Stop making a New Tutorial for Every Chapter

VaranisArano

We absolutely need the choice.

If I had my way, we'd get a splash screen with something like this:

Year of the Dragon - Face the wrath of dragons in Khajiit lands in ESO's latest Chapter Elsweyr! Year of the Dragon includes: Wrathstone, Elsweyr, Scalebreaker, and Dragonhold.
Begin in Elsweyr. / Skip Tutorial

Daedric Wars - Foil the dark plots of Daedric Princes while aiding the people of Vvardenfell, Clockwork City, and Summerset! Includes: Morrowind, Clockwork City, Summerset
Begin in Morrowind. / Skip Tutorial
Begin in Summerset. / Skip Tutorial

Planemeld - Captured by the Worm Cult and your soul sacrificed to Molag Bal, embark on ESO's Main Quest to save Tamriel and regain your soul! Includes: Elder Scrolls Online (Base Game)
Begin in the Wailing Prison. / Skip Tutorial

Kalik_Gold

Zone guide should try to lead you down a chronological path as best as possible.

starkerealm

Berserkerkitten wrote: »

Glad I'm not the only one bothered by this. I remember taking a brand new character to Summerset and Raz greeted me like an old friend. Bit awkward.

His dialog is, in fact, different, if you're using a character who's completed any of his previous quests, or if you just randomly walk up and meet him for the first time.

Carbonised

This suggestion is a sensible one, and of course the game makes more sense when you play it in released order, instead of as a hodge podge of doing DLC zones and base game quests in between one another.

Unfortunately, ZOS made it pretty clear in their QuakeCon presentation that their ultimate goal with chapters is to lure in as many new players as possible, and get them hooked on the chapter. They don't want new players to do base game zones and main game quest first, which is why they went out of their way to make a complete new tutorial area for every released chapter. They want new players in the game, make them hoked on the "new content" and hopefully milk them of as much money as possible through the store (buying skill lines, skyshards, xp boosts and what not), then wave goodbye to them as they leave out the door they came in, after a short time.

If you're an old player who stuck around, or a somewhat new player who's a completionist and wants to do all the zones, that's fine and good, but then you're not ZOS' main demographic with these chapter releases. Retention is not something they care about, only player turnover. Their "charts" showed them that they had a lot of players coming in for a short while, then leave again shortly after. So instead of designing a game that people wanted to play in the long run and have player retention, they decided to design their entire game around these short bursts of new player infusion.

So, while it would of course make sense for anyone bothered by continuity, story and the classic RPG elements to play the game in released order, ZOS actively promotes a playstyle that caters to the casuals who want to dabble in the newest content before moving on to the next game of the month. As always, money is ruling everything when it comes to ZOS (and their asset Bethesda Softworks, but that's another topic).

starkerealm

@Carbonised, it's a pretty important statement to a new player about how ESO is different from other MMOs.

The chapters being available to new players without having to go through all the previous content is not the norm in the genre. So, by putting players in the newest content, ZOS is telling them, "yeah, you can actually run this new content you just paid for, without having to grind for ages, through all the old stuff." So, in that sense, getting that across quickly is pretty important.

As for the story making sense? Yeah, more or less, the story makes sense out of context. I mean, there is stuff like Raz pretending to be chummy with people who he's never met before, but he's always been like that, even back at launch on Khenarthi's Roost. It's part of how he presents himself.

There are some neat tweaks in the stories to account for past history with characters. One of the best is when you encounter a character you could potentially know from a previous chapter, if your character doesn't, then no harm, but if you do, their NPC name even changes to match who you know they are.

It'd be cool if the stories were more reactive to being run backwards, but what can you do?

The only stuff that is really sequential are the original 21 zones. Stuff since then has tended to be pretty modular.

blnchk

I've never understood the need for new tutorials. They could have easily left the Coldharbour tutorial alone and given people a choice regarding which map to end up on afterwards. Get sacrificed, escape with the Prophet, end up in Elsweyr. Done. Want to tackle the main quest and maybe your alliance quest line sometime after? The Prophet has already told you where he is after you woke up, so just make your way to the Harborage. Done and done.

Iccotak

@starkerealm
after the tutorial - a notification could appear on the player screen letting them know that they can access the latest chapter in the 'Collections' menu.
it would tell the player to open collections and show them where it all is and make sure to tell them that it is an option to activate the add on content. This would be after the player had experienced escaping Coldharbour

Iccotak

@Shawn_PT

This is an MMO, fine. We get it. But this is also an Elder Scrolls game where the story is one of, if not THE most important part. And the current system completely destroys the narrative.

Exactly

Iccotak

VaranisArano wrote: »

We absolutely need the choice.

If I had my way, we'd get a splash screen with something like this:

Year of the Dragon - Face the wrath of dragons in Khajiit lands in ESO's latest Chapter Elsweyr! Year of the Dragon includes: Wrathstone, Elsweyr, Scalebreaker, and Dragonhold.
Begin in Elsweyr. / Skip Tutorial

Daedric Wars - Foil the dark plots of Daedric Princes while aiding the people of Vvardenfell, Clockwork City, and Summerset! Includes: Morrowind, Clockwork City, Summerset
Begin in Morrowind. / Skip Tutorial
Begin in Summerset. / Skip Tutorial

Planemeld - Captured by the Worm Cult and your soul sacrificed to Molag Bal, embark on ESO's Main Quest to save Tamriel and regain your soul! Includes: Elder Scrolls Online (Base Game)
Begin in the Wailing Prison. / Skip Tutorial

I would argue that you don't need that seeing as how once players are out of the tutorial they can just travel to the DLC locations.
Keep it simple with one tutorial that players have the option to skip and get right to the game.

Aliyavana

agreed, zos should stop making the timeline messed up as there is a clear chronology

starkerealm

Iccotak wrote: »

@starkerealm
after the tutorial - a notification could appear on the player screen letting them know that they can access the latest chapter in the 'Collections' menu.
it would tell the player to open collections and show them where it all is and make sure to tell them that it is an option to activate the add on content. This would be after the player had experienced escaping Coldharbour

There's a huge difference between a popup that new players will ignore, and literally being deposited in a new zone. And, pop ups like that aren't really that uncommon. The part where a player can actually go there from level 3 is what's unusual. So, depositing them in the new zone is far more important.

First impressions are incredibly critical. If someone was convinced to buy Elseweyr because of dragons, the last thing you want to do is then drop them in some of the oldest content in the game as their first exposure to ESO. That's how most MMOs work, and most players will look at what you just put on their plate as their only option. Knowing you have choices, (even if you tell them you do), relies on actually showing them.

Similarly, the Summerset and Elsweyr tutorials are significantly shorter than the Wailing Prison was. Getting players into the world as fast as possible is another major choice, and one of the reasons the new tutorials are improvements over the original 2014 iteration.

TheInfernalRage

THE ONLY TUTORIAL THAT I RESPECT WAS THE ORIGINAL ONE.

I don't know why they need to change the starting point whenever a new chapter is released.

Jagdkommando

I cant believe, ZOS sucks even in storytelling... omfg

wishlist14

Berserkerkitten wrote: »

Glad I'm not the only one bothered by this. I remember taking a brand new character to Summerset and Raz greeted me like an old friend. Bit awkward.

😂😂😂Raz is a very friendly khajiit yes? Also, Raz is so famous he has to assume everyone knows him. Imagine if he had met you and worked with you and he had forgotten and greeeted you as a stranger, that would surely be awkward no?

I agree with OP herd but atm the devs are busy on fixing the lag and glitches and mainly overall game performance that players have been requesting for years now. We need to give them time to improve overall game performance before they can move on to other things. But great idea yes...

Thorvik_Tyrson

VaranisArano wrote: »

We absolutely need the choice.

If I had my way, we'd get a splash screen with something like this:

Year of the Dragon - Face the wrath of dragons in Khajiit lands in ESO's latest Chapter Elsweyr! Year of the Dragon includes: Wrathstone, Elsweyr, Scalebreaker, and Dragonhold.
Begin in Elsweyr. / Skip Tutorial

Daedric Wars - Foil the dark plots of Daedric Princes while aiding the people of Vvardenfell, Clockwork City, and Summerset! Includes: Morrowind, Clockwork City, Summerset
Begin in Morrowind. / Skip Tutorial
Begin in Summerset. / Skip Tutorial

Planemeld - Captured by the Worm Cult and your soul sacrificed to Molag Bal, embark on ESO's Main Quest to save Tamriel and regain your soul! Includes: Elder Scrolls Online (Base Game)
Begin in the Wailing Prison. / Skip Tutorial

I was wishing for something like this when I was making my characters. I had no clue even how to get to the other area's to see what that starting experience was. I know that i'm starting the game 5 years after it's release, but I would still like to be able to go back and go thru that original experience.

I would really like to see the choice as Varanis described it to allow you to choose the tutorial/starting area that your character uses.

VaranisArano

Kalik_Gold wrote: »

Zone guide should try to lead you down a chronological path as best as possible.

Its does a pretty good job within each zone.

What it won't do is tell you that the AD storyline makes no sense if you don't dont do Khanarthi's Roost > Auridon >Grahtwood > Greenshade >Malabal Tor > Reapers March. You need Cadwell's Silver or Gold for that.

It also won't tell you that the Daedric Wars arc is intended for the order of Morrowind > Clockwork City>Summerset.

So its great within the zones...but not so good at storyarcs.

Iccotak wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

We absolutely need the choice.

If I had my way, we'd get a splash screen with something like this:

Year of the Dragon - Face the wrath of dragons in Khajiit lands in ESO's latest Chapter Elsweyr! Year of the Dragon includes: Wrathstone, Elsweyr, Scalebreaker, and Dragonhold.
Begin in Elsweyr. / Skip Tutorial

Daedric Wars - Foil the dark plots of Daedric Princes while aiding the people of Vvardenfell, Clockwork City, and Summerset! Includes: Morrowind, Clockwork City, Summerset
Begin in Morrowind. / Skip Tutorial
Begin in Summerset. / Skip Tutorial

Planemeld - Captured by the Worm Cult and your soul sacrificed to Molag Bal, embark on ESO's Main Quest to save Tamriel and regain your soul! Includes: Elder Scrolls Online (Base Game)
Begin in the Wailing Prison. / Skip Tutorial

I would argue that you don't need that seeing as how once players are out of the tutorial they can just travel to the DLC locations.
Keep it simple with one tutorial that players have the option to skip and get right to the game.

I do not think ZOS will give up the opportunity for new players to jump right into the brand new Chapter they just bought.

Giving players the option and a quick description, on the other hand, shows new players the breadth of the game and gives them choice to do the new content or do everything from the beginning.

Iccotak

@starkerealm
Rather than a pop-up I though more of a tutorial that makes the player open the menu and obviously point things out to them.
Like
-"Press X button to open collections" and it won't disappear until you do that
-Golden Lettering "HERE Are the Chapters"
-Highlight the Activate button, etc. Use colors like Red and Green to draw their Eye

Just like a tutorial makes sure players use the controls.

On the "First Impressions Argument"
In the short term it can be nice to be dropped off in the latest content.
In the long term we are seeing the consequences of players lacking in direction and a confusing first impression as they do the DLC then are confused about how the rest of the storyline works.

I have seen way too many New Players express frustration that they have no idea where to go or what to do - and had to ask other players or google how they should go forward. That is bad game design.
Players should start in the base game with the option to go anywhere while having a form of clear direction. Like an Elder Scrolls game

Getting players into the world as fast as possible is another major choice, and one of the reasons the new tutorials are improvements over the original 2014 iteration.

The Introduction should have great first impression while explaining the games story well enough that the player isn't confused, this cannot be rushed.
If players just wanted to be rushed out into the world then they can skip the intro.
That's why the original introduction with cutscene, story, and gameplay was the best one overall.
Every intro that has come after are incredibly weak.

The Problem is that ZOS is advertising the Chapter alone and not the whole game. The Expansion pack cannot be the only appealing thing - you have to sell the product as a whole.

@VaranisArano

What it won't do is tell you that the AD storyline makes no sense if you don't dont do Khanarthi's Roost > Auridon >Grahtwood > Greenshade >Malabal Tor > Reapers March

Yes that is how it should work from the get-go. I agree.

pod88kk

The original tutorial is where the story began for the majority of players & for me it's the most fitting place to start.

If players want to go to a new zone for the first time they should have to do the original tutorial first then they can play how they want after that

jainiadral

TBH, the current Elsweyr tutorial is the best of the lot when it comes to teaching basic combat mechanics. The monastery sparring zone provides a slow, easygoing atmosphere to take in combat basics before gradually ramping up the stakes. I wish somehing like this had been my intro to the game when I'd first tried to start two years ago.

The Wailing Prison is a great story starter, but terrible for teaching you combat basics. The pace is fast, you're dumped off into a hyper-crowded, confusing zone. I found the experience overwhelming back then and never really had basic stuff click. I quit not much later in a large part because I didn't "get it."

Summerset's tutorial is just as overwhelming and a lot more annoying with all the visual clutter. A nice retro-edit to the Wailing Prison allowing for a more gradual introduction of the basics before dumping you into the masses might be the best solution.

starkerealm

Iccotak wrote: »

@starkerealm
Rather than a pop-up I though more of a tutorial that makes the player open the menu and obviously point things out to them.
Like
-"Press X button to open collections" and it won't disappear until you do that
-Golden Lettering "HERE Are the Chapters"
-Highlight the Activate button, etc. Use colors like Red and Green to draw their Eye

Just like a tutorial makes sure players use the controls.

So, that would be obnoxious. It would also, if used as intended, create the exact situation we have now, except new players would be pushed through the older, inferior, tutorial, only to then be directed at gunpoint to new content, disrupting the story in the exact way you're bemoaning.

It also offers up a really amusing point of failure. If you try to zone a player into a map they don't have access to, the game will choke, dump them into a zone they do have access to. You can see this if you leave a character parked in a DLC zone, and then let ESO+ lapse.

But, a UI interrupt? There's no failsafe like that. So, you could potentially lock a new player in a non-responsive, where they can't do anything, except pay money to progress. Given you're talking about someone who's only experienced the tutorial and may be on the fence about the game, that's "a bad thing."

Iccotak wrote: »

On the "First Impressions Argument"
In the short term it can be nice to be dropped off in the latest content.
In the long term we are seeing the consequences of players lacking in direction and a confusing first impression as they do the DLC then are confused about how the rest of the storyline works.

I have seen way too many New Players express frustration that they have no idea where to go or what to do - and had to ask other players or google how they should go forward. That is bad game design.
Players should start in the base game with the option to go anywhere while having a form of clear direction. Like an Elder Scrolls game

A problem that's been mostly dealt with through the introduction of the zone finder system. Now, not completely, and if you wanted a UI interrupt to say, "this is the zone finder, you can use it to find stuff to do," that's valid up to a point, but again, a high level, full UI interrupt like that is something that needs to be used very sparingly. You're (figuratively) grabbing someone by the head and saying, "hey, look at this," and unsurprisingly, most players aren't terribly receptive to that.

Ironically, what you're asking for here would be a removal of exactly what you're asking for. Instead of having the freedom to go anywhere, you're asking for players to be funneled back onto a linear themepark ride. Which was the entire design approach that One Tamriel sought to escape.

Iccotak wrote: »

Getting players into the world as fast as possible is another major choice, and one of the reasons the new tutorials are improvements over the original 2014 iteration.

The Introduction should have great first impression while explaining the games story well enough that the player isn't confused, this cannot be rushed.
If players just wanted to be rushed out into the world then they can skip the intro.

In point of fact, they cannot. The tutorial cannot be skipped the first time. It can be skipped when you're rolling up alts, but not on a fresh account. You may be able to see this right now, if you've never rolled up a character on EU or NA.

Iccotak wrote: »

That's why the original introduction with cutscene, story, and gameplay was the best one overall.
Every intro that has come after are incredibly weak.

Alternately, the original tutorial was a mess of padding and content the player didn't need. It diluted important lessons like attack types, with loads of narrative that, while engaging, helped lead to the swarms of players scampering around without a fundamental grasp of how to play, and left them with a feeling that the game was on rails.

The, actual, function of the tutorial is getting players up to speed on the controls so they can play the game. FULL STOP.

Iccotak wrote: »

The Problem is that ZOS is advertising the Chapter alone and not the whole game. The Expansion pack cannot be the only appealing thing - you have to sell the product as a whole.

Which, it's not. However, given that every other MMO on the market gates content based on your level, it is very important to show the player that the new content is available to them out of the box, in the least invasive way possible.

With that in mind, traveling to any base game zone will give you the benefactor quest, which is marked as the main quest, so they will come across this story sooner than later. At that point, following quests will put them on the path to experience the original game content.

@VaranisArano, the original alliance storylines should, probably, be linked together in the zone guide across all five zones (each), so that you're guided through them as intended. So, if you're in Reaper's March, and you say, "I want to start the main quest here," it directs you to Auridon (or Khenarthi's Roost.) However, I don't know if, as written, the Zone Guide permits that kind of behavior.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

TheInfernalRage wrote: »

THE ONLY TUTORIAL THAT I RESPECT WAS THE ORIGINAL ONE.

I don't know why they need to change the starting point whenever a new chapter is released.

Which doesn't exist any more........ The "Wailing Prison" quest line, is a cut down version of the original Tutorial we initially played back in 2014. Dialogues are chopped completely, including steps of the quest, and even the layout is different.

Iccotak

@starkerealm

So, that would be obnoxious. It would also, if used as intended, create the exact situation we have now, except new players would be pushed through the older, inferior, tutorial, only to then be directed at gunpoint to new content, disrupting the story in the exact way you're bemoaning.

The Very Original intro isn't inferior - the current iteration of that intro is a butchered and cut down version that sucks, as do all the new tutorials.
I even proposed a revision of the OG intro in the OP that was closer but improved of what we had.
There are other ways player could be notified or told about the expansions without extremely disrupting story flow.

If you try to zone a player into a map they don't have access to, the game will choke, dump them into a zone they do have access to. You can see this if you leave a character parked in a DLC zone, and then let ESO+ lapse.

Yeah that has never happened to me, always put me in the capital of my alliance if ESO+ ran out, but noted.
Also no one said anything about forcing players into something they don't have access to. What Most people here have been saying is that New Players should start in the base game first for clear story and direction.
We understand it from a business perspective but we don't think it is player friendly, more of an instant gratification short term thing that hurts in the long run. Dropping them in the latest Chapter is a Bad Idea.

With that in mind, traveling to any base game zone will give you the benefactor quest, which is marked as the main quest, so they will come across this story sooner than later. At that point, following quests will put them on the path to experience the original game content.

This is a band aid solution at best. I have seen more people complain about it than like it. I don't speak for everyone else but I HATE IT.
NOW Players HAVE to do go do Wailing prison to start the main quest and, as consequence, the Devs tried to shorten it down as much as possible so then players can just get it over with. AND we lose that great story cutscene introduction to what is the Main Story of the game
This disrupts the story flow FAR more than the idea I put out there.
Wailing Prison should just be the Main Tutorial that we have the option to Skip.

Alternately, the original tutorial was a mess of padding and content the player didn't need. It diluted important lessons like attack types, with loads of narrative that, while engaging, helped lead to the swarms of players scampering around without a fundamental grasp of how to play, and left them with a feeling that the game was on rails.

Don't agree with you but even if that was the case - those are things that could be fixed with one revision as opposed to making New Tutorial in Every Chapter Every Single Year.

The, actual, function of the tutorial is getting players up to speed on the controls so they can play the game. FULL STOP.

As well as introduce the player to the Main Story. That has been the second major function of the intro in this game since launch. As well as every Elder Scrolls Game

In point of fact, they cannot. The tutorial cannot be skipped the first time. It can be skipped when you're rolling up alts, but not on a fresh account. You may be able to see this right now, if you've never rolled up a character on EU or NA.

Yes New Players shouldn't skip a tutorial & Nor should they be rushed out too soon with barely a handle of what they are doing - which is your complaint of the current OG intro and my complaint of New intros.

Ironically, what you're asking for here would be a removal of exactly what you're asking for. Instead of having the freedom to go anywhere, you're asking for players to be funneled back onto a linear themepark ride. Which was the entire design approach that One Tamriel sought to escape.

The problem isn't freedom - no one here has said that. The problem is
1. We all too often run into players that lack direction because the game does not do a good job of guiding them through a linear storyline, which is what it is. ESO is open world but it has always had a linear storyline.
2. The Current iteration of starting in the latest Chapters and going to the Base game breaks story pace and immersion for both Vets and New players

We aren't asking for more freedom - we are asking for better guidance for new players and a less convoluted way to start the base game.
If The Devs could give us the choice to start in Coldharbour in character creation that'd be great BUT it would make more sense to just make the Wailing Prison the only Tutorial.

barney2525

Tyrobag wrote: »

I don't mind having alternate tutorials, but we need to be able to choose the one we want, not be automatically forced into the latest one.

Completely agree. When the character is created and ready to enter for the first time the player should be allowed to choose which tutorial - if any - they want to use. I personally enjoy the most recent Elsweyr tutorial. It handles everything a new character needs to do, gives a lot of options to try out combat on NPCs, and gives the character all the options of gear choices to work with - except resto staff for some reason - very early on so the character can start their skill lines early without having to hope for an rng drop.

For players who are dead set on straight story that makes sense, you can go from the tutorial to a wayshrine to your home city and get the starting quest from the hooded figure.

For players who don't really care how much 'sense' the storyline has, they can opt to go do other things.

IMHO, its a better idea to let each person handle their game play in the style They want, rather than setting one particular funnel that everyone must slide down.

IMHO

TiaFrye

One thing is Raz being friendly regardless of your character's completed quests, but completely spoiling Darien's arc for the people who have not developed the emotional attachment to the character yet without finishing the base game... Lame.

Dusk_Coven

starkerealm wrote: »

The chapters being available to new players without having to go through all the previous content is not the norm in the genre. So, by putting players in the newest content, ZOS is telling them, "yeah, you can actually run this new content you just paid for, without having to grind for ages, through all the old stuff." So, in that sense, getting that across quickly is pretty important.

When the story gets too long, you hit a marketing problem.
You're showing off the shiny new stuff so it's hard to then turn around and tell new players, "no you can't touch this yet, you have to do blah blah blah first for months".
Some people don't have several hours a day to play. They just have a little bit a day or a week.

SWTOR's story is pretty long and convoluted as it is, and they have the same problem. To get around it, they have tokens that let you skip the early story -- BUT with a WARNING that you are about to skip a huge chunk of story and miss a lot of choices you could make. So in a way, they maintain correct story progress.
Which I think is a much better way than letting players stumble on quests and do a story nonsensically backwards -- just one of the "features" of One Tamriel. <.<

starkerealm

Iccotak wrote: »

@starkerealm

So, that would be obnoxious. It would also, if used as intended, create the exact situation we have now, except new players would be pushed through the older, inferior, tutorial, only to then be directed at gunpoint to new content, disrupting the story in the exact way you're bemoaning.

The Very Original intro isn't inferior - the current iteration of that intro is a butchered and cut down version that sucks, as do all the new tutorials.
I even proposed a revision of the OG intro in the OP that was closer but improved of what we had.
There are other ways player could be notified or told about the expansions without extremely disrupting story flow.

That's the funny thing about this, it doesn't. It disrupts some side stories, and creates some minor continuity errors that wouldn't raise a blip in a nitpicker's guide.

Most of the major stuff that can be disrupted either, already could, in exactly the same way, or isn't really integral to the game.

The worst thing that happens with Elsweyr is that it doesn't affect dialog in Castle of the Worm and the Wailing Prison. As these things go, that's pretty minor. The only way your character can know about the Amulet of Kings story from the main quest is if they've actually done it. There's even some weird mid-states for characters who've met Abnur Tharn, but haven't finished the main story, so you can interact with him as someone who knows him, but without knowledge of the events during God of Schemes. At that point, crying about continuity is only reading your own knowledge of the situation into the events, and then complaining because you know things your character doesn't.

Iccotak wrote: »

If you try to zone a player into a map they don't have access to, the game will choke, dump them into a zone they do have access to. You can see this if you leave a character parked in a DLC zone, and then let ESO+ lapse.

Yeah that has never happened to me, always put me in the capital of my alliance if ESO+ ran out, but noted.

That's what I'm talking about. The game has systems designed to allow you to log out in a zone, lose access to it, and not get screwed.

Iccotak wrote: »

Also no one said anything about forcing players into something they don't have access to.

So... you're saying you didn't write this:

Iccotak wrote: »

Rather than a pop-up I though more of a tutorial that makes the player open the menu and obviously point things out to them.
Like
-"Press X button to open collections" and it won't disappear until you do that
-Golden Lettering "HERE Are the Chapters"
-Highlight the Activate button, etc. Use colors like Red and Green to draw their Eye

Just like a tutorial makes sure players use the controls.

Then who did?

Iccotak wrote: »

What Most people here have been saying is that New Players should start in the base game first for clear story and direction. We understand it from a business perspective but we don't think it is player friendly, more of an instant gratification short term thing that hurts in the long run. Dropping them in the latest Chapter is a Bad Idea.

Because baiting and switching people is better idea? "Hey, kid, check out this cool new zone? Just kidding, you've got to grind through 500 hours of content before you'll never see it anyway, because you ran out of patience." That is most of the MMO market.

See the FF14 expansion that just dropped? Yeah, that means the previous expansion is now irrelevant, and you still won't see the new content until you're at endgame.

You see Shadowkeep? Yeah, to play that, you're going to need to complete the core game, and Forsaken. That's about 60 - 70 hours of content, assuming you don't have to grind (which you probably will, because Forsaken assumes you played through Warmind and Curse of Osirus.)

Look at Battle for Azeroth. It doesn't start until you hit Level 100, so you either pay through the nose to be able to approach the content, or you just kinda grind.

You see Elseweyr, and thought it looked cool? Yeah, you can play that out of the box.

As a genre, being able to play a new expansion, as a casual player, day 1, is not normal.

At that point, your complaint should probably be, "well they should remove One Tamriel, and roll that back, because it confuses new players. Nevermind that the design decision to let a player control their experience is the thing that sets ESO apart from every other MMO on the market.

Iccotak wrote: »

With that in mind, traveling to any base game zone will give you the benefactor quest, which is marked as the main quest, so they will come across this story sooner than later. At that point, following quests will put them on the path to experience the original game content.

This is a band aid solution at best. I have seen more people complain about it than like it. I don't speak for everyone else but I HATE IT.

Tough. I once had someone argue with me that Champion points were disabled everywhere except in dungeons and trials. There's some stupid people out there.

Now, I remember when ESO required you to play through each zone in order. You couldn't just jump in and help a friend or guildie. If they were in a different alliance, you couldn't play with them at all. If you were significantly different levels, you couldn't team up, because you'd either get one tapped by the NPCs, or you would oneshot them. Hell, I once ran a quest in Stonefalls wearing Legerdermain clothes and punching enemies to death.

Funny stories aside, it was not a better time.

Iccotak wrote: »

NOW Players HAVE to do go do Wailing prison to start the main quest and, as consequence, the Devs tried to shorten it down as much as possible so then players can just get it over with.

No. The Wailing Prison was revised at least three times before Morrowind. The version we experience today was the version that was created sometime around One Tamriel (I think.) Hell, there were implementations of it that replaced some of Michael Gambon's dialog with another voice actor. It was really jarring.

And, guess what? You always had to do The Wailing Prison to start the main quest. That you want the ability to skip it, only underlines that it wasn't that great to begin with.

Iccotak wrote: »

AND we lose that great story cutscene introduction to what is the Main Story of the game

You mean the attract mode video? The one that, at launch, could not be viewed a second time on your account? Yeah, it was cool, if you want to show it to someone, you need to check YouTube, because it's been gone for years. Was it worth keeping the game in stasis for years? No. It's okay, but the attract videos have continued outdoing themselves.

Iccotak wrote: »

This disrupts the story flow FAR more than the idea I put out there.

Again, you're reading in context that doesn't exist if you're experiencing the story out of sequence.

It's disruptive if you know who these people will be. Not, who they are at this point.

Iccotak wrote: »

Wailing Prison should just be the Main Tutorial that we have the option to Skip.

It really shouldn't. Like I said, it was bloated.

And I've gotta say, again, if you want to skip it, maybe it wasn't as good as you remember.

If you wanted to say the Summerset Tutorial was better than the Elseweyr one... yeah. Yeah, it was. The Elsweyr one drags a bit. That said, Elseweyr has better spectacle.

Iccotak wrote: »

Alternately, the original tutorial was a mess of padding and content the player didn't need. It diluted important lessons like attack types, with loads of narrative that, while engaging, helped lead to the swarms of players scampering around without a fundamental grasp of how to play, and left them with a feeling that the game was on rails.

Don't agree with you but even if that was the case - those are things that could be fixed with one revision as opposed to making New Tutorial in Every Chapter Every Single Year.

I'm not sure if you've played them, but there has been a marked improvement. They've stripped down to the concepts that players need to understand. With a lot of optional stuff that they can figure out on their own time getting shuffled off. Like I said, the Elseweyr one drags a bit, but part of that is in order to give you a taste of a Dragon fight, which is a pretty important player teaser. Given dragons are one of the major features with the chapter. The only disappointment I've got with the new tutorial is, it doesn't offer any class-specific content for necromancers. Which, was also true with Morrowind and Wardens, but Necromancers have a few quirks that players do need to understand, and the tutorial doesn't address that.

Iccotak wrote: »

The, actual, function of the tutorial is getting players up to speed on the controls so they can play the game. FULL STOP.

As well as introduce the player to the Main Story.

No.

A lot of devs do look tutorials as an opportunity to cram the main story down the player's throat. It's an abuse of the fact that they don't have a choice.

Iccotak wrote: »

That has been the second major function of the intro in this game since launch. As well as every Elder Scrolls Game

The Arena tutorial consists of escaping a prison. There's no narrative development, and odds are, you'll die before you can get out on at least 50% of your characters.

The Daggerfall tutorial consists of escaping a cave. There's no narrative development, and there's a decent chance you'll be mauled to death by bears before you see sunlight.

The Morrowind tutorial consists of filling out paperwork to be released into a strange world. The only narrative development is being told to hoof it to Balmora and meet up with some creepy guy there who might have a job for you. There's a decent chance you'll be murdered by cliffracers on the road, if you don't use Vvardenfell's public transit system.

It wasn't until Oblivion, that the tutorial was used to kick start the story.

So, 40% is a pretty wacky definition of "most." And if we extend this to include Elder Scrolls games outside of the main games, that ratio doesn't get much better.

Hell, even the tutorial for ESO's Morrowind did nothing to establish the story. It told its own mini-story, which was okay on its own.

Summerset's is connected to the main story of Summerset... somehow? Who are you again?

And of course, Elseweyr's does set up the story with the Dragons, in case you're new to all this.

Iccotak wrote: »

In point of fact, they cannot. The tutorial cannot be skipped the first time. It can be skipped when you're rolling up alts, but not on a fresh account. You may be able to see this right now, if you've never rolled up a character on EU or NA.

Yes New Players shouldn't skip a tutorial & Nor should they be rushed out too soon with barely a handle of what they are doing - which is your complaint of the current OG intro and my complaint of New intros.

Again, the new tutorials put more emphasis on the combat mechanics that players need. Now, do they still fail to learn that? Well, yeah. But, it's not like the original tutorial where you were introduced to mechanics, and then presented with a long dungeon crawl that did not require them. Ironically, the original tutorial put more emphasis on picking locks and sneak attacks than it did on interrupting enemies.

Iccotak wrote: »

Ironically, what you're asking for here would be a removal of exactly what you're asking for. Instead of having the freedom to go anywhere, you're asking for players to be funneled back onto a linear themepark ride. Which was the entire design approach that One Tamriel sought to escape.

The problem isn't freedom - no one here has said that. The problem is
1. We all too often run into players that lack direction because the game does not do a good job of guiding them through a linear storyline, which is what it is. ESO is open world but it has always had a linear storyline.
2. The Current iteration of starting in the latest Chapters and going to the Base game breaks story pace and immersion for both Vets and New players

We aren't asking for more freedom - we are asking for better guidance for new players and a less convoluted way to start the base game.

That's true, you're not asking for more freedom, you're asking for less. But, you're not even asking for less freedom for yourself. You're asking for newer players to be treated worse than they are currently. Yeah, that sounds brilliant.

Iccotak wrote: »

If The Devs could give us the choice to start in Coldharbour in character creation that'd be great BUT it would make more sense to just make the Wailing Prison the only Tutorial.

Except, again, it is easier to simply deposit a player in the zone they went out to the store and paid for, rather than telling them, "oh, by the way, you can get access to this zone, it's not endgame."

Really, when with people who are new to the game, one of the hardest things to get through their heads, is that ESO does not follow a normal MMO "endgame" structure, and that they really can go anywhere they want.

Deep_01

Do coldharbour tutorial. Float through the rift from Oblivion to Mundus. You were fished of the coast or Bleakrock or Khenarthi's Roost or Stros m'kai or Seeyda Neen or Shimmirene or Rimmen?

Hilkos

I agree it would be nice to have the choice, but i do not experience the illogical order you can play the game in as immersion breaking. Life is often illogical and after experiences like Coldharbour it is very common to not remember certain people or events. Furthermore the idiocy Molag Bal spreads will be quite timedisturbing.
For me, getting the story handed to you on a platter in perfect storytelling order is more immersionbreaking then the confusion. The world of Elder Scrolls is by nature a confusing one and life generally does not follow storytelling rules.

Fang_of_Lorkhaj

Not everyone cares about the story. Your opinion is appreciated, however you are not the voice for others. Needless post /moveon

starkerealm

Deep_01 wrote: »

Do coldharbour tutorial. Float through the rift from Oblivion to Mundus. You were fished of the coast or Bleakrock or Khenarthi's Roost or Stros m'kai or Seeyda Neen or Shimmirene or Rimmen?

...off the coast of Rimmen?