Puncturing Strikes
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Jabbs_Giggity
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Current Tooltip of Puncturing Strikes states Launch an endless assault, striking enemies in front of you four times with your Aedric Spear. The spear deals 298 Magic Damage to the closest enemy and 114 Magic Damage to all other enemies. <> The final strike reduces the Movement Speed of the closest enemy by 70% for 2 seconds.
Please note, this is not requesting a nerf nor a buff.
With the changes to the camera panning/targeting in Murkmire on Puncturing Strikes, the skill became somewhat viable again in high mobility gameplay. For those who do not play Templar often or have not played prior to Murkmire, this skill was a nightmare to slot as a Class spammable. The change to how this skill operates as a conal channel in Murkmire is probably the best change made to Templar in years. Now, ZOS is reverting this...
Per PTS Patch Notes v5.1.1
I am not sure how often, if at all, anyone from ZOS has checked Class Rep: Templar Feedback Thread recently. However, if you go back to pre-Murkmire you will notice this nuance was among the #1 pain point for 90% of Templars who slot PS as their spammable. Yes, end-game PVE has adapted to swapping PS for Elemental Weapon - this isn't the point. Reverting this change without any form of compensation will either cause the melee Templar population to either die out or be forced to Weapon Skill Lines only - like Stam Sorcs and Stam DK's and Stam Warden's (to an extent). The difference in going this route (Weapon Skill Lines) for Stamplar is that the class does not have the proper utility tools to rely on a non-class spammable like other classes can.
Aside from the camera revert, ZOS has made plenty of "Class exceptions" for skills. Some even for Templar...However, the way PS is coded (whether bug or intentional) is that it counts as both Direct Damage and Damage over Time (albeit channeled single target/AOE). There are too many things going on with this skill. Major Evasion hits this skill extremely hard as a counterplay. It's one of the few, if not only, spammable AOE that can break cloak. I am netiher for nor against that argument...
However, many feedbacks have been proposed to change the skill function. Here are my thoughts:
[Launch an endless assault, striking a targeted enemy in front of you four times with your Aedric Spear. The spear deals 298 Magic Damage to the targeted enemy and 114 Magic Damage to all other enemies within 3 meters. <> The final strike reduces the Movement Speed of the closest enemy by 70% for 2 seconds/i]
^Remove the Snare completely from base skill > add effect to Morphs to compensate or Snare on first strike, but reduce the Snare to 25%
Possible effect: If target is struck with all four strikes, cause enemy to Bleed for X damage over X seconds.
Please note, this is not requesting a nerf nor a buff.
With the changes to the camera panning/targeting in Murkmire on Puncturing Strikes, the skill became somewhat viable again in high mobility gameplay. For those who do not play Templar often or have not played prior to Murkmire, this skill was a nightmare to slot as a Class spammable. The change to how this skill operates as a conal channel in Murkmire is probably the best change made to Templar in years. Now, ZOS is reverting this...
Per PTS Patch Notes v5.1.1
Templar
Aedric Spear
Puncturing Strikes: This ability and its morphs will now use an older version of camera controls, predating the adjustments with Murkmire. This was done to prevent many of the errors occurring explicitly with gamepad mode.
I am not sure how often, if at all, anyone from ZOS has checked Class Rep: Templar Feedback Thread recently. However, if you go back to pre-Murkmire you will notice this nuance was among the #1 pain point for 90% of Templars who slot PS as their spammable. Yes, end-game PVE has adapted to swapping PS for Elemental Weapon - this isn't the point. Reverting this change without any form of compensation will either cause the melee Templar population to either die out or be forced to Weapon Skill Lines only - like Stam Sorcs and Stam DK's and Stam Warden's (to an extent). The difference in going this route (Weapon Skill Lines) for Stamplar is that the class does not have the proper utility tools to rely on a non-class spammable like other classes can.
Aside from the camera revert, ZOS has made plenty of "Class exceptions" for skills. Some even for Templar...However, the way PS is coded (whether bug or intentional) is that it counts as both Direct Damage and Damage over Time (albeit channeled single target/AOE). There are too many things going on with this skill. Major Evasion hits this skill extremely hard as a counterplay. It's one of the few, if not only, spammable AOE that can break cloak. I am netiher for nor against that argument...
However, many feedbacks have been proposed to change the skill function. Here are my thoughts:
[Launch an endless assault, striking a targeted enemy in front of you four times with your Aedric Spear. The spear deals 298 Magic Damage to the targeted enemy and 114 Magic Damage to all other enemies within 3 meters. <> The final strike reduces the Movement Speed of the closest enemy by 70% for 2 seconds/i]
^Remove the Snare completely from base skill > add effect to Morphs to compensate or Snare on first strike, but reduce the Snare to 25%
Possible effect: If target is struck with all four strikes, cause enemy to Bleed for X damage over X seconds.
1
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Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭I won't slot it anymore in PvP, I'll likely switch to force pulse.
For Magplar, yes. However, not having a "melee" spammable slotted anymore, let alone one from Aedric Spear line will pretty much negate all opportunity to take advantage of new changes to the Class skills...
1. How will you proc burning light for DPS? Are you going to use Spear Shards or Javelin?
2. Where will you get your Minor Protection from? Are you going to use Spear Shards or Javelin, or get from another skill/set?
3. What's the point of Focused Charge being buffed if you're attacking from range...
4. Which Aedric Skill will you slot to get Piercing Wall passive for Crit Bonus? Would you still use Crescent Sweep or switch to Meteor?
Unslotting Puncturing Strikes (Stam or Mag) has huge downsides in PVP for Templar. Not saying other sources of spammable won't work, but it pulls you away from the Templar identity and forces you to optimize from too many other skill lines/sets.
Just my .021 -
Jimmy_The_Fixer✭✭✭✭✭Old Jabs was completely unusable while rooted, you couldn’t use the ability against a number of classes.0 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭Jimmy_The_Fixer wrote: »Old Jabs was completely unusable while rooted, you couldn’t use the ability against a number of classes.
With the Root/Snare Meta still plenty abundant in open world this is going to be an issue for a lot of players. ZOS seems to slowly be phasing out Templar in favor of newer classes > Necro is a copy&paste dark Templar and Warden was a sad attempt to replace Templar as the new "healer meta".
Not sure what the direction is with this class, let alone all classes at this point. But breaking something that's working better than the previous version doesn't seem like the best solution?1 -
Nirnroot420✭✭✭Yeah, I'm not entirely sure the logic behind this. If there's a problem with gamepads, reverting this skill isn't going to help it's use on the people who use controllers, because the skill is apparently non-viable to them either way, as the old way of using Sweeps was horrendous, annoying, and ineffective. Like you mentioned earlier, this negates the buff to Toppling Charge almost completely, and makes Templar a pretty heavily nerfed class this patch. Living Dark doesn't matter at all if our class spammable is becoming absolutely unusable again.
So ZoS' solution is to break the skill for everyone, because they somehow broke the game for people using gamepads. Some brilliant balancing, thought, and mechanics being brought to the fore here, lads.0 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭Nirnroot420 wrote: »Yeah, I'm not entirely sure the logic behind this. If there's a problem with gamepads, reverting this skill isn't going to help it's use on the people who use controllers, because the skill is apparently non-viable to them either way, as the old way of using Sweeps was horrendous, annoying, and ineffective. Like you mentioned earlier, this negates the buff to Toppling Charge almost completely, and makes Templar a pretty heavily nerfed class this patch. Living Dark doesn't matter at all if our class spammable is becoming absolutely unusable again.
So ZoS' solution is to break the skill for everyone, because they somehow broke the game for people using gamepads. Some brilliant balancing, thought, and mechanics being brought to the fore here, lads.
Dont worry, Living Dark isn't even functioning as intended lolEclipse still terribly bugged.
Both morphs still doesn't proc on direct damage proc sets:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKz3N5xI5jg
Unstable Core still doesn't proc when target immune to CC effects:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s98gr6nF6P0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySegZWRahkg
Both morphs still doesn't proc on channeled spammable attacks:
It is very disfunctional at this state.
Also, if gamepad has such issues with the current skill state why has there been virtually ZERO feedback about it...0 -
No_Division✭✭✭ways around the root abuse:
- escapist poisons. If someone calls you a salty player in a duel, whatever this game sucks for dueling lol
- mist/rat. don't just attack your target head on, fight them from the back like the DK would to you. Forces them to turn around giving you time to hit mist/rat again.
- switch to force pulse or add dark flare. Both can be cast behind you and while your DK is smacking you, you can pressure enough to force them to stop spaming talons.
- pray it isnt a sorc/necro. Nothing worse than a ranged root .
- swap to more mixed melee/range templars. Templar's strength rests in its ability to seamlessly switch from melee to range. Only commit to jabs use under 50%+cc'd; don't rely on it to push targets health down since that's what dots are for.0 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭No_Division wrote: »ways around the root abuse:
- escapist poisons. If someone calls you a salty player in a duel, whatever this game sucks for dueling lol
- mist/rat. don't just attack your target head on, fight them from the back like the DK would to you. Forces them to turn around giving you time to hit mist/rat again.
- switch to force pulse or add dark flare. Both can be cast behind you and while your DK is smacking you, you can pressure enough to force them to stop spaming talons.
- pray it isnt a sorc/necro. Nothing worse than a ranged root .
- swap to more mixed melee/range templars. Templar's strength rests in its ability to seamlessly switch from melee to range. Only commit to jabs use under 50%+cc'd; don't rely on it to push targets health down since that's what dots are for.
Agreed with all of that. However for Stamina spec (which is my main-Mag is secondary) this is not as viable. Bow is the only option for ranged but you lose too much with this as I rely on Major Protecting from BRP DW on my build. Refuse to switch to Flurry or Dizzy.0 -
No_Division✭✭✭Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »
Agreed with all of that. However for Stamina spec (which is my main-Mag is secondary) this is not as viable. Bow is the only option for ranged but you lose too much with this as I rely on Major Protecting from BRP DW on my build. Refuse to switch to Flurry or Dizzy.
dodge roll provides immunity at no skill opportunity cost.0 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭No_Division wrote: »
dodge roll provides immunity at no skill opportunity cost.
Yep. I utilize that too. The post is intended toward PS specifically though. You're mostly touching on survivability, not damaging with a wet noodle, or back to even damaging at all lol0 -
akray21✭✭✭✭✭Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »
For Magplar, yes. However, not having a "melee" spammable slotted anymore, let alone one from Aedric Spear line will pretty much negate all opportunity to take advantage of new changes to the Class skills...
1. How will you proc burning light for DPS? Are you going to use Spear Shards or Javelin?
2. Where will you get your Minor Protection from? Are you going to use Spear Shards or Javelin, or get from another skill/set?
3. What's the point of Focused Charge being buffed if you're attacking from range...
4. Which Aedric Skill will you slot to get Piercing Wall passive for Crit Bonus? Would you still use Crescent Sweep or switch to Meteor?
Unslotting Puncturing Strikes (Stam or Mag) has huge downsides in PVP for Templar. Not saying other sources of spammable won't work, but it pulls you away from the Templar identity and forces you to optimize from too many other skill lines/sets.
Just my .02
Probably switch destructive clench/jabs with javelin/force pulse. Also probably switch the lighting staff for a fire staff. Dot the enemy up to reach max purifying light burst, and then execute.1 -
No_Division✭✭✭Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »
Yep. I utilize that too. The post is intended toward PS specifically though. You're mostly touching on survivability, not damaging with a wet noodle, or back to even damaging at all lol
can't do much except get them to revert evasion. It still does AOE dmg which is kinda nice when you are about to get dogpiled on.
force pulse/javelin are much better dmg, but you have to single out targets and so far nothing in the templar kit suggests ways to do that efficiently. maybe living dark might with immobilze, but you dont have sp[eed and your defense is eh on templar. Not to mention force pulse/javelin are entirely doged/blocked and DK's running wings will make all that feel just as impactful as jabs lol.1 -
No_Division✭✭✭here's a thought, but I need to see tooltip on shock clench. Can someone post that for me fully buffed?0
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Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭No_Division wrote: »
can't do much except get them to revert evasion. It still does AOE dmg which is kinda nice when you are about to get dogpiled on.
force pulse/javelin are much better dmg, but you have to single out targets and so far nothing in the templar kit suggests ways to do that efficiently. maybe living dark might with immobilze, but you dont have sp[eed and your defense is eh on templar. Not to mention force pulse/javelin are entirely doged/blocked and DK's running wings will make all that feel just as impactful as jabs lol.
I would take Minor Expedition for 2 sec upon activating PS over Snare anyday. But not running our spammable in melee range severely puts the class at uneven odds against other classes because as you stated above - our defense is meh and without the minor protection proc it will be worse and our speed is among the slowest so it's much easier for other classes to walk up on us trying to attack from range than if you were to close the gap on a Sorc or NB or Warden. DK's are still way faster than Templars but don't even need the speed because they can build to be tanky and put out damage.
I don't know the answer, but Templar seriously needs some love. For all the people saying that Templars are gonna rock next patch I truly don't think they looked at patch notes very closely.
Heavy damage nerfs accross majority of skills used by Templars and the revert to PS is going to hurt bad...I summed it up in another thread already, but see below:Aedric Spear- Puncturing Strikes got a buff to cost of ability. v5.1.0
- Puncturing Strikes got a nerf to camera revert to pre-Murkmire. v5.1.1
- Spear Shards got a buff to cost of ability. v5.1.0
- Spear Shards got a nerf to damage by 37% - Additional nerf to Blazing Spear by 42% v5.1.0
- Spear Wall (Passive) got a buff to duration 3/6 seconds. v5.1.0
Dawn's Wrath- Eclipse was reworked, but according to @Cinbri this skill is not functioning as intended on PTS (linked below). v5.1.0
- Living Dark got a healing nerf by 55%. v5.1.1
- Dark Flare got a damage buff by 4%. v5.1.0
- Solar Barrage got a damage nerf by 33%.
- Sunfire got a buff to cost of ability. v5.1.0
- Sunfire got a damage buff by 17% for DoT, but got a damage nerf by 17% to initial hit. v5.1.0
- Backlash got a healing nerf by 29%. v5.1.0
- Cleansing Ritual got a healing buff by 95%. v5.1.0
- Cleansing Ritual got a nerf to cost of ability. v5.1.0
So, altogether Templar received 7 buffs (mostly skill costs, a damage increase of 4% and 17% and healing of 95% to Ritual which is still below par being at 2s tick intervals vs 1s tick intervals) and 8 nerfs (4 nerfs were reduced by 17%-39%, 2 were above 40% reduction).1 -
No_Division✭✭✭Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »
I would take Minor Expedition for 2 sec upon activating PS over Snare anyday. But not running our spammable in melee range severely puts the class at uneven odds against other classes because as you stated above - our defense is meh and without the minor protection proc it will be worse and our speed is among the slowest so it's much easier for other classes to walk up on us trying to attack from range than if you were to close the gap on a Sorc or NB or Warden. DK's are still way faster than Templars but don't even need the speed because they can build to be tanky and put out damage.
I don't know the answer, but Templar seriously needs some love. For all the people saying that Templars are gonna rock next patch I truly don't think they looked at patch notes very closely.
Heavy damage nerfs accross majority of skills used by Templars and the revert to PS is going to hurt bad...I summed it up in another thread already, but see below:
they got balanced out due to skill audit which wasnt surprising. Only thing missing is bug fixes for eclipse as cinbri pointed out.0 -
Nirnroot420✭✭✭Sweeps is one of my favorite skills. I hope it it still decent to use.
It won't be. The way it worked pre-Murkmire was if you were immobilized by say, a DK, you couldn't rotate to hit them with your jabs/sweeps. They changed this up by fixing it so you could rotate while immobilized, thusly not being a sitting duck or using a purge to free yourself to actually attack.
So, once again, since apparently people who use controllers have a hard time with this skill (versus having no reason to equip it, which is what this reversion does) they reverted it back to where we can't use our class spammable if we're immobilized, unless the genius who rooted us sits directly in front of us and never moves.1 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'll still use it and see how it feels. I keep RAT going pretty obsessively. Stamplar I'd use the new shuffle, run fortified and go full med.0 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭I'll still use it and see how it feels. I keep RAT going pretty obsessively. Stamplar I'd use the new shuffle, run fortified and go full med.
I ran fortified and BP for a while. It's okay but you miss out on huge burst opportunties. Spamming RAT next patch on stamplar wont be as viable next patch due to the increased cost of cleanse.0 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭Nirnroot420 wrote: »
It won't be. The way it worked pre-Murkmire was if you were immobilized by say, a DK, you couldn't rotate to hit them with your jabs/sweeps. They changed this up by fixing it so you could rotate while immobilized, thusly not being a sitting duck or using a purge to free yourself to actually attack.
So, once again, since apparently people who use controllers have a hard time with this skill (versus having no reason to equip it, which is what this reversion does) they reverted it back to where we can't use our class spammable if we're immobilized, unless the genius who rooted us sits directly in front of us and never moves.
The other issue was introduction of high mobility combat. Old sweeps just couldn't keep up with keeping your target in the hitbox window if moving.0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »
I ran fortified and BP for a while. It's okay but you miss out on huge burst opportunties. Spamming RAT next patch on stamplar wont be as viable next patch due to the increased cost of cleanse.
Well yeah. I meant RAT for magicka but for stamplar, it is harder to go for fortified and build enough damage and sustain as you dont get the extra magicka steal a magplar uses to ignore some sustain. why I've kind of been back on magplar and running a stam DK.
Without about trying a minimal recovery, full damage stamplar and repentance relying on a quick kill, but repentance seems pretty weak in the resource return to me. It's like 2/3 the cost of an average stam attack returned and you wont be killing even the squishy targets with 1 shot.Edited by technohic on August 2, 2019 2:01PM0 -
Jabbs_Giggity✭✭✭✭✭
Well yeah. I meant RAT for magicka but for stamplar, it is harder to go for fortified and build enough damage and sustain as you dont get the extra magicka steal a magplar uses to ignore some sustain. why I've kind of been back on magplar and running a stam DK.
Without about trying a minimal recovery, full damage stamplar and repentance relying on a quick kill, but repentance seems pretty weak in the resource return to me. It's like 2/3 the cost of an average stam attack returned and you wont be killing even the squishy targets with 1 shot.
Yeah, unless you're zerg surfing Repent is only good for one thing - tri recovery passive. However, I was planning to drop Repent for Turn Evil and drop Spear which will open up 2 slots for me. I'll get Major and Minor Protection on backbar (BRP DW) while retaining the Minor Endurance and gaining an AOE CC. This is a plus for me and other Stamplars if chosen to run this way.
The problem now goes back to wether or not Jabs will still be a viable spammable come next patch.
Also, Templars need some build in speed with their toolkit...It's time to change. I chased down a StamDK from Bruma to Bleaks (without a gap closer) by using only Major Expedition from Quick Cloak and Sprint while tossing in some spears to slow him down and CC and swear to God I could even then barely keep up...by the time I did catch up he just turned around with charged up Fury D-Swing, Leap, Slice. Had no Stam to Vigor or Rally. Game Over.
My fault of couse for chasing...I had already beaten two of his 3man group so I wanted to finish. lol0
