Bosmer and Green Pact - voluntary or not?

Dusk_Coven

There are references to Bosmer who are "excused" from the Pact (e.g. Vinedusk Rangers), and those who said they didn't grow up with that tradition (some of the Hireling letters?), and those who didn't want any part of it (early Bosmer shapeshifters).

Are all these Bosmer kidding themselves and are gonna suffer in Ouze hell? Or are some actually allowed to not participate in the Green Pact? Is it specifically a Bosmer-homelands thing?

ArchMikem

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Is it specifically a Bosmer-homelands thing?

Yes.

The Pact specifically refers to the Valenwood, anywhere beyond those borders doesn't apply. It also doesn't apply to anyone living beyond those borders either, including other Bosmer. If a person of another Race went into the Valenwood and then violated the Green, it wouldn't matter cause the Pact doesn't apply to them. A Bosmer, maybe, but that's up to the judgement of the locals whether or not "outsider" Bosmer should be treated under the Pact.

In-game I remember coming across evidence that both proves the Green Pact is a real force that comes with actual consequences for violating the terms, as well as just being some traditionalist mumbo jumbo that everyone follows blindly for no real reason.

Dusk_Coven

ArchMikem wrote: »

If a person of another Race went into the Valenwood and then violated the Green, it wouldn't matter cause the Pact doesn't apply to them. A Bosmer, maybe, but that's up to the judgement of the locals whether or not "outsider" Bosmer should be treated under the Pact.

Maybe not any mystical consequences, but I'm pretty sure some hard core Bosmer enforce it against other race visitors.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Marilrin

But that's probably in the extreme.

Starlight_Knight

Before the Green Pact there was the Red Pact - Created by Molag Bal and it was to force the Bosmer into eating only fruits and vegetables, (in order to make the Bosmer week and frail) Y'ffre saw this and created the Green Pact for the Bosmer and said the forrest arround them would protect them.
But any Bosmer has a choice weather or not to follow the Green Pact.

Dusk_Coven

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

Before the Green Pact there was the Red Pact - Created by Molag Bal

Uh, I thought that was theatrical nonsense made up by the carnival, "for entertainment purposes".

Starlight_Knight

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

Before the Green Pact there was the Red Pact - Created by Molag Bal

Uh, I thought that was theatrical nonsense made up by the carnival, "for entertainment purposes".

Its real - it also had something to do with Molag Bal sacking that Bosmer settlement that you save in one of the quests.. Just googling it.. Gil-Var-Delle.

Dusk_Coven

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

Before the Green Pact there was the Red Pact - Created by Molag Bal

Uh, I thought that was theatrical nonsense made up by the carnival, "for entertainment purposes".

Its real - it also had something to do with Molag Bal sacking that Bosmer settlement that you save in one of the quests.. Just googling it.. Gil-Var-Delle.

Maybe. But that book in Vindare's tent made me suspect that Noryon mixed theatrics with local history to make an exciting story. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Noryon I haven't heard the ambient line they mention though.

Nefas

Definitely agree that Noryon dramatizes certain parts of the supposed history of the Red Pact between Molag Bal and the Bosmer particularly the part about the Silvenar beating Molag Bal back with the lute. There is no real evidence for the Silvenar having such skills at least from what we see in the Elder Scrolls Online. The Green Lady certainly seems more potent than her male counterpart so maybe one of the previous Green Ladies could have been involved.

The "The Devouring of Gil-Var-Delle" has this to say on the matter:

Many a historical fiction piece has attempted to dramatize what occurred there, but none of those stories can be confirmed, except to say that a catastrophic event struck the town. Perhaps the residents were killed, perhaps they fled. None were ever heard from again, but for all anyone knows, a large fire could have been the culprit. I can't imagine anything more catastrophic than that to a Wood Elf dwelling.

It certainly made the Tribunal wonder what exactly happened so we could assume that it's not really a fire and Almalexia continued to keep a close eye on it as we found out from the Ordinator she sent to investigate the site.

So we can arrive at definitely at least two conclusions:

Assuming the Red Pact occurred and Y'ffre stepped in then Molag Bal razed Gil-Var-Delle and was perhaps limited in his ability to destroy things any further due to multiple variables. The environment of Gil-Var-Delle also strongly suggests that the place at least has Daedric influence, attracting Molag Bal's cult including Mannimarco to make their base of operations there.

The Red Pact may or may not have occurred and the Green Pact was initiated but Gil-Var-Delle went through a terrible incident that grew legend, superstition and fear to the point that it attracted Daedric worshippers/made people stay away and start digging into myths for clues.

baltic1284

In all Honesty it actually depends on where you live in Valeenwood on how much or less the Green pact is enforced. Valeenwood isn't a single unified empire it is actually made up of different states that swear allegiance to the King of Valeenwood. The Green Pact is enforced differently but for the most near all Bosmer obey it.

Korah_Eaglecry

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

There are references to Bosmer who are "excused" from the Pact (e.g. Vinedusk Rangers), and those who said they didn't grow up with that tradition (some of the Hireling letters?), and those who didn't want any part of it (early Bosmer shapeshifters).

Are all these Bosmer kidding themselves and are gonna suffer in Ouze hell? Or are some actually allowed to not participate in the Green Pact? Is it specifically a Bosmer-homelands thing?

I personally believe that the impact of the Pact on Bosmer is entirely dependent on the faith of the individual, the faith of those around them and the area they are located.


So a Bosmer in a small village way out in the wilds of Malabal Tor will likely be more devout, be surrounded by those who are also devout and because its closer to nature be impacted by the Pact more. So when a Bosmer breaks the Pact in that circumstance, the consequences are more swift and immediate.

The farther removed from nature the Bosmer is, the less impact the Pact has on them. So a Bosmer living in Grahtwood is more likely get away with cutting corners and a Bosmer living in Skyrim may be able to completely subvert the Pact all together.

Danikat

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

If a person of another Race went into the Valenwood and then violated the Green, it wouldn't matter cause the Pact doesn't apply to them. A Bosmer, maybe, but that's up to the judgement of the locals whether or not "outsider" Bosmer should be treated under the Pact.

Maybe not any mystical consequences, but I'm pretty sure some hard core Bosmer enforce it against other race visitors.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Marilrin

But that's probably in the extreme.

The bosmer certainly care about outsiders damaging the Green. Whenever there's a war between Valenwood and Elseweyr (which is pretty much whenever they aren't preoccupied with a larger war and don't have the Dominion or Empire to force them to cooperate) the khajiit will send advanced squads of tree cutters specifically because they know it will make the bosmer furious and more likely to react out of anger rather than with a tactical response.

Dusk_Coven

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

So a Bosmer in a small village way out in the wilds of Malabal Tor will likely be more devout, be surrounded by those who are also devout and because its closer to nature be impacted by the Pact more. So when a Bosmer breaks the Pact in that circumstance, the consequences are more swift and immediate.

But this is more like "legal consequence". What about mystical consequence? Does Y'ffre care about how far you moved away from Valenwood? Are you still going to end up in that Ouze hell for violators because the existing Bosmer are descendents of the ones who accepted Y'ffre's deal way back when -- unless somehow not all of them are?

Korah_Eaglecry

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Korah_Eaglecry wrote: »

So a Bosmer in a small village way out in the wilds of Malabal Tor will likely be more devout, be surrounded by those who are also devout and because its closer to nature be impacted by the Pact more. So when a Bosmer breaks the Pact in that circumstance, the consequences are more swift and immediate.

But this is more like "legal consequence". What about mystical consequence? Does Y'ffre care about how far you moved away from Valenwood? Are you still going to end up in that Ouze hell for violators because the existing Bosmer are descendents of the ones who accepted Y'ffre's deal way back when -- unless somehow not all of them are?

Its not just legal consequence. Theres evidence that Y'ffre will punish those breaking the Pact within the boundaries of Valenwood while not touching those in far away lands.