Silver Shards - Too Strong?
Maintenance for the week of March 24:
• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – March 24, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EDT (14:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – March 26, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• Playstation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – March 26, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – March 24, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 10:00AM EDT (14:00 UTC)
• Xbox: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – March 26, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
• Playstation®: NA and EU megaservers for patch maintenance – March 26, 6:00AM EDT (10:00 UTC) - 12:00PM EDT (16:00 UTC)
kaizen914
✭✭✭
So I've been experimenting with 2h stamcro builds.
The bar setup is pretty typical:
Spammable - execute - carve - s trap - siphon
PI - archer - barbed trap - hail - siphon
Colossus on both bars for ease of use. DB is probably best front bar but I'm lazy.
Anyway...Silver Shards has been coming out ahead reliably as a spammable. Ahead of skull and Wrecking blow.
This is on single target, so I have to ask if this is intended. Do people think this is ok?
I like the idea of having more cleave but it seems so unbalanced that it will just get nerfed into the ground in a later patch.
The bar setup is pretty typical:
Spammable - execute - carve - s trap - siphon
PI - archer - barbed trap - hail - siphon
Colossus on both bars for ease of use. DB is probably best front bar but I'm lazy.
Anyway...Silver Shards has been coming out ahead reliably as a spammable. Ahead of skull and Wrecking blow.
This is on single target, so I have to ask if this is intended. Do people think this is ok?
I like the idea of having more cleave but it seems so unbalanced that it will just get nerfed into the ground in a later patch.
2
-
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So that isn’t even with evil hunter? I wonder why it’s stronger, better fighter’s guild passives?Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Finally a proper spammable for stamdk stamsorc and stamblade. Thank you ZOS. Ignore the hate. The playerbase will love it. Nerf the fear a bit tho.Edited by Wuuffyy on July 28, 2019 2:57AMWuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions11 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It was standardized to be on par with other spammables. Nothing will get nerfed to the ground. It deals around same damage as necro skull or crushing weapon and less than Cutting dive for example and I doubt it outperforms WB.
Only reason this skill might be best (non VMA DW) spammable of next patch is the passive weapon damage it gives to all the skills you will be using instead of spammables because there is no time for spammable
4 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭It was standardized to be on par with other spammables. Nothing will get nerfed to the ground. It deals around same damage as necro skull or crushing weapon and less than Cutting dive for example and I doubt it outperforms WB.
Only reason this skill might be best (non VMA DW) spammable of next patch is the passive weapon damage it gives to all the skills you will be using instead of spammables because there is no time for spammable
Haha lol.Wuuffyy,
WW/berserker playstyle advocate (I play ALL classes proficiently in PvP outside of WW as well)
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-DM for questions0 -
Baphomet✭✭✭✭✭
✭When you can get a tooltip of 10k+ and it does 8k AoE damage on top of the initial hit, it is way, way, way too strong.
Anyone defending this should stay far away from balance discussions.
Unless it’s @ZoS and they realize their massive screw up.- The Psijic Order
- TKO
- Dominant Dominion
- The Noore3 -
Prutton✭✭✭It is not overpowered. A bit overtuned in the AoE, but not overpowered at all. Most spammables add some effect on top of dealing damage. The ones without an added effect have superior damage. The added effect of Silver Shards is the AoE damage in a very short range.4
-
kaizen914✭✭✭When you can get a tooltip of 10k+ and it does 8k AoE damage on top of the initial hit, it is way, way, way too strong.
Anyone defending this should stay far away from balance discussions.
Unless it’s @ZoS and they realize their massive screw up.
This right here - everyone saying it's balance for a spammable - YOU ARE RIGHT. It's balanced for a single target spammable.
The AoE portion is really whats getting me. Why is it doing so much aoe damage when other skills it is balanced to be equal to are not?1 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭It deals 20% more dmg to vamps and ww right? yikes, pvp
Plus for just slotting evil hunter it gets boosted 25% along with a crit buff.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Plus for just slotting evil hunter it gets boosted 25% along with a crit buff.
You mean slotting and activating3 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
You mean slotting and activating
Is it? The change on PTS is from 25% reduced costs of fighter’s guild abilities to 25% increased damage. I assumed it’s a passive and not just from activating the ability.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Is it? The change on PTS is from 25% reduced costs of fighter’s guild abilities to 25% increased damage. I assumed it’s a passive and not just from activating the ability.
The reduced cost was also active not passive. And so is this.7 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
This right here - everyone saying it's balance for a spammable - YOU ARE RIGHT. It's balanced for a single target spammable.
The AoE portion is really whats getting me. Why is it doing so much aoe damage when other skills it is balanced to be equal to are not?
Ever checked other AoE spammable and semi spammable skills?
It does more damage to one target than AoE skill and less in AoE than AoE skills. True, its ranged. But also carve has the whole DoT on it to all targets shtick.
3 -
kaizen914✭✭✭
Ever checked other AoE spammable and semi spammable skills?
It does more damage to one target than AoE skill and less in AoE than AoE skills. True, its ranged. But also carve has the whole DoT on it to all targets shtick.
I'm not following your reasoning. What are other AoE spammable skills? I can think of force pulse which has a cleave effect, but that is significantly less than 80% of the main target damage. Reverse Slice is another that has significant splash damage, but that's an execute and doesn't really have any competition.
Carve definitely does less damage than a spammable on pts when you don't factor in the bleed.
0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yeah, I'll have a bar filled with non-class skills, but why does ZOS persist in creating class passives tied to having class skills slotted?
Question, since shards is aoe, does evasion cut the damage 25%?0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
I'm not following your reasoning. What are other AoE spammable skills? I can think of force pulse which has a cleave effect, but that is significantly less than 80% of the main target damage. Reverse Slice is another that has significant splash damage, but that's an execute and doesn't really have any competition.
Carve definitely does less damage than a spammable on pts when you don't factor in the bleed.
for the record, here are the aoe spammable skills that all have the same base damage now-
DK
1. Fiery Breath and morphs
2. Dark Talons and morphs
3. Eruptions first hit
necro
1. Death Scythe and morphs
NB
1. Drain Power and morphs
Sorc
1.Shattering Prison
templar
1. Spear Shards and morphs
2. Sun Shield and Radiant Ward
3. Explosive Charge
DW
1. Whirlwind and its morphs
Bow
1. Arrow Spray and its morphs
destro
1. Impulse and its morphs
2h-
1. Cleave and morphs
all these are spammable and do about the same damage. (+/- 2%)
Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on July 28, 2019 2:45PM9 -
kaizen914✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
for the record, here are the aoe spammable skills that all have the same base damage now-
DK
1. Fiery Breath and morphs
2. Dark Talons and morphs
3. Eruptions first hit
necro
1. Death Scythe and morphs
NB
1. Drain Power and morphs
Sorc
1.Shattering Prison
templar
1. Spear Shards and morphs
2. Sun Shield and Radiant Ward
3. Explosive Charge
DW
1. Whirlwind and its morphs
Bow
1. Arrow Spray and its morphs
destro
1. Impulse and its morphs
2h-
1. Cleave and morphs
all these are spammable and do about the same damage. (+/- 2%)
So I haven't tested all of the class skills, but currently on the pts, my silver shards are sitting at 8032 tooltip damage:
Carve: 6735
Acid Spray: 6735
Whirling blades: 6957
1 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
I'm not following your reasoning. What are other AoE spammable skills? I can think of force pulse which has a cleave effect, but that is significantly less than 80% of the main target damage. Reverse Slice is another that has significant splash damage, but that's an execute and doesn't really have any competition.
Carve definitely does less damage than a spammable on pts when you don't factor in the bleed.
Above this message you got the list from Lightspeedflashb14_ESO
Current version of silvershard is single target spammable with AoE component. As such its stronger on 1 target than AoE spammables, but weaker in AoE as I demonstrated. Already on 2 targets the damage +- equalizes (still not counting carve bleed at all mind you). Whetever that makes it better than any other single target spammable or not can be put to discussion, but calling it OP (not claiming you did, but its definitely going in that direction) is a joke.
Also every other single target spammable is stronger on 1 target. Maybe not enough to make them more interesting, but they are.
Also you should go check PTS. This is forum for PTS. Instead of spewing incorrect statements (tho that seems to be the trend around here when comparing e-peen tooltips).
Saying Force Pulse cleave significantly less than 80% when it is literally 20% stronger -_-Edited by SodanTok on July 28, 2019 4:09PM4 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭So I haven't tested all of the class skills, but currently on the pts, my silver shards are sitting at 8032 tooltip damage:
Carve: 6735
Acid Spray: 6735
Whirling blades: 6957
your higher tool tip with whirling blades is because of higher stats.
so let's take the 8023 and 75% of the is 6017.25. now shards will give you more damage when you are facing only 2 targets. any more than that, other aoe spammable will give you more damage.
silver shards=SS
other aoe spammables= AOESP
1 target
SS-8032
AOESP-6735
2 targets-
SS- 6017.25+8023=14040.25
AOESP- 6735*2= 13470
3 targets-
SS- 6017.25*2+8023 =20057.5
AOESP- 6735*3 = 20205
4 targets-
SS- 6017.25*3+8023 = 26074.75
AOESP- 6735*4 = 26940
5 targets-
SS- 6017.25*4+8023 = 32092
AOESP- 6735*5 = 33675
6 targets-
SS- 6017.25*5+8023 =38109.25
AOESP- 6735*6 = 40410
in my opinion, this is balanced. not even taking into consideration the secondary effect of each, size, damage modifiers, etc etc.
also, the cleave damage on force pulse, here is the tooltip on my magsorc on the pts-
2900*3= 8700, the cleave damage is 9886. so that is 12% stronger, with a huge condition, that the target is burning, concussed or chilled.Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on July 28, 2019 4:20PM5 -
kaizen914✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
your higher tool tip with whirling blades is because of higher stats.
so let's take the 8023 and 75% of the is 6017.25. now shards will give you more damage when you are facing only 2 targets. any more than that, other aoe spammable will give you more damage.
silver shards=SS
other aoe spammables= AOESP
1 target
SS-8032
AOESP-6735
2 targets-
SS- 6017.25+8023=14040.25
AOESP- 6735*2= 13470
3 targets-
SS- 6017.25*2+8023 =20057.5
AOESP- 6735*3 = 20205
4 targets-
SS- 6017.25*3+8023 = 26074.75
AOESP- 6735*4 = 26940
5 targets-
SS- 6017.25*4+8023 = 32092
AOESP- 6735*5 = 33675
6 targets-
SS- 6017.25*5+8023 =38109.25
AOESP- 6735*6 = 40410
in my opinion, this is balanced. not even taking into consideration the secondary effect of each, size, damage modifiers, etc etc.
also, the cleave damage on force pulse, here is the tooltip on my magsorc on the pts-
2900*3= 8700, the cleave damage is 9886. so that is 12% stronger, with a huge condition, that the target is burning, concussed or chilled.
The issue isn't the damage of the AoE, it's that it's tacked on to a single target spammable, meaning you get very high, completely incidental AoE damage without losing out on single target dps.
I'm interested in the AoE damage vs other single target spammables.
Currently this is a two in one skill - it is competitive or possibly even the strongest single target spammable outside of flurry while being very competitive for AoE dps as you show in your math above.
This, combined with the fighters guild passives make it a no brainier for many builds.1 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
The issue isn't the damage of the AoE, it's that it's tacked on to a single target spammable, meaning you get very high, completely incidental AoE damage without losing out on single target dps.
I'm interested in the AoE damage vs other single target spammables.
Currently this is a two in one skill - it is competitive or possibly even the strongest single target spammable outside of flurry while being very competitive for AoE dps as you show in your math above.
This, combined with the fighters guild passives make it a no brainier for many builds.
Possibly even the strongest single target spammable?
On a stamsorc on PTS, here are the crit values I get from various attacks:
Rapid Strikes: 17685
Crushing Weapon: 15369
Silver Shards: 14881
Wrecking Blow: 21243
Shrouded Daggers: 12810
Carve: 11799
Really doesn't seem that out of whack to me.
Each of those options has pros and cons ...
Rapid Strikes is just a straight spammable.
Crushing Weapon has additional damage via Spell Orb and a heal for 25% of its damage and grants a damage shield for slotting.
Silver Shards has splash damage and grants +3% weapon damage for slotting.
Wrecking Blow is by far the strongest spammable, and it grants Empower, but it has a cast time.
Shrouded Daggers hits 3 targets, can be used as an interrupt, and can grant Major Brutality.
Carve is the weakest option, but it also has a significant bleed and can be massively buffed for AoE using the Master 2H.
Also worth noting that the weapon abilities can proc enchants and poisons whereas Crushing Weapon and Silver Shards cannot.
I would say that the best comparison for Silver Shards is actually Acid Spray.
On a slightly different setup with a bunch of target skeletons, I see Acid Spray critting against *all targets* (8 of them) for 11441 with a 4s DoT attached versus Silver Shards critting for 13090 on the primary target and 10212 on the additional targets.Edited by LiquidPony on July 28, 2019 6:35PM8 -
kaizen914✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »
Possibly even the strongest single target spammable?
On a stamsorc on PTS, here are the crit values I get from various attacks:
Rapid Strikes: 17685
Crushing Weapon: 15369
Silver Shards: 14881
Wrecking Blow: 21243
Shrouded Daggers: 12810
Carve: 11799
Really doesn't seem that out of whack to me.
Each of those options has pros and cons ...
Rapid Strikes is just a straight spammable.
Crushing Weapon has additional damage via Spell Orb and a heal for 25% of its damage and grants a damage shield for slotting.
Silver Shards has splash damage and grants +3% weapon damage for slotting.
Wrecking Blow is by far the strongest spammable, and it grants Empower, but it has a cast time.
Shrouded Daggers hits 3 targets, can be used as an interrupt, and can grant Major Brutality.
Carve is the weakest option, but it also has a significant bleed and can be massively buffed for AoE using the Master 2H.
Also worth noting that the weapon abilities can proc enchants and poisons whereas Crushing Weapon and Silver Shards cannot.
I would say that the best comparison for Silver Shards is actually Acid Spray.
On a slightly different setup with a bunch of target skeletons, I see Acid Spray critting against *all targets* (8 of them) for 11441 with a 4s DoT attached versus Silver Shards critting for 13090 on the primary target and 10212 on the additional targets.
Speaking entirely from a pve trials point of view:
So carve is definitely intended to serve more as a DoT going forward. It is slotted and used once per rotation to apply that.
Shrouded daggers seems more like a utility skill.
Crushing weapon seems like it could use a look...dont think it's especially popular. Maybe for very heal intensive fights?
So this leaves WB and SS...
1. Can you use WB with the same frequency as other spammables? I have not been able to even though the cast time is nerfed. Maybe it's latency, but I get one less WB use than SS use per DoT refresh cycle. It also lacks the passives that SS provides. This matters for 2h more because 2h passives are weaker than DW and it relies on execute more anyway.
2. What situations do you not need the splash damage more than the WB damage?
vCR HM and vSS HMs both heavily reward AoE damage
vMoL you have adds as well but then you also get the daedric damage bonus.
vHoF HM is maybe the least AoE intensive?
Anyway I appreciate you providing some numbers to back this up.
0 -
20% bonus dmg to werewolves and vamps on top of the already great damage... poor poor werewolves0
-
Kolzki✭✭✭✭✭Having tested it at the weekend I can add snipe to the list of skills that are way stronger than silver shards in a rotation.
It might be useful if you know that you’ll be hitting undead/Daedra, particularly in trash.0 -
kaizen914✭✭✭Having tested it at the weekend I can add snipe to the list of skills that are way stronger than silver shards in a rotation.
It might be useful if you know that you’ll be hitting undead/Daedra, particularly in trash.
I've been testing on iron atro target dummy, which I believe is not daedra.0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Speaking entirely from a pve trials point of view:
So carve is definitely intended to serve more as a DoT going forward. It is slotted and used once per rotation to apply that.
Shrouded daggers seems more like a utility skill.
Crushing weapon seems like it could use a look...dont think it's especially popular. Maybe for very heal intensive fights?
So this leaves WB and SS...
1. Can you use WB with the same frequency as other spammables? I have not been able to even though the cast time is nerfed. Maybe it's latency, but I get one less WB use than SS use per DoT refresh cycle. It also lacks the passives that SS provides. This matters for 2h more because 2h passives are weaker than DW and it relies on execute more anyway.
2. What situations do you not need the splash damage more than the WB damage?
vCR HM and vSS HMs both heavily reward AoE damage
vMoL you have adds as well but then you also get the daedric damage bonus.
vHoF HM is maybe the least AoE intensive?
Anyway I appreciate you providing some numbers to back this up.
Carve/Brawler is used as both a DoT and a spammable for cleave-intensive fights, particularly when used with a Master 2H. Lots of people run this setup in vSS, for trash, for Lokke, and for Nahvii. It's a great setup for trash in any Trial, as it will hit *much* harder than Silver Shards when buffed up with Titanic Cleave.
See for instance the setup here used in Hodor's God Slayer run: https://www.esologs.com/reports/KRjNA3Qnk2dyPt7W#fight=last&type=summary&source=9
I honestly can't see any circumstance where I'd want to use Silver Shards as a spammable in PvE. Maybe I'm wrong. On a stamnecro DW setup I don't even see where you'd have space to run it. I guess you could replace Venom Skull but in most fights you barely use Venom Skull at all because you've got other DoTs to keep up and deep in execute it's Whirling Blades spam FTW. And taking Venom Skull off the bar for Silver Shards is a big loss in crit chance in execute. And given the current state of PTS, no stam build has time to spam Silver Shards when they already don't even have time to buff all of their ST DoTs with Cruel Flurry.
I suppose for really cleave intensive fights like Lokke or Nahvii, Silver Shards could be an option if you want to go DW rather than 2H or Bow/Bow. But that's fine. It doesn't seem OP and it's nice to have options. Personally I'll stick with 2H for those fights because beyond Carve/Brawler, I've got splash damage and Reverse Slice and OP sustain.Edited by LiquidPony on July 29, 2019 3:33PM2 -
kaizen914✭✭✭Good points.
I might use SS just so I can run a monster set and have slightly higher boss damage (at the expense of the very strong carves that Master's gets).
Sustain seems much better this patch, but you're right it is a little harder to sustain with SS. Can still get through a 21m dummy but with WB my resource basically doesn't drop.0
