Orb Synergy Change and Shards

WrathOfInnos

Not sure how I feel about this one. I want to hear what others think. With the update to orbs today, a single orb can be used by an entire trial group, effectively being as useful as 11 casts of Shards. Since they share the same synergy cooldown, should Shards get the same treatment (one cast can be synergized by multiple players)? Or maybe make Shards and Orbs have separate synergy cooldowns? Maybe there are other ideas? Or just leave everything as it is on PTS?

EtTuBrutus

Absolutely should

EtTuBrutus

It's pretty ridiculous how many class skills have been gutted to be replaced with others

jypcy

Especially with the change to only having one orb active at a time I think positioning for the resource synergy is already going to be a lot more important. Templars retaining the ability to have that synergy in multiple locations simultaneously is already a leg up over classes imo, so I don’t think they need to buff that ability’s utility further.

Or, if the group is stacked such that everyone can benefit from a single orb anyway, I don’t see why the shard would need multiple synergies.

Saril_Durzam

If tank positions in a diff place as DPSers (this happens alot), maybe you wont be able to reach everyone with the single orb. You will cast Shards on tank and Orb for DDs. Would love to see Shards synergy for all raid but honestly Templars is already one of the few classes that will heal on raids and dungeons so i guess we dont deserve more buffs.

exeeter702

There is no issue here. Perhaps a slight increase in cost for orbs due to how much it can yield for numerous players given a single cast compared to shards, but outside of that nothing needs change.

Shards will always be better for tanks or when fast precise resource restore utility is needed. Orbs will almost always take longer to reach a given target depending on the encounter. If you give shards the same treatment (multiple synergies per single cast) you will be right back to where we were with templar healers invalidating any other healer class.

Runefang

Feels like the Mystic Orb will be really useful on trash pulls with this change. So that’s a positive.

But the slow speed on the healing orb will be painful. Healer positioning will be even more important.

WrathOfInnos

How would multi-synergy Shards invalidate non-Templars? Seems like throwing 1 orb or 1 shard to the DPS sack every 20s would be equally easy. I agree that Shards are better for the tank, but that is true regardless and multi-synergy has no effect. I suppose it may save Templar healers a bar slot if they were to drop orbs, not sure this is a massive advantage though since they would be losing a strong heal too.

SodanTok

Orbs were always used as the main source of sustain synergy... and they will continue to do so.
Shards were always used as source of precise or guaranteed synergy drop on target of choice (usually tank)... and they will be needed more than ever for it because of how new orbs move slowly and you get to make just one.

Imo, shards got buffed by this change more than anything already.

WrathOfInnos

So the interesting thing about the 2 possible changes I mentioned is that neither option has any effect in the traditional scenario (orbs on group and Shards on tank).

Independent Synergy cooldowns would incentivize throwing the occasional orb to the tank (who is on shard cooldown) or occasional shard to the group (that one player could benefit from while on orb cooldown). It would also make Magplar DPS more desirable, since they could give more Shards to the group than a single healer could, while healers mainly provide orbs (and could be any class).

Multiple Synergy Shards would have a different effect. If they were kept on tank it wouldn’t matter since nobody else would be able to use them anyway. This would encourage alternating Shards between tank and group, and possibly replacing orbs with them. It could also be interesting in places like vAS, where Olo could be placed with a Shard and every DPS could use the synergy while they grab the Major courage buff (easier to time than a single moving orb, but not any more powerful).

I’m not sure either of these are the right approach, just seems worth discussing options.

exeeter702

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

So the interesting thing about the 2 possible changes I mentioned is that neither option has any effect in the traditional scenario (orbs on group and Shards on tank).

Independent Synergy cooldowns would incentivize throwing the occasional orb to the tank (who is on shard cooldown) or occasional shard to the group (that one player could benefit from while on orb cooldown). It would also make Magplar DPS more desirable, since they could give more Shards to the group than a single healer could, while healers mainly provide orbs (and could be any class).

Multiple Synergy Shards would have a different effect. If they were kept on tank it wouldn’t matter since nobody else would be able to use them anyway. This would encourage alternating Shards between tank and group, and possibly replacing orbs with them. It could also be interesting in places like vAS, where Olo could be placed with a Shard and every DPS could use the synergy while they grab the Major courage buff (easier to time than a single moving orb, but not any more powerful).

I’m not sure either of these are the right approach, just seems worth discussing options.

1) Without changing the effects of the synergy, if you place shards and orbs on independent cooldowns you have effectively just doubled the potency of templar healers ability to restore resources to allies, thus completely rendering non templar healers unviable.

2) if you make shards have multiple synergy pops per one cast, you have effectively created a scenario where there is little reason to use orbs over shards since in practical application, shards is far more reliable in most scenarios where resource restore is priorty. If the HPS of orbs takes priority, it will do so at only certain moments of a fight of which templar healers with have both skills slotted of which no other healer would be able to compare.

The balance of shards vs orbs has always been orbs target application range plus healing window uptime vs shards single target per cast faster target speed where reaching the same amount of players in a group takes longer.

WrathOfInnos

exeeter702 wrote: »

1) Without changing the effects of the synergy, if you place shards and orbs on independent cooldowns you have effectively just doubled the potency of templar healers ability to restore resources to allies, thus completely rendering non templar healers unviable.

I think it’s a stretch to say double. 1 orb can provide resource restore to 11 allies every 20s with 1 GCD (2-3 max depending on positioning of various groups and tanks). To get that amount of resource restore out of Shards you would need to cast it 11 times every 20s, and each cast would need to be synergized within 2s by the intended target so you could throw the next one. You would also need to remember the order you threw the shards to each ally so you could give them each shards as their synergy cooldowns expired.

A more realistic scenario is for a healer to throw a couple of orbs so timed so everyone gets them on cooldown (11 resource restore synergies every 20s, or 0.55 restores per second) and also throw Shards every 8s (0.125 restores per second). Each of these skills would use about 2.5 GCDs over the 20s period. The Templar would end up at .675 restore synergies at the cost of using 2 bar slots and casting twice as many skills, other healers would be at 0.55 restore synergies per second. Comparing these numbers (.675/.55) we see that Templar has about a 23% higher restore synergy rate than other classes, while requiring a much more active play style.

exeeter702 wrote: »

2) if you make shards have multiple synergy pops per one cast, you have effectively created a scenario where there is little reason to use orbs over shards since in practical application, shards is far more reliable in most scenarios where resource restore is priorty. If the HPS of orbs takes priority, it will do so at only certain moments of a fight of which templar healers with have both skills slotted of which no other healer would be able to compare.

I agree with this description of the effect. I’m not sure it would be a negative though. It would just be a situation where a class skill could be used to replace a generic skill, with each having an advantage in some situations. These types of options are what make different classes feel different. It would be similar to DK chains, sure other classes have ways of grouping up enemies, but one class has arguably the most effective one in most scenarios.

Edit: To be clear, I don’t think Shards should get both unlimited synergies and an independent cooldown. That would in fact give them double the resource restoring potential and would certainly be overpowered. I’m discussing whether either of these changes would be good individually, or if anyone has any other ideas.

Ender1310

Nah they are different. Orbs travel shard stationary. Just different spells.

WrathOfInnos

Ender1310 wrote: »

Nah they are different. Orbs travel shard stationary. Just different spells.

Sufficiently different that using one should not prevent use of the other? Or you support the current implementation on PTS?

exeeter702

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

1) Without changing the effects of the synergy, if you place shards and orbs on independent cooldowns you have effectively just doubled the potency of templar healers ability to restore resources to allies, thus completely rendering non templar healers unviable.

I think it’s a stretch to say double. 1 orb can provide resource restore to 11 allies every 20s with 1 GCD (2-3 max depending on positioning of various groups and tanks). To get that amount of resource restore out of Shards you would need to cast it 11 times every 20s, and each cast would need to be synergized within 2s by the intended target so you could throw the next one. You would also need to remember the order you threw the shards to each ally so you could give them each shards as their synergy cooldowns expired.

A more realistic scenario is for a healer to throw a couple of orbs so timed so everyone gets them on cooldown (11 resource restore synergies every 20s, or 0.55 restores per second) and also throw Shards every 8s (0.125 restores per second). Each of these skills would use about 2.5 GCDs over the 20s period. The Templar would end up at .675 restore synergies at the cost of using 2 bar slots and casting twice as many skills, other healers would be at 0.55 restore synergies per second. Comparing these numbers (.675/.55) we see that Templar has about a 23% higher restore synergy rate than other classes, while requiring a much more active play style.

exeeter702 wrote: »

2) if you make shards have multiple synergy pops per one cast, you have effectively created a scenario where there is little reason to use orbs over shards since in practical application, shards is far more reliable in most scenarios where resource restore is priorty. If the HPS of orbs takes priority, it will do so at only certain moments of a fight of which templar healers with have both skills slotted of which no other healer would be able to compare.

I agree with this description of the effect. I’m not sure it would be a negative though. It would just be a situation where a class skill could be used to replace a generic skill, with each having an advantage in some situations. These types of options are what make different classes feel different. It would be similar to DK chains, sure other classes have ways of grouping up enemies, but one class has arguably the most effective one in most scenarios.

Edit: To be clear, I don’t think Shards should get both unlimited synergies and an independent cooldown. That would in fact give them double the resource restoring potential and would certainly be overpowered. I’m discussing whether either of these changes would be good individually, or if anyone has any other ideas.

Reading a bit too much into the double statement.

Non templar healer = (x) resource restored every 20 seconds to recipient.

Templar healer = (x*2) resource restored every 20 seconds to recipient.

You are applying the pts change of orbs in the hypothetical. I am not.

Orbs offering multiple synergy pops per single cast AND having an independent CD from shards is completely ridiculous and would solidify templars without discussion as the only healer worth a ***.

WrathOfInnos

Yes, definitely discussing this under the assumption that the PTS changes to Orbs stay. It is this change that devalues Shards in a few ways. Any healer can easily get Orbs to an unlimited number of allies exactly on cooldown and with relatively few casts, so supplementing Orbs with Shards is not really necessary. Previously it would take a massive effort of well-times and carefully-aimed Orbs to achieve this same outcome, and Shards were a useful supplementary tool for restoring resources to anyone who missed an Orb. The simplification of the entire Orb process has just left Shards in a strange place.

I guess maybe another analogy might help explain what I mean, like hypothetically if Soul Splitting Trap was buffed to hit 11 enemies and was considered the same DoT as Crippling Grasp (as in casting one would overwrite the other, much like the shared synergy between Shards and Orbs), why would any Nightblade ever slot their class skill? Sure maybe it comes with a couple of class passives, and was previously a better active skill, but it’s a new game out there with Scalebreaker.