Critical Surge

Kronuxx

So I'll get right into it. Currently as of PTS patch 5.1.0 ZOS implemented resource agnostic healing skills to scale off of highest crit chance stat

wrote:

Resource agnostic sources of Healing will now use your highest Critical Strike chance, rather than defaulting to your Spell Critical only. Resource agnostic refers to abilities that utilize only your Max Health to scale, or are based off flat values. Below is a list of all affected abilities:

but unfortunately Critical Surge is not in that list despite it being a skill based off of flat value. Rather it's chance to critically strike is based of off spell critical. Furthermore ZOS also implemented stamina skills that provide healing to scale in it's critical strike damage with the Precise Strikes CP passive.

wrote:

The abilities listed below now properly use Precise Strikes to scale rather than Elfborn, since they are Stamina abilities.

Now, I understand that Critical Surge is a Magicka costing ability but it is inherently a stamina ability in its application as it provides Major Brutality as a buff followed by a flat value heal. Again, following in line with consistency this ability's critical heal strength should scale with Precise Strikes and not the Elfborn CP.

Please throw this bone for the Stamina Sorcerers ZOS. You really don't give them much. @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

MincVinyl

What is funny is i'm pretty sure i've made a thread about all of this every pts, even this one.

it also is something to bring up that when you DD you get minor prophecy instead of minor savagery, which now with this change won't be useful in anyway to you

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

the reason that crit surge is not on that list is because it does what you are asking for already, the heal crits with your weapon crit rate and is amped by precise strikes and not elfborn already.

MincVinyl

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO did you test that on pts, because on live crit surge crits only change off elfborn

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

MincVinyl wrote: »

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO did you test that on pts, because on live crit surge crits only change off elfborn

have you tested? because when i did, it was precise strikes, like it ought to be.

MincVinyl

I'm going to check on pts now

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

MincVinyl wrote: »

I'm going to check on pts now

My bad, precise strike does not increase the heal but it does crit at the the rate of your weapon damage. On live and on the pts.

MincVinyl

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

On PTS:

0 elfborn 0 precise strikes......crit surge crit = 4959

0 elfborn 50 precise strikes.....crit surge crit = 4959

50 elfborn 0 precise strikes.....crit surge crit = 5554

50 elfborn 50 precise strikes.....crit surge crit = 5554

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Yup. Just got the same result. So yeah, make precise strikes amp it. Though I was right that it crits with weapon crit.

MincVinyl

I can test DD if you want, but it should be the same. What this shows though is that stamsorc's are missing out on anywhere from around 500-700 heals per half second because of built in flaws to the class.

MincVinyl

well the cp goes based on what resource you used, not what crit was used. seems like a simple fix they could make, i'm sure stamsorc isn't the only class with this problem

Kronuxx

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

the reason that crit surge is not on that list is because it does what you are asking for already, the heal crits with your weapon crit rate and is amped by precise strikes and not elfborn already.

Incorrect. Test again, both on Live and PTS the critical strike strength of Crit Surge heals is based off of Elfborn.

Edit: Just saw @MincVinyl confirmed my statement. And it's crit chance appears to be based off of spell critical, not weapon critical but I will confirm this with Combat Metrics to make sure.

Kronuxx

MincVinyl wrote: »

I can test DD if you want, but it should be the same. What this shows though is that stamsorc's are missing out on anywhere from around 500-700 heals per half second because of built in flaws to the class.

I tested Dark Deal and it now properly scales with Precise Strikes and Weapon Critical, as of patch 5.1.1. Please make Critical Surge do the same ZOS. Be consistent if nothing else. @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

MincVinyl

@Kronuxx
On PTS:

0 elfborn 0 precise strikes......crit surge crit = 4959

0 elfborn 50 precise strikes.....crit surge crit = 4959 <doesn't use Precise strikes

50 elfborn 0 precise strikes.....crit surge crit = 5554

50 elfborn 50 precise strikes.....crit surge crit = 5554

---

0 elfborn 0 precise strikes......DD crit = 12,498

0 elfborn 25 precise strikes.....DD crit = 12,498 <doesn't use Precise strikes

25 elfborn 0 precise strikes.....DD crit = 13,331

25 elfborn 25 precise strikes.....DD = 13,331

---

after a 4 min fight:
my build has 10% spell crit 33.9% weapon crit

CritSurge crit 37/108 times = 34% crit

DD crit 8/30 times = 27% crit

---

This leads us to believe that:
1. sadly precise strikes doesn't matter(stamsorc looses out on possible ~1200 hps)
2. happily both Crit surge and DD use weapon crit now

---

also in testing it is interesting to note that heals found in the cp skill lines like critical leech seem to use spell crit and elfborn aswell. So might be interesting to look into those, my assumption is that none of these are going to follow any sort of rules or patterns that make any logical sense. Hope zos fixes these along with how they fixed Crit surge and DD to an extent.

TBois

MincVinyl wrote: »

@Kronuxx
On PTS:

0 elfborn 0 precise strikes......crit surge crit = 4959

0 elfborn 50 precise strikes.....crit surge crit = 4959 <doesn't use Precise strikes

50 elfborn 0 precise strikes.....crit surge crit = 5554

50 elfborn 50 precise strikes.....crit surge crit = 5554

---

0 elfborn 0 precise strikes......DD crit = 12,498

0 elfborn 25 precise strikes.....DD crit = 12,498 <doesn't use Precise strikes

25 elfborn 0 precise strikes.....DD crit = 13,331

25 elfborn 25 precise strikes.....DD = 13,331

---

after a 4 min fight:
my build has 10% spell crit 33.9% weapon crit

CritSurge crit 37/108 times = 34% crit

DD crit 8/30 times = 27% crit

---

This leads us to believe that:
1. sadly precise strikes doesn't matter(stamsorc looses out on possible ~1200 hps)
2. happily both Crit surge and DD use weapon crit now

---

also in testing it is interesting to note that heals found in the cp skill lines like critical leech seem to use spell crit and elfborn aswell. So might be interesting to look into those, my assumption is that none of these are going to follow any sort of rules or patterns that make any logical sense. Hope zos fixes these along with how they fixed Crit surge and DD to an extent.

The audit continues...

MincVinyl

@TBois yeah if you ever do any testing into cp you would think that they hired a different person to code each individual passive.

for instance: other than the healing i just mentioned last patch there was the molten whip bug where single use stacks were not going away

this affected things like:
molten whip(dk op)
might of the mages guild (allowed perfect overload empowers for full duration)
Opportunist cp (after interupting an enemy all phys damage abilities were doing 15% more damage)
Unchained cp (after using break free all stam abilities within the next 5 seconds cost 80% less stam)
Vengeance cp (after blocking 3 spells all mag abilities had guaranteed crits for 5 seconds)

but then some of the similar buffs didn't function this way like:
Foresight cp
Retaliation cp
Sorc Persistence

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Kronuxx wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

the reason that crit surge is not on that list is because it does what you are asking for already, the heal crits with your weapon crit rate and is amped by precise strikes and not elfborn already.

Incorrect. Test again, both on Live and PTS the critical strike strength of Crit Surge heals is based off of Elfborn.

Edit: Just saw @MincVinyl confirmed my statement. And it's crit chance appears to be based off of spell critical, not weapon critical but I will confirm this with Combat Metrics to make sure.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Yup. Just got the same result. So yeah, make precise strikes amp it. Though I was right that it crits with weapon crit.

Derra

Kronuxx wrote: »

MincVinyl wrote: »

I can test DD if you want, but it should be the same. What this shows though is that stamsorc's are missing out on anywhere from around 500-700 heals per half second because of built in flaws to the class.

I tested Dark Deal and it now properly scales with Precise Strikes and Weapon Critical, as of patch 5.1.1. Please make Critical Surge do the same ZOS. Be consistent if nothing else. @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Since when does dark deal crit? Is this a bug?

On live both morphs can not critically heal.

TBois

MincVinyl wrote: »

@TBois yeah if you ever do any testing into cp you would think that they hired a different person to code each individual passive.

for instance: other than the healing i just mentioned last patch there was the molten whip bug where single use stacks were not going away

this affected things like:
molten whip(dk op)
might of the mages guild (allowed perfect overload empowers for full duration)
Opportunist cp (after interupting an enemy all phys damage abilities were doing 15% more damage)
Unchained cp (after using break free all stam abilities within the next 5 seconds cost 80% less stam)
Vengeance cp (after blocking 3 spells all mag abilities had guaranteed crits for 5 seconds)

but then some of the similar buffs didn't function this way like:
Foresight cp
Retaliation cp
Sorc Persistence

Yea I'm not very surprised though since they have addressed changes to combat in a very piecemeal way, after they got rid of the original employees who had seemed to be more experienced, until this year.

MincVinyl

@Derra they just made this change to allow non scaling healing abilities crit, nice change since now what you build for matters. For insance if you build a stam sorc in medium armor with a set like leviathan you will be rewarded with alot of crit heals. All around these changes will make builds more unique in a way, stats other than damage will actually matter on something like a stamsorc which doesn't really get anything crazy.

Derra

MincVinyl wrote: »

@Derra they just made this change to allow non scaling healing abilities crit, nice change since now what you build for matters. For insance if you build a stam sorc in medium armor with a set like leviathan you will be rewarded with alot of crit heals. All around these changes will make builds more unique in a way, stats other than damage will actually matter on something like a stamsorc which doesn't really get anything crazy.

Oh wow - that´s actually a pretty decent buff for stamsorc healing

Surge always critically healed though - which is kinda strange in retrospect then.

MincVinyl

Yeah it is a nice buff, not much really changes with this though since alot of the times you had similar spell and weapon crit in heavy armor setups due to DD only granting minor prophecy and you would get 9% spell crit from 32 cp in blessed. So crit surge doesn't really have a better uptime critwise unless you build a medium armor/crit build.

DD gaining a crit is nice though, it may just keep you alive when you are out of everything and hoping that DD keeps you afloat until you can vigor.

akray21

Kronuxx wrote: »

So I'll get right into it. Currently as of PTS patch 5.1.0 ZOS implemented resource agnostic healing skills to scale off of highest crit chance stat

wrote:

Resource agnostic sources of Healing will now use your highest Critical Strike chance, rather than defaulting to your Spell Critical only. Resource agnostic refers to abilities that utilize only your Max Health to scale, or are based off flat values. Below is a list of all affected abilities:

but unfortunately Critical Surge is not in that list despite it being a skill based off of flat value. Rather it's chance to critically strike is based of off spell critical. Furthermore ZOS also implemented stamina skills that provide healing to scale in it's critical strike damage with the Precise Strikes CP passive.

wrote:

The abilities listed below now properly use Precise Strikes to scale rather than Elfborn, since they are Stamina abilities.

Now, I understand that Critical Surge is a Magicka costing ability but it is inherently a stamina ability in its application as it provides Major Brutality as a buff followed by a flat value heal. Again, following in line with consistency this ability's critical heal strength should scale with Precise Strikes and not the Elfborn CP.

Please throw this bone for the Stamina Sorcerers ZOS. You really don't give them much. @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Healing is the main issue with my stamsorc. The only way to get good "heals" is through health recovery.

Kronuxx

MincVinyl wrote: »

@Kronuxx
On PTS:

0 elfborn 0 precise strikes......crit surge crit = 4959

0 elfborn 50 precise strikes.....crit surge crit = 4959 <doesn't use Precise strikes

50 elfborn 0 precise strikes.....crit surge crit = 5554

50 elfborn 50 precise strikes.....crit surge crit = 5554

---

0 elfborn 0 precise strikes......DD crit = 12,498

0 elfborn 25 precise strikes.....DD crit = 12,498 <doesn't use Precise strikes

25 elfborn 0 precise strikes.....DD crit = 13,331

25 elfborn 25 precise strikes.....DD = 13,331

---

after a 4 min fight:
my build has 10% spell crit 33.9% weapon crit

CritSurge crit 37/108 times = 34% crit

DD crit 8/30 times = 27% crit

---

This leads us to believe that:
1. sadly precise strikes doesn't matter(stamsorc looses out on possible ~1200 hps)
2. happily both Crit surge and DD use weapon crit now

---

also in testing it is interesting to note that heals found in the cp skill lines like critical leech seem to use spell crit and elfborn aswell. So might be interesting to look into those, my assumption is that none of these are going to follow any sort of rules or patterns that make any logical sense. Hope zos fixes these along with how they fixed Crit surge and DD to an extent.

So I tested again to confirm your findings, and they are indeed correct. So I decided to reread the PTS patch notes that mentioned the base skill Dark Exchange being changed to be affected by Precise Strikes and I finally realized something. I can't believe what an oversight this was, although missed by the community, but by ZOS the game developers.

@ZOS_GinaBruno wrote:

The abilities listed below now properly use Precise Strikes to scale rather than Elfborn, since they are Stamina abilities.
Spoiler
Leeching Strikes
Killer’s Blade
Dark Exchange and Dark Conversion
Ruinous Scythe
Absorb Missile
Draining Shot

Now read that carefully. Dark Exchange and Dark Conversion are what are now affected by Precise Strikes, when previoiusly affected by Elfborn. In fact, the old previous placement of having Elfborn affect Dark Exchange and Dark Conversion I feel would be the better option. Stamina Sorcerers primarily use Dark Deal, which unfortunately is still being affected by Elfborn and not Precise Strikes. I mean, I just don't know what to say. The only reason I missed this initially during my first read through of PTS patch notes is because I assumed ZOS knew better and understood the difference between the application of two morphs. One clearly used by Magicka Sorcerers (Dark Conversion), and the other used by Stamina Sorcerers (Dark Deal), most of the time. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler Can we get this fixed please, and while you're at it, please have Critical Surge be affected by Precise Strikes.

ProzTh3Almighty

Dark deal cost mag so Zos thinks it should be a magicka ability while magsorc out here getting their precise strikes dark conversions buffed lol its consistent i guess. Just wrong tho

Derra

ProzTh3Almighty wrote: »

Dark deal cost mag so Zos thinks it should be a magicka ability while magsorc out here getting their precise strikes dark conversions buffed lol its consistent i guess. Just wrong tho

Still a buff considering they didn´t crit at all previously tho

jaysins

This was brought up to one of the combat developers several months ago as they were unaware of this and basically the response was "it's going to stay how it is" as they're reworking CP. Seems like such a simple fix and would be a meaningful one when it comes to a stamsorcs ability to heal themselves.

TBois

Yay! Our position as the redheaded stepchild is once again reinforced.

jaysins

TBois wrote: »

Yay! Our position as the redheaded stepchild is once again reinforced.

If they want to reinforce it anymore it's going to require either neon lights or hiring someone to write it in the sky.

TBois

It's a bummer this wasn't addressed or mentioned as an issue to be addressed in the future in this most recent pts patch notes.

MincVinyl

@Kronuxx, @TBois

What is even more annoying is I have to test CritSurge/DarkDeal and make a post every single pts.

Atleast I gave up on overload testing, that *** flip flops every patch.... does it use spell crit, weapon crit, does it use both light attack cp, now it only uses one if you slot this weapon. What about with this set, oh well apparently that uses weapon crit now. Random *** like this will never be solved. For instance right now overload fails to proc imbue weapon on pts for whatever reason, even though it is considered a light attack.(no patch notes on that tho)

One day Overload will just give extra shock damage to your weapon light attacks if you are using 2h/dw/s&b, with a clean fast animation hopefully.