Why was Mannimarco a companions if he had been expelled from Psijic order for necromancy?
Jayman1000
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I just saw the info in a loading screen and then I wondered, why did they keep Mannimarco around as such a trusted companion if Vanus Galerion had him expelled from the Psijic order for conducting forbidden experiments with Necromancy?? Is this a glaring plot hole, or am I missing something?
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chuck-18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭I mean, I doubt Mannimarco was exactly forthcoming about his past, and the Psijjic Order has been in hiding for a while now, so there wouldn't be anyone around to dispute him with the exception of Vanus Galerion, who seems to be more interested in his own work than with following Imperial politics.The Exclusionary Mandates of Maruhkite Selection: All Are Equal
1: That the Supreme Spirit Akatosh is of unitary essence, as proven by the monolinearity of Time.
1: That Shezarr the missing sibling is Singularly Misplaced and therefore Doubly Venerated.
1: That the protean substrate that informs all denial of (1) is the Aldmeri Taint.
1: That the Prophet Most Simian demonstrated that monothought begets Proper-Life.
1: That the purpose of Proper-Life is the Expungement of the Taint.
1: That the Arc of Time provides the mortal theater for the Sacred Expungement.
1: That Akatosh is Time is Proper-Life is Taint-Death.10 -
Dark_Lord_Kuro✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Jayman1000 wrote: »I just saw the info in a loading screen and then I wondered, why did they keep Mannimarco around as such a trusted companion if Vanus Galerion had him expelled from the Psijic order for conducting forbidden experiments with Necromancy?? Is this a glaring plot hole, or am I missing something?
Maybe they didnt know?they dont have the almighty loadsreen lore knowledge19 -
SassiestAssassin✭✭✭I don’t think the Psijics told anyone.
There was a quest about it in Artaeum that showed glimpses into the past. IIRC Vanus was angry that Iachesus expelled Mannimarco into the world without warning anyone outside Artaeum. I think it was one of the reasons Vanus left the Order later on, and by that time Mannimarco already betrayed the Companions.*slams a gallon of Respecting Support Roles juice on the table* Take a sip, babes.8 -
Vulsahdaal✭✭✭✭✭
✭Despite necromancy being banned in the Psijic Order, I dont believe it was illegal in Cyrodiil at that time.
Perhaps Varen thought Mannimarco's knowledge could be useful to him in becoming and functioning as an Emperor? Thats my take on it anyway..9 -
Jayman1000✭✭✭✭✭
✭SassiestAssassin wrote: »I don’t think the Psijics told anyone.
There was a quest about it in Artaeum that showed glimpses into the past. IIRC Vanus was angry that Iachesus expelled Mannimarco into the world without warning anyone outside Artaeum. I think it was one of the reasons Vanus left the Order later on, and by that time Mannimarco already betrayed the Companions.
That's interesting. Why Vanus then didn't warn people himself then is anyones question.2 -
Jayman1000✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vulsahdaal wrote: »Despite necromancy being banned in the Psijic Order, I dont believe it was illegal in Cyrodiil at that time.
Perhaps Varen thought Mannimarco's knowledge could be useful to him in becoming and functioning as an Emperor? Thats my take on it anyway..
That's a good point. Im propably also mixing up dates because I read that Vanus led mages guild in an attack on Mannimarco and his cult. But maybe this was then after the betrayal of the companions?0 -
SassiestAssassin✭✭✭Jayman1000 wrote: »SassiestAssassin wrote: »I don’t think the Psijics told anyone.
There was a quest about it in Artaeum that showed glimpses into the past. IIRC Vanus was angry that Iachesus expelled Mannimarco into the world without warning anyone outside Artaeum. I think it was one of the reasons Vanus left the Order later on, and by that time Mannimarco already betrayed the Companions.
That's interesting. Why Vanus then didn't warn people himself then is anyones question.
My theory is that at first he was just obeying Iachesis, though disillusioned nonetheless.
I don’t know the timeline of how long after that he left Artaeum to found the Mage’s Guild and why he didn’t spread the word after.
Could it have been leftover guilt over their friendship? Or did he only leace Artaeum after Mannimarco’s villainous debut?
It’s also fair to say that in his vanity, Vanus believed he could’ve stopped Mannimarco by himself, if he ever made an appearance.
Edit:
here’s the quest I was thinking of, I think I made it a bit more elaborate than it actually was-
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Half-Formed_UnderstandingsEdited by SassiestAssassin on August 9, 2019 8:58PM*slams a gallon of Respecting Support Roles juice on the table* Take a sip, babes.3 -
ghastley✭✭✭✭✭
✭The Psijics were keeping themselves to themselves, and would not have communicated with Varen, even if they considered him worthy of notice. Tharn wouldn't consider a necromancer as a problem, being one himself, and the other companions probably had no opinion.
We also don't know Varen's opinion of the Psijics. If he distrusted their motives, he'd possibly have been sympathetic to Mannimarco - enemy of my enemy = friend.2 -
Aznarb✭✭✭✭✭
✭Hum, are you sure about Psijic ? Cuz Vanus Galérion is the creator of the Mage Guild and he's not a Psijic.
He got expelled from Psijic too but not from Vanus iirc.Edited by Aznarb on August 9, 2019 8:43PM[ PC EU ]
[ Khuram-dar ]
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[Crazy Gatherer & Compulsive Thief]0 -
redgreensunset✭✭✭✭✭
✭@Aznarb Vanus Galerion, one of the founders of the Mage Guild started out as a Psijic but left of his own volition.. He and the Psijic Order is no longer on the best of terms because of that.0 -
Ardaghion✭✭✭✭Where is it said that Abnur Tharn dabbles in Necromancy? He refers to it's use in the Elsweyr quest as "distasteful".0 -
BigBragg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Where is it said that Abnur Tharn dabbles in Necromancy? He refers to it's use in the Elsweyr quest as "distasteful".
He teaches the player to summon a flesh atronach in one of the main quests. At which point he states, "We'll make a necromancer out of you yet."Edited by BigBragg on August 9, 2019 9:24PM10 -
NotaDaedraWorshipper✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Where is it said that Abnur Tharn dabbles in Necromancy? He refers to it's use in the Elsweyr quest as "distasteful".
He probably means the way they are using necromancy, and not the necromancy itself. Like how a driver can comment about someone else's reckess driving.
And him being a necromancer is mentioned several times throughout the mainstory.Edited by NotaDaedraWorshipper on August 9, 2019 9:36PM[Lie] Of course! I don't even worship Daedra!3 -
Bouldercleave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭What's worse is KNOWING that I'm a Master thief, member of the Dark Brotherhood, AND a currently avid user of necromancy in it's purest state - Hell, they helped while I beat Mannimarco with (wait for it).... Necromancy.
They STILL invited me to become a member of the new companions.
It's like they never learn.
Edited by Bouldercleave on August 9, 2019 10:15PM8 -
Ardaghion✭✭✭✭NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »
Right, but is there some lore that states he's a necromancer? He's listed as a Battle Mage in most of the stuff I've read.2 -
NotaDaedraWorshipper✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »
Right, but is there some lore that states he's a necromancer? He's listed as a Battle Mage in most of the stuff I've read.
I edited in a bit late that it's mentioned throughout the mainstory. I can't remember where but I knew he was one from just doing the main story.[Lie] Of course! I don't even worship Daedra!0 -
Ardaghion✭✭✭✭NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »
Right, but is there some lore that states he's a necromancer? He's listed as a Battle Mage in most of the stuff I've read.
I edited in a bit late that it's mentioned throughout the mainstory. I can't remember where but I knew he was one from just doing the main story.
I'll take your word for it, I do remember him instructing the Vestige on making a Flesh Atronach but I don't remember any direct statement by him or anyone else that he practices necromancy. Doing some searches, it looks like there have been quite a few arguments about his status in this regard. Of course, he's a terrible person so I wouldn't put it past him to use necromantic spells if they benefited him.0 -
chuck-18_ESO✭✭✭✭✭Right, but is there some lore that states he's a necromancer? He's listed as a Battle Mage in most of the stuff I've read.
Titles like this are really pointless to a mage like Abnur Tharn. He has wielded and studied magic for over 150 years. He knows the magic of necromancy, and he knows war magic; he probably knows a little about almost all forms of magic, and is probably extremely adept at multiple schools and forms of magic. Heck, his ancestor is responsible for one of the most esoteric and heady magical texts in the game (On the Detachment of the Sheath).
Edited by chuck-18_ESO on August 9, 2019 10:01PMThe Exclusionary Mandates of Maruhkite Selection: All Are Equal
1: That the Supreme Spirit Akatosh is of unitary essence, as proven by the monolinearity of Time.
1: That Shezarr the missing sibling is Singularly Misplaced and therefore Doubly Venerated.
1: That the protean substrate that informs all denial of (1) is the Aldmeri Taint.
1: That the Prophet Most Simian demonstrated that monothought begets Proper-Life.
1: That the purpose of Proper-Life is the Expungement of the Taint.
1: That the Arc of Time provides the mortal theater for the Sacred Expungement.
1: That Akatosh is Time is Proper-Life is Taint-Death.2 -
Danikat✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »
Right, but is there some lore that states he's a necromancer? He's listed as a Battle Mage in most of the stuff I've read.
Tharn was the Imperial Battlemage, but that just means he's a mage who specialises in using magic in combat and would be expected to lead the Empire's armies, especially the other battlemages and advise on any use of magic in war (both how the Imperials should use it and how their enemies are likely to use it).
Like the player character battlemages are likely to specialise in spells which can be cast quickly and don't require a dedicated space, lots of carefully arranged artefacts and quiet concentration because that would be impractical in battle, but they can use any type or school of magic (along with weapons and heavy armour which other mages may not use at all).
In both Morrowind and Oblivion the battlemage 'class' used alteration, mysticism and conjuration - which are often pretty closely associated with necromancy, at least by non-mages.PC EU player | She/her/hers | PAWS (Positively Against Wrip-off Stuff) - Say No to Crown Crates!
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BigBragg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »
Right, but is there some lore that states he's a necromancer? He's listed as a Battle Mage in most of the stuff I've read.
I edited in a bit late that it's mentioned throughout the mainstory. I can't remember where but I knew he was one from just doing the main story.
I'll take your word for it, I do remember him instructing the Vestige on making a Flesh Atronach but I don't remember any direct statement by him or anyone else that he practices necromancy. Doing some searches, it looks like there have been quite a few arguments about his status in this regard. Of course, he's a terrible person so I wouldn't put it past him to use necromantic spells if they benefited him.
Do you think he could teach the vestige how to do so if he didn't have knowledge on the subject? Ergo dabbling in necromancy. Never said it was his main school, just one that he knew how to use.3 -
Vulsahdaal✭✭✭✭✭
✭NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »
Right, but is there some lore that states he's a necromancer? He's listed as a Battle Mage in most of the stuff I've read.
Abnur himself admits to dabbling in necromancy if your character admits to it first.
But yeah, I wouldnt call him a necromancer. Battlemage seems a more correct description.
Edited by Vulsahdaal on August 9, 2019 10:25PM2 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Vanus would be the first one to admit that he let his ambition cloud his sense. And like many (if not most) people convinced of their own righteousness, he was able to overlook the evil of acts in the service of his cause--because acts in the service of his cause seemed inherently good to him."A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle1 -
Ardaghion✭✭✭✭NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »
Right, but is there some lore that states he's a necromancer? He's listed as a Battle Mage in most of the stuff I've read.
I edited in a bit late that it's mentioned throughout the mainstory. I can't remember where but I knew he was one from just doing the main story.
I'll take your word for it, I do remember him instructing the Vestige on making a Flesh Atronach but I don't remember any direct statement by him or anyone else that he practices necromancy. Doing some searches, it looks like there have been quite a few arguments about his status in this regard. Of course, he's a terrible person so I wouldn't put it past him to use necromantic spells if they benefited him.
Do you think he could teach the vestige how to do so if he didn't have knowledge on the subject? Ergo dabbling in necromancy. Never said it was his main school, just one that he knew how to use.
Nah, I thought maybe there was a Flesh Atronach assembly guide in his prison cell, light reading from Mannimarco.1 -
daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
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Necromancy is mostly frowned upon and at times banned, but that isn't the case at all times.Jayman1000 wrote: »I just saw the info in a loading screen and then I wondered, why did they keep Mannimarco around as such a trusted companion if Vanus Galerion had him expelled from the Psijic order for conducting forbidden experiments with Necromancy?? Is this a glaring plot hole, or am I missing something?
In any case, IIRC Mannimarco was made a companion after he fooled the others into trusting him with the promise that he'd help Varen Aquilarios claim his right as Tiber Septim's heir. In reality what he wanted was to create the plane meld, allowing Molag Bal to invade Tamriel, and also to get his hands on the Amulet of Kings so he could subdue Molag Bal and take his place as a deity.1 -
Jayman1000✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bouldercleave wrote: »What's worse is KNOWING that I'm a Master thief, member of the Dark Brotherhood, AND a currently avid user of necromancy in it's purest state - Hell, they helped while I beat Mannimarco with (wait for it).... Necromancy.
They STILL invited me to become a member of the new companions.
It's like they never learn.
haha, how awesome. that's a well put twist0 -
Robo_Hobo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Jayman1000 wrote: »Vulsahdaal wrote: »Despite necromancy being banned in the Psijic Order, I dont believe it was illegal in Cyrodiil at that time.
Perhaps Varen thought Mannimarco's knowledge could be useful to him in becoming and functioning as an Emperor? Thats my take on it anyway..
That's a good point. Im propably also mixing up dates because I read that Vanus led mages guild in an attack on Mannimarco and his cult. But maybe this was then after the betrayal of the companions?
Yeah Vanus's guild mage attack on Mannimarco won't happen for some unknown amount of time after the events of ESO, because Vanus dies in that battle.1 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Necromancy
(interesting sections for this thread #history)
Imperials don't really look negatively on necromancy, even in later eras. It's a dark art, but not wholly evil from an imperial mindset.
Politics during the 3 banners war also plays a part.The Empire has been known to hire at least a few necromancers, who are given the corpses of criminals and traitors to use legally in the pursuit of their craft. During the Alliance War circa 2E 582, the Mages Guild was in disgrace in Cyrodiil and banished from the Imperial City
As for Abnur Tharn. I can imagine his thinking being along the line of, 'if it gets the job done...'Edited by mairwen85 on August 10, 2019 6:52AM0
