Puncturing Sweep

  • Destruent
    Destruent
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    jypcy wrote: »
    Destruent wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »

    it's really convenient to respond to the first part and not the second. there is a reason ranged magicka dd's don't use sweep, but it isn't because it does less damage than ele weapon, it's because it's melee and has a very high cost.

    Confirmed, you haven't looked at vSS at all. on All fights you can go meelee-DPS 24/7 and when using sweeps sustain is even better than it is with ele-weapon. so people don't use sweeps bc doesn't provide any dps increase over a ranged-spammable...
    jypcy wrote: »
    Please excuse the shamefully low numbers, I never bother to practice parsing and was too lazy to dig out actual parse gear.

    Full ele weapon parse with direct damage cp and inferno frontbar:

    j6n16mas7oqz.png

    88 uses of the skill totaled 2.02m damage and 6.9k dps


    Full sweeps parse with dot cp and lightning frontbar:

    lng1m0ctch2o.png

    ~63 uses of the skill totaled 2.57m damage and 8.8 dps.


    Even with the slightly higher crit ratio on sweeps, I think we can agree that the damage per cast considerably exceeds that of ele weapon.

    Also note that the burning light procs on the sweeps parse were nearly double that of the ele weapon parse, which I don't think we can attribute entirely to the random proc chance.

    I did miss a fair amount of light attacks on the sweeps parse, but CMX indicated that most of those missed were on my backbar and thus not a factor of sweeps weaving. I had four fewer fb light attacks on the sweeps parse compared to the ele weapon parse.

    Usability against moving targets? Viability in a full build? Still fair questions imo, and more so where consideration of "actual combat anything" comes into play. But if we're talking pure damage of spammables, yes, sweeps is higher (I believe highest, but I'm not dedicated/invested enough to bother replicating builds and testing across characters to try to prove this).

    This post shows the problem perfectly...even though sweeps does a more DPS itself, it doesn't increase your overall dps (even on a stationary dummy)...

    Agreed on the second part, which I think is due in large part to it benefitting from aoe and dot damage modifiers which is weird for your spammable to do and also cuts away from other very important sources of magplar dps (namely light attacks and jbeam). Though take the overall numbers with a grain of salt. As noted, I’m not practiced in this sort of thing and a better optimized sweeps build might result in marginally higher damage.

    Believe me, i tried for nearly 2 months to make sweeps work in sunspire (where it is easy to play meelee...), it just doesn't work. i always ended up doing more/the same dps with elemental weapon while getting more flexibility in terms of positioning.
    problem is, you can't really optimize for sweeps without loosing out on dps on other skills...
    changing sweeps to a single-target skill with splash-damage (like force pulse) would be a nice change imo. getting rid of cast-times would be another nice addition aswell. i really enjoy playing with instant-skills, makes the rotation a lot smoother and easier to play especially in fights where you have to react/reposition/block etc.

    Noobplar
  • jypcy
    jypcy
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    EtTuBrutus wrote: »
    jypcy wrote: »
    Destruent wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »

    it's really convenient to respond to the first part and not the second. there is a reason ranged magicka dd's don't use sweep, but it isn't because it does less damage than ele weapon, it's because it's melee and has a very high cost.

    Confirmed, you haven't looked at vSS at all. on All fights you can go meelee-DPS 24/7 and when using sweeps sustain is even better than it is with ele-weapon. so people don't use sweeps bc doesn't provide any dps increase over a ranged-spammable...
    jypcy wrote: »
    Please excuse the shamefully low numbers, I never bother to practice parsing and was too lazy to dig out actual parse gear.

    Full ele weapon parse with direct damage cp and inferno frontbar:

    j6n16mas7oqz.png

    88 uses of the skill totaled 2.02m damage and 6.9k dps


    Full sweeps parse with dot cp and lightning frontbar:

    lng1m0ctch2o.png

    ~63 uses of the skill totaled 2.57m damage and 8.8 dps.


    Even with the slightly higher crit ratio on sweeps, I think we can agree that the damage per cast considerably exceeds that of ele weapon.

    Also note that the burning light procs on the sweeps parse were nearly double that of the ele weapon parse, which I don't think we can attribute entirely to the random proc chance.

    I did miss a fair amount of light attacks on the sweeps parse, but CMX indicated that most of those missed were on my backbar and thus not a factor of sweeps weaving. I had four fewer fb light attacks on the sweeps parse compared to the ele weapon parse.

    Usability against moving targets? Viability in a full build? Still fair questions imo, and more so where consideration of "actual combat anything" comes into play. But if we're talking pure damage of spammables, yes, sweeps is higher (I believe highest, but I'm not dedicated/invested enough to bother replicating builds and testing across characters to try to prove this).

    This post shows the problem perfectly...even though sweeps does a more DPS itself, it doesn't increase your overall dps (even on a stationary dummy)...

    Agreed on the second part, which I think is due in large part to it benefitting from aoe and dot damage modifiers which is weird for your spammable to do and also cuts away from other very important sources of magplar dps (namely light attacks and jbeam). Though take the overall numbers with a grain of salt. As noted, I’m not practiced in this sort of thing and a better optimized sweeps build might result in marginally higher damage.
    OnThaLoose wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    last time i checked sweep/jabs was the highest damage spammable ability in the entire game

    lol

    Have you used surprise attack?!? Surprise attack does DIRECT damage, all of it, up front- instantly. Oh and it actually does MORE damage than jabs. And if you flank, it reduces their armor by 5% increasing its damage further.

    As far as "last time you checked" - you may want to check again, pal.

    More forum logic. You people make my head hurt.

    Ok, let’s look at surprise attack.

    Optimized parse from Liko for the live patch using SA:

    trx5se9u8yaz.jpeg

    47 uses of the skill totaled 1.68m damage and 7.5k dps.

    Vs my trash setup+parse from the live patch using sweeps, where ~63 uses of the skill totaled 2.57m damage and 8.8 dps.

    The comparison here isn’t as clear because I used more sweeps than he used SAs, so let’s look at actual damage per cast:

    SA: average 35.8k damage per cast
    Sweeps: average 10.3k damage * 4 per cast (41.2k)

    Adjusting for the ~11% higher crit ratio I scored for sweeps would make it around 39k damage per cast. Or even just discount a full 11% of the damage per cast of my sweeps and it averages ~37k per cast, still higher than SA on a highly optimized build used by a parse wizard.

    Again, I’m not saying that sweeps doesn’t have drawbacks in its usability or viability. But I still tend to agree with @ecru that its raw damage potential is higher than most other options if not all of them.

    There's no denying it's tooltip. The game isn't 1 big tooltip comparison. Opportunity cost, counters, ease of use (range, switching targets, for example).

    Weren’t you the one who brought up how counterplay against wrecking blow justifies its damage+stun? I think the same principal applies here, where sweeps’ many drawbacks can be justified with its raw damage (and buff+heal). I don’t have any particular opinion on whether sweeps is overpowered or not, nor whether it’s the best spammable option in actual combat. But given its raw damage potential, it’s probably good that it’s difficult and against some opponents ineffective to use. I’m just aiming to correct all those who are trying to even deny its tooltip haha
    Destruent wrote: »
    jypcy wrote: »
    Destruent wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »

    it's really convenient to respond to the first part and not the second. there is a reason ranged magicka dd's don't use sweep, but it isn't because it does less damage than ele weapon, it's because it's melee and has a very high cost.

    Confirmed, you haven't looked at vSS at all. on All fights you can go meelee-DPS 24/7 and when using sweeps sustain is even better than it is with ele-weapon. so people don't use sweeps bc doesn't provide any dps increase over a ranged-spammable...
    jypcy wrote: »
    Please excuse the shamefully low numbers, I never bother to practice parsing and was too lazy to dig out actual parse gear.

    Full ele weapon parse with direct damage cp and inferno frontbar:

    j6n16mas7oqz.png

    88 uses of the skill totaled 2.02m damage and 6.9k dps


    Full sweeps parse with dot cp and lightning frontbar:

    lng1m0ctch2o.png

    ~63 uses of the skill totaled 2.57m damage and 8.8 dps.


    Even with the slightly higher crit ratio on sweeps, I think we can agree that the damage per cast considerably exceeds that of ele weapon.

    Also note that the burning light procs on the sweeps parse were nearly double that of the ele weapon parse, which I don't think we can attribute entirely to the random proc chance.

    I did miss a fair amount of light attacks on the sweeps parse, but CMX indicated that most of those missed were on my backbar and thus not a factor of sweeps weaving. I had four fewer fb light attacks on the sweeps parse compared to the ele weapon parse.

    Usability against moving targets? Viability in a full build? Still fair questions imo, and more so where consideration of "actual combat anything" comes into play. But if we're talking pure damage of spammables, yes, sweeps is higher (I believe highest, but I'm not dedicated/invested enough to bother replicating builds and testing across characters to try to prove this).

    This post shows the problem perfectly...even though sweeps does a more DPS itself, it doesn't increase your overall dps (even on a stationary dummy)...

    Agreed on the second part, which I think is due in large part to it benefitting from aoe and dot damage modifiers which is weird for your spammable to do and also cuts away from other very important sources of magplar dps (namely light attacks and jbeam). Though take the overall numbers with a grain of salt. As noted, I’m not practiced in this sort of thing and a better optimized sweeps build might result in marginally higher damage.

    Believe me, i tried for nearly 2 months to make sweeps work in sunspire (where it is easy to play meelee...), it just doesn't work. i always ended up doing more/the same dps with elemental weapon while getting more flexibility in terms of positioning.
    problem is, you can't really optimize for sweeps without loosing out on dps on other skills...
    changing sweeps to a single-target skill with splash-damage (like force pulse) would be a nice change imo. getting rid of cast-times would be another nice addition aswell. i really enjoy playing with instant-skills, makes the rotation a lot smoother and easier to play especially in fights where you have to react/reposition/block etc.

    Yep, like said, I’m totally aware that it has a funky place in build optimization and might very well not be the best spammable for overall build damage so I agree with basically all your points here. I do really like the idea mentioned earlier in the thread that I think is essentially the same as yours here where it’s a ST ability that does splash damage, rather than the channel-into-the-void damage lottery it currently is. However, as with the point above, making it more reliable to use (and possibly more consistent with standard build design) probably warrants some nerf to the skill in either damage output or survivability.
    Edited by jypcy on July 31, 2019 4:11PM
  • Muzzick
    Muzzick
    ✭✭✭✭
    Destruent wrote: »
    jypcy wrote: »
    Destruent wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »

    it's really convenient to respond to the first part and not the second. there is a reason ranged magicka dd's don't use sweep, but it isn't because it does less damage than ele weapon, it's because it's melee and has a very high cost.

    Confirmed, you haven't looked at vSS at all. on All fights you can go meelee-DPS 24/7 and when using sweeps sustain is even better than it is with ele-weapon. so people don't use sweeps bc doesn't provide any dps increase over a ranged-spammable...
    jypcy wrote: »
    Please excuse the shamefully low numbers, I never bother to practice parsing and was too lazy to dig out actual parse gear.

    Full ele weapon parse with direct damage cp and inferno frontbar:

    j6n16mas7oqz.png

    88 uses of the skill totaled 2.02m damage and 6.9k dps


    Full sweeps parse with dot cp and lightning frontbar:

    lng1m0ctch2o.png

    ~63 uses of the skill totaled 2.57m damage and 8.8 dps.


    Even with the slightly higher crit ratio on sweeps, I think we can agree that the damage per cast considerably exceeds that of ele weapon.

    Also note that the burning light procs on the sweeps parse were nearly double that of the ele weapon parse, which I don't think we can attribute entirely to the random proc chance.

    I did miss a fair amount of light attacks on the sweeps parse, but CMX indicated that most of those missed were on my backbar and thus not a factor of sweeps weaving. I had four fewer fb light attacks on the sweeps parse compared to the ele weapon parse.

    Usability against moving targets? Viability in a full build? Still fair questions imo, and more so where consideration of "actual combat anything" comes into play. But if we're talking pure damage of spammables, yes, sweeps is higher (I believe highest, but I'm not dedicated/invested enough to bother replicating builds and testing across characters to try to prove this).

    This post shows the problem perfectly...even though sweeps does a more DPS itself, it doesn't increase your overall dps (even on a stationary dummy)...

    Agreed on the second part, which I think is due in large part to it benefitting from aoe and dot damage modifiers which is weird for your spammable to do and also cuts away from other very important sources of magplar dps (namely light attacks and jbeam). Though take the overall numbers with a grain of salt. As noted, I’m not practiced in this sort of thing and a better optimized sweeps build might result in marginally higher damage.

    Believe me, i tried for nearly 2 months to make sweeps work in sunspire (where it is easy to play meelee...), it just doesn't work. i always ended up doing more/the same dps with elemental weapon while getting more flexibility in terms of positioning.
    problem is, you can't really optimize for sweeps without loosing out on dps on other skills...
    changing sweeps to a single-target skill with splash-damage (like force pulse) would be a nice change imo. getting rid of cast-times would be another nice addition aswell. i really enjoy playing with instant-skills, makes the rotation a lot smoother and easier to play especially in fights where you have to react/reposition/block etc.

    Agree here. It really doesn't make a significant difference in a rotation. And even simply spamming the skill may show a marginal increase vs other spammables, not a substantial 40% as previously claimed in this thread (and still not proven in a straight spam parse). In addition, the spamming was just to show that it doesn't do as much damage as it's tooltip may suggest and not relevant in actual playing the game, very few people spam one skill over and over. But even if it had slightly increased damage, it's balanced out with the drawbacks of the skill. It's balanced well against elemental weapon and a good option for those who don't want to do the psijic grind.

    Edited by Muzzick on July 31, 2019 4:18PM
  • Destruent
    Destruent
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭
    Muzzick wrote: »
    Destruent wrote: »
    jypcy wrote: »
    Destruent wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »

    it's really convenient to respond to the first part and not the second. there is a reason ranged magicka dd's don't use sweep, but it isn't because it does less damage than ele weapon, it's because it's melee and has a very high cost.

    Confirmed, you haven't looked at vSS at all. on All fights you can go meelee-DPS 24/7 and when using sweeps sustain is even better than it is with ele-weapon. so people don't use sweeps bc doesn't provide any dps increase over a ranged-spammable...
    jypcy wrote: »
    Please excuse the shamefully low numbers, I never bother to practice parsing and was too lazy to dig out actual parse gear.

    Full ele weapon parse with direct damage cp and inferno frontbar:

    j6n16mas7oqz.png

    88 uses of the skill totaled 2.02m damage and 6.9k dps


    Full sweeps parse with dot cp and lightning frontbar:

    lng1m0ctch2o.png

    ~63 uses of the skill totaled 2.57m damage and 8.8 dps.


    Even with the slightly higher crit ratio on sweeps, I think we can agree that the damage per cast considerably exceeds that of ele weapon.

    Also note that the burning light procs on the sweeps parse were nearly double that of the ele weapon parse, which I don't think we can attribute entirely to the random proc chance.

    I did miss a fair amount of light attacks on the sweeps parse, but CMX indicated that most of those missed were on my backbar and thus not a factor of sweeps weaving. I had four fewer fb light attacks on the sweeps parse compared to the ele weapon parse.

    Usability against moving targets? Viability in a full build? Still fair questions imo, and more so where consideration of "actual combat anything" comes into play. But if we're talking pure damage of spammables, yes, sweeps is higher (I believe highest, but I'm not dedicated/invested enough to bother replicating builds and testing across characters to try to prove this).

    This post shows the problem perfectly...even though sweeps does a more DPS itself, it doesn't increase your overall dps (even on a stationary dummy)...

    Agreed on the second part, which I think is due in large part to it benefitting from aoe and dot damage modifiers which is weird for your spammable to do and also cuts away from other very important sources of magplar dps (namely light attacks and jbeam). Though take the overall numbers with a grain of salt. As noted, I’m not practiced in this sort of thing and a better optimized sweeps build might result in marginally higher damage.

    Believe me, i tried for nearly 2 months to make sweeps work in sunspire (where it is easy to play meelee...), it just doesn't work. i always ended up doing more/the same dps with elemental weapon while getting more flexibility in terms of positioning.
    problem is, you can't really optimize for sweeps without loosing out on dps on other skills...
    changing sweeps to a single-target skill with splash-damage (like force pulse) would be a nice change imo. getting rid of cast-times would be another nice addition aswell. i really enjoy playing with instant-skills, makes the rotation a lot smoother and easier to play especially in fights where you have to react/reposition/block etc.

    Agree here. It really doesn't make a significant difference in a rotation. And even simply spamming the skill may show a marginal increase vs other spammables, not a substantial 40% as previously claimed in this thread (and still not proven in a straight spam parse). In addition, the spamming was just to show that it doesn't do as much damage as it's tooltip may suggest and not relevant in actual playing the game, very few people spam one skill over and over. But even if it had slightly increased damage, it's balanced out with the drawbacks of the skill. It's balanced well against elemental weapon and a good option for those who don't want to do the psijic grind.

    only if you fight the dummy or bosses where you can be meelee all the time, otherwise i'd suggest force pulse which does the same but from range and has an instant cast with destro-passives and better scaling with fire destro ^^
    Noobplar
  • Muzzick
    Muzzick
    ✭✭✭✭
    Destruent wrote: »
    Muzzick wrote: »
    Destruent wrote: »
    jypcy wrote: »
    Destruent wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »

    it's really convenient to respond to the first part and not the second. there is a reason ranged magicka dd's don't use sweep, but it isn't because it does less damage than ele weapon, it's because it's melee and has a very high cost.

    Confirmed, you haven't looked at vSS at all. on All fights you can go meelee-DPS 24/7 and when using sweeps sustain is even better than it is with ele-weapon. so people don't use sweeps bc doesn't provide any dps increase over a ranged-spammable...
    jypcy wrote: »
    Please excuse the shamefully low numbers, I never bother to practice parsing and was too lazy to dig out actual parse gear.

    Full ele weapon parse with direct damage cp and inferno frontbar:

    j6n16mas7oqz.png

    88 uses of the skill totaled 2.02m damage and 6.9k dps


    Full sweeps parse with dot cp and lightning frontbar:

    lng1m0ctch2o.png

    ~63 uses of the skill totaled 2.57m damage and 8.8 dps.


    Even with the slightly higher crit ratio on sweeps, I think we can agree that the damage per cast considerably exceeds that of ele weapon.

    Also note that the burning light procs on the sweeps parse were nearly double that of the ele weapon parse, which I don't think we can attribute entirely to the random proc chance.

    I did miss a fair amount of light attacks on the sweeps parse, but CMX indicated that most of those missed were on my backbar and thus not a factor of sweeps weaving. I had four fewer fb light attacks on the sweeps parse compared to the ele weapon parse.

    Usability against moving targets? Viability in a full build? Still fair questions imo, and more so where consideration of "actual combat anything" comes into play. But if we're talking pure damage of spammables, yes, sweeps is higher (I believe highest, but I'm not dedicated/invested enough to bother replicating builds and testing across characters to try to prove this).

    This post shows the problem perfectly...even though sweeps does a more DPS itself, it doesn't increase your overall dps (even on a stationary dummy)...

    Agreed on the second part, which I think is due in large part to it benefitting from aoe and dot damage modifiers which is weird for your spammable to do and also cuts away from other very important sources of magplar dps (namely light attacks and jbeam). Though take the overall numbers with a grain of salt. As noted, I’m not practiced in this sort of thing and a better optimized sweeps build might result in marginally higher damage.

    Believe me, i tried for nearly 2 months to make sweeps work in sunspire (where it is easy to play meelee...), it just doesn't work. i always ended up doing more/the same dps with elemental weapon while getting more flexibility in terms of positioning.
    problem is, you can't really optimize for sweeps without loosing out on dps on other skills...
    changing sweeps to a single-target skill with splash-damage (like force pulse) would be a nice change imo. getting rid of cast-times would be another nice addition aswell. i really enjoy playing with instant-skills, makes the rotation a lot smoother and easier to play especially in fights where you have to react/reposition/block etc.

    Agree here. It really doesn't make a significant difference in a rotation. And even simply spamming the skill may show a marginal increase vs other spammables, not a substantial 40% as previously claimed in this thread (and still not proven in a straight spam parse). In addition, the spamming was just to show that it doesn't do as much damage as it's tooltip may suggest and not relevant in actual playing the game, very few people spam one skill over and over. But even if it had slightly increased damage, it's balanced out with the drawbacks of the skill. It's balanced well against elemental weapon and a good option for those who don't want to do the psijic grind.

    only if you fight the dummy or bosses where you can be meelee all the time, otherwise i'd suggest force pulse which does the same but from range and has an instant cast with destro-passives and better scaling with fire destro ^^

    Absolutely, I use sweeps mainly for solo content because of the heals
  • Jabbs_Giggity
    Jabbs_Giggity
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Muzzick wrote: »
    Destruent wrote: »
    jypcy wrote: »
    Destruent wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »

    it's really convenient to respond to the first part and not the second. there is a reason ranged magicka dd's don't use sweep, but it isn't because it does less damage than ele weapon, it's because it's melee and has a very high cost.

    Confirmed, you haven't looked at vSS at all. on All fights you can go meelee-DPS 24/7 and when using sweeps sustain is even better than it is with ele-weapon. so people don't use sweeps bc doesn't provide any dps increase over a ranged-spammable...
    jypcy wrote: »
    Please excuse the shamefully low numbers, I never bother to practice parsing and was too lazy to dig out actual parse gear.

    Full ele weapon parse with direct damage cp and inferno frontbar:

    j6n16mas7oqz.png

    88 uses of the skill totaled 2.02m damage and 6.9k dps


    Full sweeps parse with dot cp and lightning frontbar:

    lng1m0ctch2o.png

    ~63 uses of the skill totaled 2.57m damage and 8.8 dps.


    Even with the slightly higher crit ratio on sweeps, I think we can agree that the damage per cast considerably exceeds that of ele weapon.

    Also note that the burning light procs on the sweeps parse were nearly double that of the ele weapon parse, which I don't think we can attribute entirely to the random proc chance.

    I did miss a fair amount of light attacks on the sweeps parse, but CMX indicated that most of those missed were on my backbar and thus not a factor of sweeps weaving. I had four fewer fb light attacks on the sweeps parse compared to the ele weapon parse.

    Usability against moving targets? Viability in a full build? Still fair questions imo, and more so where consideration of "actual combat anything" comes into play. But if we're talking pure damage of spammables, yes, sweeps is higher (I believe highest, but I'm not dedicated/invested enough to bother replicating builds and testing across characters to try to prove this).

    This post shows the problem perfectly...even though sweeps does a more DPS itself, it doesn't increase your overall dps (even on a stationary dummy)...

    Agreed on the second part, which I think is due in large part to it benefitting from aoe and dot damage modifiers which is weird for your spammable to do and also cuts away from other very important sources of magplar dps (namely light attacks and jbeam). Though take the overall numbers with a grain of salt. As noted, I’m not practiced in this sort of thing and a better optimized sweeps build might result in marginally higher damage.

    Believe me, i tried for nearly 2 months to make sweeps work in sunspire (where it is easy to play meelee...), it just doesn't work. i always ended up doing more/the same dps with elemental weapon while getting more flexibility in terms of positioning.
    problem is, you can't really optimize for sweeps without loosing out on dps on other skills...
    changing sweeps to a single-target skill with splash-damage (like force pulse) would be a nice change imo. getting rid of cast-times would be another nice addition aswell. i really enjoy playing with instant-skills, makes the rotation a lot smoother and easier to play especially in fights where you have to react/reposition/block etc.

    Agree here. It really doesn't make a significant difference in a rotation. And even simply spamming the skill may show a marginal increase vs other spammables, not a substantial 40% as previously claimed in this thread (and still not proven in a straight spam parse). In addition, the spamming was just to show that it doesn't do as much damage as it's tooltip may suggest and not relevant in actual playing the game, very few people spam one skill over and over. But even if it had slightly increased damage, it's balanced out with the drawbacks of the skill. It's balanced well against elemental weapon and a good option for those who don't want to do the psijic grind.

    So, PVP'er here...what is your suggestion for a replacement spammable on the Stamina side? It's my understanding that Stamina Templars are not really wanted for end-game raids, etc. Is there an alternative spammable to Biting Jabs that's on par? Would you still go with Psijic?
    Xbox One X - NA
    CP 910+


    ~Mains~
    Jabs Giggity - Stamplar
    Fap to my Sweeps - Magplar
    George W AmBush - Stamblade

    ~Alts~
    I Got Electrolytes - Magsorc
    Rhaegeon - MagDK
    Covetous Shen - Magblade - Master Crafter
    Cream Pie Jewelz - Stamden
  • ecru
    ecru
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Destruent wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »

    it's really convenient to respond to the first part and not the second. there is a reason ranged magicka dd's don't use sweep, but it isn't because it does less damage than ele weapon, it's because it's melee and has a very high cost.

    Confirmed, you haven't looked at vSS at all. on All fights you can go meelee-DPS 24/7 and when using sweeps sustain is even better than it is with ele-weapon. so people don't use sweeps bc doesn't provide any dps increase over a ranged-spammable...
    jypcy wrote: »
    Please excuse the shamefully low numbers, I never bother to practice parsing and was too lazy to dig out actual parse gear.

    Full ele weapon parse with direct damage cp and inferno frontbar:

    j6n16mas7oqz.png

    88 uses of the skill totaled 2.02m damage and 6.9k dps


    Full sweeps parse with dot cp and lightning frontbar:

    lng1m0ctch2o.png

    ~63 uses of the skill totaled 2.57m damage and 8.8 dps


    Even with the slightly higher crit ratio on sweeps, I think we can agree that the damage per cast considerably exceeds that of ele weapon.

    Also note that the burning light procs on the sweeps parse were nearly double that of the ele weapon parse, which I don't think we can attribute entirely to the random proc chance.

    I did miss a fair amount of light attacks on the sweeps parse, but CMX indicated that most of those missed were on my backbar and thus not a factor of sweeps weaving. I had four fewer fb light attacks on the sweeps parse compared to the ele weapon parse.

    Usability against moving targets? Viability in a full build? Still fair questions imo, and more so where consideration of "actual combat anything" comes into play. But if we're talking pure damage of spammables, yes, sweeps is higher (I believe highest, but I'm not dedicated/invested enough to bother replicating builds and testing across characters to try to prove this).

    This post shows the problem perfectly...even though sweeps does a more DPS itself, it doesn't increase your overall dps (even on a stationary dummy)...

    cleared vSS HM months ago. you can't have 100% melee uptime on everything all the time, as nice as that'd be.
    Gryphon Heart
    Godslayer
    Dawnbringer
  • Destruent
    Destruent
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    ecru wrote: »
    Destruent wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »

    it's really convenient to respond to the first part and not the second. there is a reason ranged magicka dd's don't use sweep, but it isn't because it does less damage than ele weapon, it's because it's melee and has a very high cost.

    Confirmed, you haven't looked at vSS at all. on All fights you can go meelee-DPS 24/7 and when using sweeps sustain is even better than it is with ele-weapon. so people don't use sweeps bc doesn't provide any dps increase over a ranged-spammable...
    jypcy wrote: »
    Please excuse the shamefully low numbers, I never bother to practice parsing and was too lazy to dig out actual parse gear.

    Full ele weapon parse with direct damage cp and inferno frontbar:

    j6n16mas7oqz.png

    88 uses of the skill totaled 2.02m damage and 6.9k dps


    Full sweeps parse with dot cp and lightning frontbar:

    lng1m0ctch2o.png

    ~63 uses of the skill totaled 2.57m damage and 8.8 dps


    Even with the slightly higher crit ratio on sweeps, I think we can agree that the damage per cast considerably exceeds that of ele weapon.

    Also note that the burning light procs on the sweeps parse were nearly double that of the ele weapon parse, which I don't think we can attribute entirely to the random proc chance.

    I did miss a fair amount of light attacks on the sweeps parse, but CMX indicated that most of those missed were on my backbar and thus not a factor of sweeps weaving. I had four fewer fb light attacks on the sweeps parse compared to the ele weapon parse.

    Usability against moving targets? Viability in a full build? Still fair questions imo, and more so where consideration of "actual combat anything" comes into play. But if we're talking pure damage of spammables, yes, sweeps is higher (I believe highest, but I'm not dedicated/invested enough to bother replicating builds and testing across characters to try to prove this).

    This post shows the problem perfectly...even though sweeps does a more DPS itself, it doesn't increase your overall dps (even on a stationary dummy)...

    cleared vSS HM months ago. you can't have 100% melee uptime on everything all the time, as nice as that'd be.

    it's still one of the most meelee-friendly trials...so where to use sweeps if not in sunspire?
    Noobplar
  • jypcy
    jypcy
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    Destruent wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »
    Destruent wrote: »
    ecru wrote: »

    it's really convenient to respond to the first part and not the second. there is a reason ranged magicka dd's don't use sweep, but it isn't because it does less damage than ele weapon, it's because it's melee and has a very high cost.

    Confirmed, you haven't looked at vSS at all. on All fights you can go meelee-DPS 24/7 and when using sweeps sustain is even better than it is with ele-weapon. so people don't use sweeps bc doesn't provide any dps increase over a ranged-spammable...
    jypcy wrote: »
    Please excuse the shamefully low numbers, I never bother to practice parsing and was too lazy to dig out actual parse gear.

    Full ele weapon parse with direct damage cp and inferno frontbar:

    j6n16mas7oqz.png

    88 uses of the skill totaled 2.02m damage and 6.9k dps


    Full sweeps parse with dot cp and lightning frontbar:

    lng1m0ctch2o.png

    ~63 uses of the skill totaled 2.57m damage and 8.8 dps


    Even with the slightly higher crit ratio on sweeps, I think we can agree that the damage per cast considerably exceeds that of ele weapon.

    Also note that the burning light procs on the sweeps parse were nearly double that of the ele weapon parse, which I don't think we can attribute entirely to the random proc chance.

    I did miss a fair amount of light attacks on the sweeps parse, but CMX indicated that most of those missed were on my backbar and thus not a factor of sweeps weaving. I had four fewer fb light attacks on the sweeps parse compared to the ele weapon parse.

    Usability against moving targets? Viability in a full build? Still fair questions imo, and more so where consideration of "actual combat anything" comes into play. But if we're talking pure damage of spammables, yes, sweeps is higher (I believe highest, but I'm not dedicated/invested enough to bother replicating builds and testing across characters to try to prove this).

    This post shows the problem perfectly...even though sweeps does a more DPS itself, it doesn't increase your overall dps (even on a stationary dummy)...

    cleared vSS HM months ago. you can't have 100% melee uptime on everything all the time, as nice as that'd be.

    it's still one of the most meelee-friendly trials...so where to use sweeps if not in sunspire?

    Using it in vbrp is great. I’m guessing the same could be said of vdsa although I haven’t been there in months. For me, anyway, using it as a spammable has also negated the need for any shields/heals in vma (although afaik the very best magplar runners are using fp w/ asylum as their main spammable with sweeps as only an emergency heal).

    So really in content where you don’t have as much group support is where it most shines imo. When you don’t have to worry as much about yourself, a skill that synergizes better with your overall build could very well perform better in terms of pushing damage. Personally, I’m okay with this balance given that it still has very respectable damage output on top of the survivability it adds, but I know some people like to feel class identity by loading their bars with class skills and sweeps might not make the cut for that.

    I also appreciate that targeting can be difficult in mobile pvp combat, and unfortunately the reversion to its earlier behavior in the coming patch sounds like a setback in the skill’s usability for most players.
  • UppGRAYxDD
    UppGRAYxDD
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    UppGRAYxDD wrote: »
    So are Jabs and Sweeps gonna proc major expedition on enemies running Elude(shuffle morph)? If so, then ZoS needs to add the 70% snare to the first jab/sweep just so we can land maybe more then two.

    Edited to list the what I meant to say lol...

    Jabs are a great PvP/PvE ability, but specifically in PvP they have issues. Mainly with connecting the ability on targets in high latency instances. Now most, in not all medium armor users will be running elude which will make connecting the ability even worse plus ZoS is reverting the directional targeting to a previous version which hits even less. But hey, maybe ZoS will figure it out...maybe
    Edited by UppGRAYxDD on August 2, 2019 3:51PM
    "Stendarr's mercy be upon you, for the vigil has none to spare."
  • Nordic__Knights
    Nordic__Knights
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    Delparis wrote: »
    Sweeps are just noobs 1st spammable skill when playing under level 50.

    Only noobs use them for high cp, ì agree that this skill is a waste of slot as there many better weapon and guild spammables.

    Nerf or delete sweeps it doesn't matter anymore as this skill is only useful against coward nightblade when they stealth

    I've never ran into a Templar in above 50 CP PVP are played with a Templar in PVE that didn't use their sweeps so you just say that it's a noob ability it's just your somebody who's promoting for it to be bufft because its your best spammable stop looking at yourself and think of others that's what these places are for
    Edited by Nordic__Knights on August 3, 2019 6:59PM
  • Abyssmol
    Abyssmol
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    I would take the spammable Dizzying Swing 14 to 15K tool tip with a stun for a magicka templar than the crappy sweeps any time
  • Jabbs_Giggity
    Jabbs_Giggity
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    Delparis wrote: »
    Sweeps are just noobs 1st spammable skill when playing under level 50.

    Only noobs use them for high cp, ì agree that this skill is a waste of slot as there many better weapon and guild spammables.

    Nerf or delete sweeps it doesn't matter anymore as this skill is only useful against coward nightblade when they stealth

    You just love to troll anything that has you triggered

    Xbox One X - NA
    CP 910+


    ~Mains~
    Jabs Giggity - Stamplar
    Fap to my Sweeps - Magplar
    George W AmBush - Stamblade

    ~Alts~
    I Got Electrolytes - Magsorc
    Rhaegeon - MagDK
    Covetous Shen - Magblade - Master Crafter
    Cream Pie Jewelz - Stamden
  • No_Division
    No_Division
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    Most Templars are going fire staff force pulse next patch. 3k each hit plus another 10k burst that isn't reduced by Evasion. 19k that you can do while dodging lol. ZoS doesn't play their game
  • Destruent
    Destruent
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    Most Templars are going fire staff force pulse next patch. 3k each hit plus another 10k burst that isn't reduced by Evasion. 19k that you can do while dodging lol. ZoS doesn't play their game

    yep...most likely either no spammable or force-pulse....even less reason for sweeps....
    Noobplar
  • Sanguinor2
    Sanguinor2
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    Most Templars are going fire staff force pulse next patch. 3k each hit plus another 10k burst that isn't reduced by Evasion. 19k that you can do while dodging lol. ZoS doesn't play their game

    Yeah was thinking About perfected asylum destro with force pulse....
    Politeness is respecting others.
    Courage is doing what is fair.
    Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
    Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
    Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
    Honor is keeping ones word.
  • Nirnroot420
    Nirnroot420
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    Most Templars are going fire staff force pulse next patch. 3k each hit plus another 10k burst that isn't reduced by Evasion. 19k that you can do while dodging lol. ZoS doesn't play their game

    For PvP? If they're hardset on destroying Sweeps with the camera change, sure, we won't really have a choice then. But, if they get a brief moment of lucidity and keep the fixes they put into its targeting for Murkmire, I cant see how force pulse would outperform sweeps in pvp without the burning light proc and other Aedric Spear passives. Throwing down Blazing Spear is fine but just isn't the same, especially in more mobile fights.

    Besides, Force Pulse feels worse. I switch to it whenever cyrodiil gets laggy and sweeps become unreliable, but I just *feel* like half a templar.
  • Qbiken
    Qbiken
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    Is this un-ironically a thread about jabs being too strong?

    ohh my.......
    Immortal Redeemer - Gryphon Heart - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer - The Unchained
    And apparently still not a PvE player


    Characters:
    EU
    DC - Octius Ciel - Magicka Sorcerer - Breton
    DC - Evelina Septim - Magicka Templar - Breton
    EP - Josephine Tharn - Magicka Templar - Breton
    DC - Zireael the White Flame - Stamina Sorcerer - Bosmer
    EP - Qbi-One-Kenobi -Stamina DK - Argonian
    AD - Anconeus - Magicka Nightblade - High Elf
    EP - Cirilla Élen Riannon - Magica Dragonknight - Dark Elf
    AD - Fifty Shades of Cloak - Stamina Nightblade - Imperial
    AD - Alinare Larentius - StaminaTemplar - Redguard
    DC - The Alt-Knight - Stamina Dragonknight - Nord
    DC - Féreldir - Magicka Warden - Argonian
    AD - Kuvirá - Stamina Sorcerer - Redguard
    EP - 1vX Material - Stamina Warden - Orc
    EP - Fenrir the Windwalker - Stamina Sorcerer - Imperial
    EP - Q_Q Mancer Stamina Necromancer - Imperial

    NA
    EP - Sister Q - Stamina Sorcerer - Nord
    EP - Queue but the ueue is silent - Nightblade - Dark Elf

  • No_Division
    No_Division
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    Most Templars are going fire staff force pulse next patch. 3k each hit plus another 10k burst that isn't reduced by Evasion. 19k that you can do while dodging lol. ZoS doesn't play their game

    For PvP? If they're hardset on destroying Sweeps with the camera change, sure, we won't really have a choice then. But, if they get a brief moment of lucidity and keep the fixes they put into its targeting for Murkmire, I cant see how force pulse would outperform sweeps in pvp without the burning light proc and other Aedric Spear passives. Throwing down Blazing Spear is fine but just isn't the same, especially in more mobile fights.

    Besides, Force Pulse feels worse. I switch to it whenever cyrodiil gets laggy and sweeps become unreliable, but I just *feel* like half a templar.

    Some of the best Templars felt jabs was half assed and deserved redesign. Watching old Templar videos it was clear intent is this weird hybrid of range/melee and that's where the Templar feels best. Stack in either, and Templar feels gimped because you'll purposely deny yourself that flexibility. It's just a shame the rest of the kit doesn't embrace it or is being designed with some weird functionality in mind lol.
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