, sharp dagger off. If I run nirn dagger main, sharp axe off is there any difference?

El_Borracho

I'm assuming this is for PVE. No, there is not much of a difference. That is to say, I'm 100% positive there is a reason for this and it will probably give you a higher DPS number, but I don't know what it is. Basing this off past experience, I doubt the difference will be so astronomical that you will regret it. So if you got a lucky drop with that axe in sharpened, you can save the transmute crystals.

Its kind of funny that this is the meta again after it went from this to double infused. The same questions were brought up then, too. But it had more to do with proccing sets and/or monster helmets. The one thing that struck me about the build you are looking at (I'm guessing is alcast's stamblade) is that it runs without a monster set. Very interesting.

TheRealPotoroo

RodneyRegis wrote: »

I know this has probably been asked umpteen times but there's so much outdated or conflicting stuff around.

Let's say a build suggests nirn axe main, sharp dagger off. If I run nirn dagger main, sharp axe off is there any difference?

Someone would have to crunch the numbers but it probably won't make a difference for most of us. For the high end it could matter because the main hand strikes more frequently than the off hand, which statistically would play into what triggers what. For example, if bleed was factored into the original build than swapping the axe to the off hand would reduce how often it procced, and so forth. Having the dagger as the main would increase the probability of critical strikes, though, so swings and roundabouts.

El_Borracho

@TheRealPotoroo that's probably it. The build that I am guessing he is looking at employs Relequen, so the nirnhoned axe with Relequen's stacks should increase the damage with the bleeds. The build also puts the axe in the main hand, squeezing every ounce out of it. But I agree, the damage would be incremental with the vast majority of players.

RodneyRegis

It was the stamplar actually. Too be honest I don't follow meta or use alcast builds (my weaving is nowhere near up to scratch to use rele in proper content!) but thought I'd check out his builds as he's always first to update. I have a gold set of VMA dagger/axe gathering dust and the dagger happens to be nirnhoned. I don't have the crystals ATM so I'll just make the axe sharpened and run it off hand and give it a go. Just need to get that elusive master's bow - and I'm a bit annoyed I recently deconned all my 5 piece head and shoulders a week ago to free up space!

chuckythexii

Im pretty sure it is because your off hand will add damage to your main so the nirn trait is useful there but sharpened wont do anything, its not by much but why throw away free damage.

El_Borracho

@RodneyRegis no problem. I do essentially the same thing with alcast

I was very happy to see my vDSA bow on there instead of the vMA bow. I am a magnet for those while the vMA bow has yet to make an appearance. At least with this new reshuffle, there should be more vDSA groups out there now.

labambao

RodneyRegis wrote: »

I know this has probably been asked umpteen times but there's so much outdated or conflicting stuff around.

Let's say a build suggests nirn axe main, sharp dagger off. If I run nirn dagger main, sharp axe off is there any difference?

Because you do first light attack with main hand. And LA with axe in that hand can trigger bleed passive. Dagger always give you crit.
So if you replace it you can trigger axe bleed only with weapon skills, heavy attack or doing few light attacks in a row.

MashmalloMan

Alright. A lot of conflicting answers here. Based off my memory and no recent testing:

First, if you read Twin Blade and Blunt it says "Each axe gives your MELEE attacks a 8% chance to bleed enemies for ___ Physical Damage over 6 seconds."

That means all Light/Heavy attacks from both weapons, it doesn't matter what animation you see and whether you hit with your main or offhand more often, it's just 8% to all Light/Heavy attacks. Heavy attacks do not count as 2 hits. Since the axe bleed doesn't stack and only refreshes the duration if procced when it's already up, 16% with 2 axes is overkill, thus 1 dagger, 1 axe is bis for single target.

This was dropped for 2x daggers before this patch because bleeds were nerfed, now that they're mitigated by resistance, they've been buffed by 24% and have become more viable than before since you aim to fully penetrate a boss in pve anyway.

The one thing I can't remember, is if Melee Weapon Abilities like Flurry, Twin Slashes, Cleave, Uppercut, etc, proc the Axe bleed, but let's just assume it's only Light/Heavy attacks.

Secondly, the reason you use Nirn on your main hand and not off hand is because you get 100% of the damage from the main hand weapon, but only 6% of your offhand weapon. This is why you slot traits on your offhand like Precise, Infused, Sharpened, etc, because Nirn in main hand is just too powerful to pass up giving +200 weapon/spell damage.

This is what makes having a fully golded out or nirn offhand weapon kind of neglagible.. 6% of 200 is 12 damage. Do you really want to waste a nirn trait on +12 damage?

So the position of your Dagger/Axe does not matter, but the position of Nirn does. Always main hand.

Enchants proc from Light/Heavy/Weapon Abilities which is only from the Direct Damage portion or Ground Based AOE DOTS. Since DW does not have a Ground AOE DOT, ZOS coded in the exception for Blade Cloak to proc enchantments too.

So you can use Blade Cloak, Wall of Elements, Stampede or Volley to proc back bar Enchantments on CD easily, when on front bar.

If anything is wrong, feel free to correct me, but this is my understanding.

MashmalloMan

Oh to add to my previous comment, if you're bad at weaving, 2x daggers is better since +5% crit buffs all damage. The axe bleed is only useful for single target and if you're good at weaving to utilize the low % chance.

TheRealPotoroo

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Alright. A lot of conflicting answers here. Based off my memory and no recent testing:

First, if you read Twin Blade and Blunt it says "Each axe gives your MELEE attacks a 8% chance to bleed enemies for ___ Physical Damage over 6 seconds."

That means all Light/Heavy attacks from both weapons, it doesn't matter what animation you see and whether you hit with your main or offhand more often, it's just 8% to all Light/Heavy attacks. Heavy attacks do not count as 2 hits. Since the axe bleed doesn't stack and only refreshes the duration if procced when it's already up, 16% with 2 axes is overkill, thus 1 dagger, 1 axe is bis for single target.

This was dropped for 2x daggers before this patch because bleeds were nerfed, now that they're mitigated by resistance, they've been buffed by 24% and have become more viable than before since you aim to fully penetrate a boss in pve anyway.

The one thing I can't remember, is if Melee Weapon Abilities like Flurry, Twin Slashes, Cleave, Uppercut, etc, proc the Axe bleed, but let's just assume it's only Light/Heavy attacks.

Secondly, the reason you use Nirn on your main hand and not off hand is because you get 100% of the damage from the main hand weapon, but only 6% of your offhand weapon. This is why you slot traits on your offhand like Precise, Infused, Sharpened, etc, because Nirn in main hand is just too powerful to pass up giving +200 weapon/spell damage.

This is what makes having a fully golded out or nirn offhand weapon kind of neglagible.. 6% of 200 is 12 damage. Do you really want to waste a nirn trait on +12 damage?

So the position of your Dagger/Axe does not matter, but the position of Nirn does. Always main hand.

Enchants proc from Light/Heavy/Weapon Abilities which is only from the Direct Damage portion or Ground Based AOE DOTS. Since DW does not have a Ground AOE DOT, ZOS coded in the exception for Blade Cloak to proc enchantments too.

So you can use Blade Cloak, Wall of Elements, Stampede or Volley to proc back bar Enchantments on CD easily, when on front bar.

If anything is wrong, feel free to correct me, but this is my understanding.

You're confusing the off-hand damage (20%) with the Dual Wield Expert 2 passive, which increases your off-hand damage by 6% (=26%). But unless something's changed, it was established long ago that the main hand actually strikes more often than the off hand and that fact plays a part into what triggers what. Yes, Nirn on the main.

RodneyRegis

Ok, so nirn on the main is a given - but axe
dagger or dagger/axe makes no difference, even though the axe strikes less often on off hand? Perfect!

kylewwefan

I think on dummy testing with perfect weaving and stuff, the axe/ dagger combo looks better probably because of weaving and such. But the extra Crit from daggers pulls ahead in real practice. And I think the meta for offhand is Precise now too again for more Crit. and also using double dot poisons.

There is some undeniable power in meta, if you choose to follow it.

RodneyRegis

Yes, try and follow meta traits. Just can't use relequen effectively!