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Completed vAA HM without a healer (accidentally): Why incoming damage shouldn't be lowered in PvE

SaltySudd
SaltySudd
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Last night I ran vAA HM with my guild for a quick score run so we only took one healer. However, during the final boss fight the healer was knocked off (or fell). We figured that we'd wipe, but we kept going just to build ulti for the second attempt. However, we realized that nobody was dying due to the DPS simply adding vigor and Twilight Matriarchs into their rotation. We reached execute and then decided to just go for it. During execute there was even still a reflection up, but we still managed to clear HM despite not having a healer.

While it was funny in the moment, it felt wrong.

A veteran hardmode trial boss should not be completable without a healer. With the changes coming to healing in the next Update I am really becoming concerned about where healing as a role is going to fit into PvE endgame if the DPS will be able to survive without one. This is exactly why the content should not be adjusted to compensate for the upcoming nerfs to healing. If the incoming damage is reduced to compensate it will make things even easier for groups to complete content without dedicated healers.

The reason it's easier to run most vet HM dungeons without a healer is because with 3 DPS you can skip mechanics, kill things before they have a chance to kill or damage you, and shorten fights due to the high amount of damage. If it gets to the point where even vet HM trials can be completed without healers, then of course groups are going to start running only DPS and tanks for the same logic that they do in dungeons. Why bring along two healers when you can just bring two extra DPS to burn through the content quicker?

This is an MMORPG. The genre has been built around the "holy trinity" of DPS, healers, and tanks. If one of those roles becomes nonessential or even discouraged, then you have removed one of the foundational elements to having an MMO. I sincerely hope that is not the direction that ESO is heading.
Stop exploiting players.
PC NA: CP 810+
Xbox NA: CP 810+
Closed beta
| vMA Flawless | vDSA | vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL | vHoF | vAS+2 | vCR | vSS HM |
| DK tank | Warden tank | NB tank | Templar healer | Warden healer | Magsorc | Magblade | Magplar | Crafter |
  • SaltySudd
    SaltySudd
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    kylewwefan wrote: »
    It never occurred to you that maybe your team is just OP AF?

    Believe me, we weren't lol. There had already been several silly and 100% avoidable deaths earlier in the run such as players forgetting to get out of stack during the stone atro fight which killed like half the group (which was hilarious to back out and watch half of the group suddenly get deleted).
    Stop exploiting players.
    PC NA: CP 810+
    Xbox NA: CP 810+
    Closed beta
    | vMA Flawless | vDSA | vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL | vHoF | vAS+2 | vCR | vSS HM |
    | DK tank | Warden tank | NB tank | Templar healer | Warden healer | Magsorc | Magblade | Magplar | Crafter |
  • paulsimonps
    paulsimonps
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    Others have said similar things about next update, if you manage to build the group so that some if not all of the utility skills and sets go to some of the DPS then you need no Healer as long as certain AoE heals and self heals are part of your rotation, especially those that heal and damage.
  • WuffyCerulei
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    Funny enough that Matriarch’s damage is gonna be nerfed into hell next patch. Most people aren’t worried about old content. It’s the newer content where it’s get healed or effin die that they’re worried about.
    I will kick everyone's butt, even my own.

    PC NA
    CP 1200+
    Star-Sïnger - Khajiit Magicka Sorc - EP Legate - Flawless Conqueror
    Falls-With-Stars - Argonian Magicka Templar - AD - Former Empress - Voice of Reason
    vMA/vBRP/vDSA no death/vHel Ra HM/vAA HM/vSO HM/vMoL/vHoF HM/vAS +2/vCR+1/vSS/vSS Yol HM
    Dragon-in-Shadows - Argonian Magicka Nightblade - Shadow Breaker
    Eossos - Khajiit Magicka Templar
    Death-Singer - Argonian Magicka Nightblade
    Dark-Star - Khajiit Magicka Dragonknight
    Ice-Dancer - Khajiit Magicka Warden
    Tsalli-ko - Khajiit Stamina Sorcerer
  • SaltySudd
    SaltySudd
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    Others have said similar things about next update, if you manage to build the group so that some if not all of the utility skills and sets go to some of the DPS then you need no Healer as long as certain AoE heals and self heals are part of your rotation, especially those that heal and damage.

    That's exactly what I'm worried about. And here's the thing: Our group wasn't built defensively and we didn't have the buffed Ring of Preservation, Vigor, Cleansing Ritual, and Power Surge that are on the PTS. Since we were able to clear HM without a healer with the group comp that we had, it would have been even easier to do with the upcoming buffs to those skills while also having the DPS geared more defensively.
    Edited by SaltySudd on July 30, 2019 2:00PM
    Stop exploiting players.
    PC NA: CP 810+
    Xbox NA: CP 810+
    Closed beta
    | vMA Flawless | vDSA | vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL | vHoF | vAS+2 | vCR | vSS HM |
    | DK tank | Warden tank | NB tank | Templar healer | Warden healer | Magsorc | Magblade | Magplar | Crafter |
  • Saril_Durzam
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    The funny things is of both heals that can be used there, ZoS is nerfing Matriarch and buffing vigor...
    Edited by Saril_Durzam on July 30, 2019 5:16PM
  • John_Falstaff
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    The funny things is of both heals that can be used there, ZoS is nerfing Matriarch and buffing vigor...

    Granted, they've already declared that they'll be nerfing Vigor back again. ^^
  • idk
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    kylewwefan wrote: »
    It never occurred to you that maybe your team is just OP AF?

    To start off with the average group does not do HM of any trial, not even Craglorn trials. Craglorn trials have been considered easy and pretty boring by a number of competitive raiders. Boring might not be the right word, but close enough.
    Really, idk
  • SodanTok
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    Thats like saying vet trial boss shouldnt be soloable. Sure, it makes sense, but power creep is simply too strong so these things happen and will be happening more and more unless content difficulty is being continuously adjusted.
    Edited by SodanTok on July 31, 2019 9:23PM
    PC | EU | AD
  • Shantu
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    Congrats to the OP for being an awesome player and running with an awesome group, but posts like this are so skewed toward elitism it's ridiculous. 99.9% of players will never do ANY HM vet trial content, let alone without a healer. But since this happened to 1 group in the easiest trial in the game, it's considered a systemic problem that affects the entire game?

    I lead raid groups for lower to upper middle tiered players. Believe me, even in nAA, no one is complaining that healers aren't needed.
  • SaltySudd
    SaltySudd
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    Shantu wrote: »
    Congrats to the OP for being an awesome player and running with an awesome group, but posts like this are so skewed toward elitism it's ridiculous. 99.9% of players will never do ANY HM vet trial content, let alone without a healer. But since this happened to 1 group in the easiest trial in the game, it's considered a systemic problem that affects the entire game?

    I lead raid groups for lower to upper middle tiered players. Believe me, even in nAA, no one is complaining that healers aren't needed.

    You missed the point of this post. I was addressing an issue that @ZOS_BrianWheeler brought up regarding the upcoming nerfs to healing in the next update:

    We're aware that some content has been designed around old functionality of abilities that existed beyond our standards and might need some sort of compromise in regards to how you engage with it and/or how we balance it.

    Due to the nerfs made to healing springs and orbs, it will directly impact vet trials (as Brian said, many of those trials have mechanics which were specifically built around how healing springs functioned). So one of the potential ways of addressing that, according to him, would be lowering the incoming damage that players receive.

    I was addressing the fact that incoming damage should not be lowered to compensate for the nerfs to healing. If the incoming damage is lowered it will only make it easier for groups to complete content without a healer (due to the changes to skills like Ring of Preservation, Vigor, Ritual of Retribution, Power Surge, etc) since it is already possible for groups to clear vet HM without a healer. So if groups can currently complete a vet HM trial, it would be even easier to complete if the incoming damage was lowered.
    Stop exploiting players.
    PC NA: CP 810+
    Xbox NA: CP 810+
    Closed beta
    | vMA Flawless | vDSA | vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL | vHoF | vAS+2 | vCR | vSS HM |
    | DK tank | Warden tank | NB tank | Templar healer | Warden healer | Magsorc | Magblade | Magplar | Crafter |
  • Tabatha
    Tabatha
    How were you able to slot vigor and matriarch skills while in combat?
  • SaltySudd
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    Tabatha wrote: »
    How were you able to slot vigor and matriarch skills while in combat?

    The skills were already slotted by players. Once the healer fell off the map, the DPS just started including them into their rotations.
    Stop exploiting players.
    PC NA: CP 810+
    Xbox NA: CP 810+
    Closed beta
    | vMA Flawless | vDSA | vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL | vHoF | vAS+2 | vCR | vSS HM |
    | DK tank | Warden tank | NB tank | Templar healer | Warden healer | Magsorc | Magblade | Magplar | Crafter |
  • cheifsoap
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    AA HM is not a very good metric, try more difficult content and if you're dead set on crags; go for HRC HM.
  • zvavi
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    Shantu wrote: »
    Congrats to the OP for being an awesome player and running with an awesome group, but posts like this are so skewed toward elitism it's ridiculous. 99.9% of players will never do ANY HM vet trial content, let alone without a healer. But since this happened to 1 group in the easiest trial in the game, it's considered a systemic problem that affects the entire game?

    I lead raid groups for lower to upper middle tiered players. Believe me, even in nAA, no one is complaining that healers aren't needed.

    The fact that there will be no healers in vAA score runs is what he is trying to say. And that it is not ok.
    Edited by zvavi on August 2, 2019 4:27PM
  • Agenericname
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    SaltySudd wrote: »
    Shantu wrote: »
    Congrats to the OP for being an awesome player and running with an awesome group, but posts like this are so skewed toward elitism it's ridiculous. 99.9% of players will never do ANY HM vet trial content, let alone without a healer. But since this happened to 1 group in the easiest trial in the game, it's considered a systemic problem that affects the entire game?

    I lead raid groups for lower to upper middle tiered players. Believe me, even in nAA, no one is complaining that healers aren't needed.

    You missed the point of this post. I was addressing an issue that @ZOS_BrianWheeler brought up regarding the upcoming nerfs to healing in the next update:

    We're aware that some content has been designed around old functionality of abilities that existed beyond our standards and might need some sort of compromise in regards to how you engage with it and/or how we balance it.

    Due to the nerfs made to healing springs and orbs, it will directly impact vet trials (as Brian said, many of those trials have mechanics which were specifically built around how healing springs functioned). So one of the potential ways of addressing that, according to him, would be lowering the incoming damage that players receive.

    I was addressing the fact that incoming damage should not be lowered to compensate for the nerfs to healing. If the incoming damage is lowered it will only make it easier for groups to complete content without a healer (due to the changes to skills like Ring of Preservation, Vigor, Ritual of Retribution, Power Surge, etc) since it is already possible for groups to clear vet HM without a healer. So if groups can currently complete a vet HM trial, it would be even easier to complete if the incoming damage was lowered.

    I havent been following the healing changes as closely as others, but I'm not sure that AA or similar content was the target of that discussion.

    @Shantu
    I believe that you're correct in that this is an issue with certain demographics of groups and not others, but I still fail to see how this change is going to help healers in any demographic.
  • SaltySudd
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    cheifsoap wrote: »
    AA HM is not a very good metric, try more difficult content and if you're dead set on crags; go for HRC HM.

    Again, this post is concerning why incoming damage should not be lowered to compensate for the nerfs to healing. You pointed out vHRC HM so we'll use that as an example:
    Currently, healing springs is a major factor in surviving the starfall mechanic. Currently, healing springs can be stacked and multiple springs can be spread out to heal the group through the starfall mechanic. However, due to the nerfs coming to healing springs, starfall will be more difficult for groups to survive through. But due to the healing buffs coming to Ring of Preservation, Vigor, Ritual of Retribution, Power Surge, etc, it will be easier to survive through starfall. But if the incoming damage is lowered, not only will it be easier to heal through, but it will be easier to heal through without a healer. Lower incoming damage = lower healing required to survive.

    With the buffs to Ring of Preservation, Vigor, Ritual of Retribution, and Power Surge, and if the incoming damage was lowered, then the starfall mechanic could be survivable even without a healer. Ring of Preservation stacks. Vigor stacks. Ritual of Retribution stacks. If DPS included those into their rotations during damage intense fights, it could be possible to not even need a healer if the incoming damage was lowered. And if stacking those wouldn't be enough, then all the tanks have to do is throw out a healing orb which will add another HOT and also provide multiple huge burst heals since everyone can synergize a single orb.
    Edited by SaltySudd on August 2, 2019 4:53PM
    Stop exploiting players.
    PC NA: CP 810+
    Xbox NA: CP 810+
    Closed beta
    | vMA Flawless | vDSA | vAA HM | vHRC HM | vSO HM | vMoL | vHoF | vAS+2 | vCR | vSS HM |
    | DK tank | Warden tank | NB tank | Templar healer | Warden healer | Magsorc | Magblade | Magplar | Crafter |
  • Vermintide
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    I'd really like it if they just threw out the whole "holy trinity" mechanic, tbh. Taking a tank and a healer should be one way to do it, not the only way.

    You ever play the original Final Fantasy and go with a team of nothing but fighters and red mages? Full black mage squad? Fun times.
  • miteba
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    I think this OP only confirms ZoS plans:
    No dedicated healer needed!

    Next target in ZoS agenda should be "The Tank"

    Good news since soon they will finally fix Dungeon Finder!

    (Sarcasm intended)
  • D0PAMINE
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    Im such a clown tanking vAA. I'm that dork who accidentally dodgerolls off the cliff while tanking the Axes. It was becoming a massive problem.
  • RiskyChalice863
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    Perhaps this is a silly point but it seems to me that your group was able to complete it because a bunch of non-healers had slotted healing abilities. That’s obviously a safer way to go, but it doesn’t maximize DPS. Your team basically decided to sacrifice DPS to allow yourself to be in a better spot if your healer died or screwed up. If you’ve got a group of players that are all basically dedicating 10-20% of their rotation to healing, it’s not quite true that you didn’t have a healer. You just didn’t have a dedicated healer. But probably roughly the same percent of the group’s global cooldowns were used on healing abilities as if you had had the healer alive and the other players weren’t using all the Matriarchs and Vigors. This would always be viable because the game’s stats system allows you to boost your healing and DPS using the same stats. All this really proves is that if the DPS all basically act as part healers, you can get similar results to having dedicated DPS and dedicated healers.
  • zvavi
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    D0PAMINE wrote: »
    Im such a clown tanking vAA. I'm that dork who accidentally dodgerolls off the cliff while tanking the Axes. It was becoming a massive problem.

    SO IT WAS YOU!!! jokes aside, taunt main boss more :3, no worries, you will get used to it
    Edited by zvavi on August 5, 2019 5:39AM
  • Jpk0012
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    Perhaps this is a silly point but it seems to me that your group was able to complete it because a bunch of non-healers had slotted healing abilities. That’s obviously a safer way to go, but it doesn’t maximize DPS. Your team basically decided to sacrifice DPS to allow yourself to be in a better spot if your healer died or screwed up. If you’ve got a group of players that are all basically dedicating 10-20% of their rotation to healing, it’s not quite true that you didn’t have a healer. You just didn’t have a dedicated healer. But probably roughly the same percent of the group’s global cooldowns were used on healing abilities as if you had had the healer alive and the other players weren’t using all the Matriarchs and Vigors. This would always be viable because the game’s stats system allows you to boost your healing and DPS using the same stats. All this really proves is that if the DPS all basically act as part healers, you can get similar results to having dedicated DPS and dedicated healers.

    I am wondering why people are not realizing this. The group clearly had healers, but then he claims there was no healer. Odd.
  • p00tx
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    Yeah, we put together a normal MoL pug run for gear a few months back, and because of a miscommunication, ended up without a healer. We did the entire thing without one and it was completely fine, including the add pulls. This was with a mixed bag of a few experienced players with primarily new and inexperienced players. I know it's just a normal trial, but with that many new, low CP players, it shouldn't have been possible.
    Xbox NA

    "She"...I am female, contrary to what the gamer tag or my nasty attitude might suggest.

  • Grianasteri
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    SaltySudd wrote: »
    Last night I ran vAA HM with my guild for a quick score run so we only took one healer. However, during the final boss fight the healer was knocked off (or fell). We figured that we'd wipe, but we kept going just to build ulti for the second attempt. However, we realized that nobody was dying due to the DPS simply adding vigor and Twilight Matriarchs into their rotation. We reached execute and then decided to just go for it. During execute there was even still a reflection up, but we still managed to clear HM despite not having a healer.

    While it was funny in the moment, it felt wrong.

    A veteran hardmode trial boss should not be completable without a healer. With the changes coming to healing in the next Update I am really becoming concerned about where healing as a role is going to fit into PvE endgame if the DPS will be able to survive without one. This is exactly why the content should not be adjusted to compensate for the upcoming nerfs to healing. If the incoming damage is reduced to compensate it will make things even easier for groups to complete content without dedicated healers.

    The reason it's easier to run most vet HM dungeons without a healer is because with 3 DPS you can skip mechanics, kill things before they have a chance to kill or damage you, and shorten fights due to the high amount of damage. If it gets to the point where even vet HM trials can be completed without healers, then of course groups are going to start running only DPS and tanks for the same logic that they do in dungeons. Why bring along two healers when you can just bring two extra DPS to burn through the content quicker?

    This is an MMORPG. The genre has been built around the "holy trinity" of DPS, healers, and tanks. If one of those roles becomes nonessential or even discouraged, then you have removed one of the foundational elements to having an MMO. I sincerely hope that is not the direction that ESO is heading.

    What this guy said ^

    Make heals great a again. The decline in the role really hits me in the feely bits :(
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