Justice System PVP (details of past announcment provided)

Araxleon

https://imgur.com/a/XXC3p4W
When the justice system was first announced it was going to have PVP aspects to it, should they revisit the idea?

Mashille

Never gonna happen no matter any polls, pleas or persuasions. Sorry to be a downer on the situation, I'd love to see something like it but ZOS just won't do something like this.

Araxleon

Mashille wrote: »

Never gonna happen no matter any polls, pleas or persuasions. Sorry to be a downer on the situation, I'd love to see something like it but ZOS just won't do something like this.

I only bring it up because it seems they were very close to implementing it and backed out last second.

rfennell_ESO

Is there really a demand for being able to kill that doofus with 3 guards chasing him?

VaranisArano

The PVP bounty system was removed because ZOS couldn't figure out how to prevent it from being used to grief players, and without that, PVE players justifiably panned it.

So unless ZOS has figured out how to prevent bounties from becoming griefing, it ain't happening.

Tandor

Araxleon wrote: »

Mashille wrote: »

Never gonna happen no matter any polls, pleas or persuasions. Sorry to be a downer on the situation, I'd love to see something like it but ZOS just won't do something like this.

I only bring it up because it seems they were very close to implementing it and backed out last second.

Not really, they indicated at the outset that it was a provisional plan, and when they got down to its implementation they realised that there was no way of implementing it without it being exploited. They also had the experience of Imperial City which demonstrated here and elsewhere that there was massive opposition to locking PvE content behind PvP.

That was then, and the only thing that has changed since has been the introduction of dueling which has removed most of the original case for adding a way of having one-on-one combat in open world zones because dueling now provides that. Moreover, PvPers who were arguing for the Justice System because it would provide new content for them also now have additional content in the form of Battlegrounds.

This was the announcement of the dropping of PvP content in the Justice System. It was made in January 2016 and you will see that it refers to many caveats having been expressed as long ago as 2014. Scroll down to General Status Updates for the relevant bit:

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/25563

Jagdkommando

never heard of it, but sounds very interesting. Also they can add kinda caravan system traders/thieves/defenders
Anyway ZOS put big and heavy bolt on us, never mind xD

TheShadowScout

It was an interesting idea.

But they decided against it. And not in an "no plans at the moment" way, but in the "nah, we are not gonna do this..." way.

Mostly because they were worried about gankmasters sneaking after hapless players trying to do their TG dailies, and ganking them hard until they sobquit. Which would be fun for the gankers, not so much for the rest of the playerbase... and thus lessen the enjoyment of ESO in general, resulting in less profit for the company.

So there is that.

Best we can hope for is that -maaaybe- someday they might revive the PvP part in a different way, as PvE Enforcer Guild for "catch the criminal" miniquests...

And yeah, that did leave the justice system with a bit less bite then they had initially planned. Something I often lament when people don't even try to be sneaky about their crime sprees... and leaves me wishing for more justice, better justice, Great Justice!

Jagdkommando

Tandor wrote: »

Araxleon wrote: »

Mashille wrote: »

Never gonna happen no matter any polls, pleas or persuasions. Sorry to be a downer on the situation, I'd love to see something like it but ZOS just won't do something like this.

I only bring it up because it seems they were very close to implementing it and backed out last second.

Not really, they indicated at the outset that it was a provisional plan, and when they got down to its implementation they realised that there was no way of implementing it without it being exploited. They also had the experience of Imperial City which demonstrated here and elsewhere that there was massive opposition to locking PvE content behind PvP.

That was then, and the only thing that has changed since has been the introduction of dueling which has removed most of the original case for adding a way of having one-on-one combat in open world zones because dueling now provides that. Moreover, PvPers who were arguing for the Justice System because it would provide new content for them also now have additional content in the form of Battlegrounds.

This was the announcement of the dropping of PvP content in the Justice System. It was made in January 2016 and you will see that it refers to many caveats having been expressed as long ago as 2014. Scroll down to General Status Updates for the relevant bit:

https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/25563

they can implement it as they did in Cyro, we cant make AP with killing a friend too many times from opposite alliance, thats it

Tandor

VaranisArano wrote: »

The PVP bounty system was removed because ZOS couldn't figure out how to prevent it from being used to grief players, and without that, PVE players justifiably panned it.

So unless ZOS has figured out how to prevent bounties from becoming griefing, it ain't happening.

I don't think it was just griefing players they were concerned about. Imagine the scenario where you and I are friends in the game. Tonight I play the criminal and you play the Enforcer, tomorrow night we swap roles. Each time we collude with each other and we both get cheap experience, loot and Justice skill advancements through what is essentially exploitation of the system. There'd be no way to prevent that, and ZOS knew it.

mayasunrising

i don't think it will ever happen, but I think - as long as it was an opt in/out sort of thing - that this would be pretty neat. UO had an Order/Chaos PvP system that actually worked really well and did make their in-game justice feel more alive ie; not just guards whacking someone that picked a pocket. It helped make the world feel more immersive.

VaranisArano

Tandor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The PVP bounty system was removed because ZOS couldn't figure out how to prevent it from being used to grief players, and without that, PVE players justifiably panned it.

So unless ZOS has figured out how to prevent bounties from becoming griefing, it ain't happening.

I don't think it was just griefing players they were concerned about. Imagine the scenario where you and I are friends in the game. Tonight I play the criminal and you play the Enforcer, tomorrow night we swap roles. Each time we collude with each other and we both get cheap experience, loot and Justice skill advancements through what is essentially exploitation of the system. There'd be no way to prevent that, and ZOS knew it.

Exploitation was obviously a concern. That's a very "developer point of view" concern, as in, that's not something most players will worry about.

But every time this idea comes up, the major problem from the player perspective is griefing. ZOS didn't specifically call out griefing, but this quote "The game's central concept of "PvP in PvP areas and be safe in safe areas" needs to stay the way it is." Indicates that they are aware of player sentiment about not being subjected to PVP in non-PVP zones.

So I guess that's two major strikes against the idea: exploiting and the potential for griefing with PVP in PVE zones.

mayasunrising

Tandor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The PVP bounty system was removed because ZOS couldn't figure out how to prevent it from being used to grief players, and without that, PVE players justifiably panned it.

So unless ZOS has figured out how to prevent bounties from becoming griefing, it ain't happening.

I don't think it was just griefing players they were concerned about. Imagine the scenario where you and I are friends in the game. Tonight I play the criminal and you play the Enforcer, tomorrow night we swap roles. Each time we collude with each other and we both get cheap experience, loot and Justice skill advancements through what is essentially exploitation of the system. There'd be no way to prevent that, and ZOS knew it.

I agree. It's a shame too, because the justice system has a lot of potential, but it's just kinda...meh. As a player that love to RP nefarious characters, I wish there was more risk involved in thieving, skullduggery and murder. It's like, all I need is a invis potion and I don't have to fear anything. Or I just select the "Clemency! Not it! Nyah!" option. haha

darkblue5

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Is there really a demand for being able to kill that doofus with 3 guards chasing him?

Given how hard people chase a NB that ganked their buddy (up 2 seconds later due to Templar rez) I'd suspect the joy of Xv1ing fleeing targets has to be significant.

Tandor

mayasunrising wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The PVP bounty system was removed because ZOS couldn't figure out how to prevent it from being used to grief players, and without that, PVE players justifiably panned it.

So unless ZOS has figured out how to prevent bounties from becoming griefing, it ain't happening.

I don't think it was just griefing players they were concerned about. Imagine the scenario where you and I are friends in the game. Tonight I play the criminal and you play the Enforcer, tomorrow night we swap roles. Each time we collude with each other and we both get cheap experience, loot and Justice skill advancements through what is essentially exploitation of the system. There'd be no way to prevent that, and ZOS knew it.

I agree. It's a shame too, because the justice system has a lot of potential, but it's just kinda...meh. As a player that love to RP nefarious characters, I wish there was more risk involved in thieving, skullduggery and murder. It's like, all I need is a invis potion and I don't have to fear anything. Or I just select the "Clemency! Not it! Nyah!" option. haha

Agreed, I think most PvEers who have opposed PvP in PvE content have happily accepted the need to beef up the PvE content and risk.

Tommy_The_Gun

It would only lead to gankers players to camp spots where ppl steal stuff & farm furniture plans & gold. Going even further it would cause a global economy gold crisis.

YaYaPineapple

Non-PvP dollars > PvP dollars.

Non-PvP players outnumber PvP players by a huge amount.

rotaugen454

This would be the griefiest grief in history!

MattT1988

This topic has been done to absolute death and belongs back in the scrapheap, I wish people would stop bringing it up. Shouldn’t happen, won’t happen unless there was a proper opt in and out system that doesn’t penalise people who don’t want to take part in the PvP aspect of it.

If you make it a “forced” system then you’ll be ripping off the people who bought the TG and DB DLC’s with the expressed understanding that they were PvE only content, that isn’t fair so it shouldn’t happen.

Back to the scrapheap you go.

Mr_Walker

Terrible idea.

Watchdog

The moment they implement PvP into clearly PvE content, I will unsub and delete the game. Not a single dollar from me for ZOS from then on.

I am pretty certain ZOS is aware of the fact that this attitude is shared by many of the people who provide a steady revenue stream to ZOS, resulting in such idea to be buried deep undeground. Permanently, unless ZOS wants to kill ESO.

FrancisCrawford

Watchdog wrote: »

The moment they implement PvP into clearly PvE content, I will unsub and delete the game. Not a single dollar from me for ZOS from then on.

I am pretty certain ZOS is aware of the fact that this attitude is shared by many of the people who provide a steady revenue stream to ZOS, resulting in such idea to be buried deep undeground. Permanently, unless ZOS wants to kill ESO.

I wouldn't go that far, but I would stop participating in any thief/DB content, including the relevant events, which would likely sour me on events in general. Also, one of my top characters, Grump Ex Wood Elf, would never come out of retirement.

unclesheosnephew

Its a part of the guild activities you can check of for the guild finder page for the guild.Unless they are going to be changing it I see no reason why Justice would be a selectable option

JKorr

Unless the devs managed to find an absolutely adamantine clad way to implement it so it can't be exploited, preferably in a separate instance, no.

What the devs also posted: https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/news/post/25563

General Status Updates

Here are updates on some of the features and issues that the community has been asking about:

We will not be adding in the previously discussed PvP component of the Justice System. We caveated this many times - as I said at the ESO QuakeCon presentation in 2014, it was always going to be very difficult making it fun, but not exploitable. When introducing new systems to the game, our number one goal is to make sure that we don't introduce new problems. Having players enforce justice on the criminal activity of other players has the potential to introduce imbalances and other issues that greatly outweigh any potential gameplay benefits. The game's central concept of "PvP in PvP areas and be safe in safe areas" needs to stay the way it is.

unclesheosnephew

They also said there will never be dragons in eso and look how that turned out

Reistr_the_Unbroken

unclesheosnephew wrote: »

They also said there will never be dragons in eso and look how that turned out

That’s a completely different beast dude, dragons aren’t actual players who could exploit the justice system, hence why the devs said no to the justice system.

Edit: spelling

JKorr

unclesheosnephew wrote: »

They also said there will never be dragons in eso and look how that turned out

See any dragons outside of the story-related Elseweyr zone? They didn't throw dragons into Tamriel world wide. Story-driven one zone dragons are story related. I can accept that. If dragons were suddenly in Stonefalls and Auridon and Glenumbra, I'd have stopped playing.

bmnoble

Part of me would not be against being able to kill those individuals that just run around the main towns killing every NPC in sight, not talking about those thieves that make proper use of the blade of woe but those idiots that kill NPC as though they were grinding zombies earning massive bounties, while kite-ing the guards.

If someone earns a stupidly high bounty eg, 100K+ I think players should be able to kill them but they should not get any rewards for doing so because it would be insanely easy for groups to exploit eg: commits crimes in Hollow city, earns a bounty, has his friends kill him, gets a reward, repeats farming the reward.

But if its just a lazy thief who does not care if they get seen and gets a small bounty on their way to fence their stolen goods they should be left alone.

Otherwise it would be too easy for a player to just sit outside an outlaw refuge kill the players either role playing thieves or just trying to earn some gold.

Just imagine the screams both on the forums and in zone chat, of players who lost a load of motifs/furniture plans before they could launder them.

Varaug_Gaming

yes and the person killing the criminal gains his bounty as gold $$$

Moonsorrow

Feel the backhand of Justice! *Minsc imitation*

I`d like it. But, it would have to be a toggle that can put on volunteering to it so no griefing and full pve players could play as before without forced pvp.

Also, no gold or other rewards, so no possible to exploit it. Thrill and excitement should be reward enough for all who like pvp and risks. Being rewarded for everything is dumb imo anyways, the playing and fun itself should be rewarding.

EDIT: Thought about it for a moment after and i think there could be a reward, but it would need to be a once per account type of Daily/Weekly quest, that could have options for both criminals as objectives and for the criminal hunters, then only get reward like that so could not exploit. Rewards could be some runebox fragments to lawful & evil costumes or other vanity items, or outfit styles. Thus making it fun and not exploitable. ZOS should hire me, this one has more great ideas also.

danno8

They should just do what SWTOR did and have a PvP instance of all available PvE areas. You can switch between instances whenever you want.

Those that don't want it simply never go into the PvP instance. Those that do can. Everyone wins.

In SWTOR those PvP instances are typically empty, proving very few actually care for it, but at least we would hear the end of all the "open world PvP" chatter.