Were the Dwemer Always an Extinct race in Elder Scrolls Games?

kylewwefan

I was asking my son about this and he showed me a picture of the one “Dwemer” from old Morrowind. It was some fat dark elf looking dude rocking Dwemer spider legs. Kind of reminded me of clockwork city type of folk, half man/ half machine. In that regard would Sotha Sil be close related to Dwemer? But then we got on to Dwarves. Were the Dwemer known as Dwarves? As the Dwarven Motifs in ESO are very Dwemer looking.

Totally Love the ELder Scrolls Lore, but I get so easily confused.

Royaji

The lore-brigade will be here in moment to quote UESP with all the dates and stuff.

But the most important thing is that TES never had "dwarves" as in "small people with beards". Dwemer were a race of elves. And yes, sometimes they are just referred to as dwarves.

Elsonso

Yes, always considered, by popular opinion, to be on the extinct side of the equation. The guy in TES 3 Morrowind is the only surviving one that anyone in the 3rd Era knows about.

Benzux

Dwemer and Dwarves are the same thing, as the name "Dwarf" is just a corruption of the actual name of the Elven Race, Dwemer (and yes, they are Elves, not short folk with beards).
The Dwemer are not so much "extinct" (like the Ayleids & Falmer/Snow Elves are, though some may still live in the untouched wilds of Tamriel), but rather... gone. We don't know what happened to them, or where they are. All we know is that when Kagrenac used his Three Tools on the Heart of Lorkhan (circa 1E 700, around ~2800 years before the events of ESO and ~3500 years before the events of Morrowind) in order to activate the Numidium, every single Dwemer on Nirn vanished instantaneously.
The last living Dwemer you can meet in TESIII: Morrowind, Yagrum Bagarn, survived the disappearance of his entire race by being in another Plane when it happened (presumably in one of the many Planes of Oblivion). Around his appearance in-game, he is millennia old, but is infected with the Corprus disease and is slowly dying (this is the reason for his bloated and diseased appearance, as well as the "half-machine" look he has).
As for Sotha Sil, he is not related to the Dwemer at all. He was a Chimer until the apotheosis of the Tribunal, when he became a Living God, and Azura cursed the Chimer race to become the Dunmer - the Dark Elves. Almalexia used her Godly powers to resist the curse and stay a Chimer, while Sotha Sil accepted the change and became a Dunmer. Sotha Sil is fascinated by the Dwemer and their work (but don't say that directly in front of him), and used this as a basis for his own work, the Clockwork City.

mague

Extinct is wrong. They vanished in one go.

kylewwefan

How in the world can you remember this stuff so vividly? It’s truly amazing!

It will be quite difficult to not think of dwarves as short bearded dudes with legendary strength

Benzux

kylewwefan wrote: »

How in the world can you remember this stuff so vividly? It’s truly amazing!

It will be quite difficult to not think of dwarves as short bearded dudes with legendary strength

I have quite the memory when it comes to TES Lore, but ask me what happened last week? I'll have no clue whatsoever.
I will say that I did "cheat" with the years a little, as I had to look them up on the Timeline of the TES universe, but I've always been bad with memorizing years and dates anyway.

Aigym_Hlervu

You might know the lore I'm speaking about.. But to those who are not aware - Dwemer have never been extinct. The Rourken Dwemer clan did not join those of their kin led by their King Dumalacath the Dwarf-Orc (or just Dumac the Dwarfking) in their Union with Chimer. Instead their leader threw the Volendrung created by the clan smiths (exactly that Malacath's Daedric artifact we're hunting for in Cyrodiil nowdays) towards the setting sun and the clan migrated to the place they found the Hammer at. Across Skyrim to the Alik'r Desert, Hammerfell. Volenfell at the time. They prospered and spread across the region. But Kagrenac used the Tools and all those who were connected to the Heart of Lorkhan vanished. Those of them who were not connected, but were present on Nirn (the Rourken clan) vanished also.. or.. they were morphed into some other species. After this they were pulled out from Volenfell by the invasion of yokudans, their culture changed and they began fighting for survival with bretons and other folks loosing battle after battle. They still remember their king Dumalacath or Dumac but now call him Malacath - their god-king, a corner of the House of Troubles, a "created" Daedra Prince. Today we call them orcs.

The same story with the tools repeated later on with us, Dunmer. After murdering Nerevar the Tribunes used the Tools thus becoming gods. Unlike the Dwemer story none of the Chimer folk except the Tribunes was connected to the Heart of Lorkhan. So they morphed just like the Rourken clan. Even the Ashlanders who betrayed no one and did not deserve to be changed by Azura (be it Azura to change them) like the House Dunmer transformed. Later on our culture rose up under the guidance of the Tribunes and we began fighting the enemies until the same Tribunes sold the country out to the Empire of Tiber Septim. None the less no one says that Chimer are extinct - 'cause they are not. Just the Changed ones, transformed into Dunmer.

Aliyavana

Benzux wrote: »

Dwemer and Dwarves are the same thing, as the name "Dwarf" is just a corruption of the actual name of the Elven Race, Dwemer (and yes, they are Elves, not short folk with beards).
The Dwemer are not so much "extinct" (like the Ayleids & Falmer/Snow Elves are, though some may still live in the untouched wilds of Tamriel), but rather... gone. We don't know what happened to them, or where they are. All we know is that when Kagrenac used his Three Tools on the Heart of Lorkhan (circa 1E 700, around ~2800 years before the events of ESO and ~3500 years before the events of Morrowind) in order to activate the Numidium, every single Dwemer on Nirn vanished instantaneously.
The last living Dwemer you can meet in TESIII: Morrowind, Yagrum Bagarn, survived the disappearance of his entire race by being in another Plane when it happened (presumably in one of the many Planes of Oblivion). Around his appearance in-game, he is millennia old, but is infected with the Corprus disease and is slowly dying (this is the reason for his bloated and diseased appearance, as well as the "half-machine" look he has).
As for Sotha Sil, he is not related to the Dwemer at all. He was a Chimer until the apotheosis of the Tribunal, when he became a Living God, and Azura cursed the Chimer race to become the Dunmer - the Dark Elves. Almalexia used her Godly powers to resist the curse and stay a Chimer, while Sotha Sil accepted the change and became a Dunmer. Sotha Sil is fascinated by the Dwemer and their work (but don't say that directly in front of him), and used this as a basis for his own work, the Clockwork City.

Sotha sil would not be offended by a statement refering to his love of dwemer tech, its his apostles that would.

kylewwefan

Wait a minute. The Dwemer that remained were transformed to orcs? You know there’s much controversy about the Orcs relation to Elves right. Like thread closing name calling malarkey. That is something truly fascinating. I got to let that sink in for awhile.

Elsonso

kylewwefan wrote: »

Wait a minute. The Dwemer that remained were transformed to orcs? You know there’s much controversy about the Orcs relation to Elves right. Like thread closing name calling malarkey. That is something truly fascinating. I got to let that sink in for awhile.

Probably not. Personally, I think the dwemer got a better offer making Transformers and just didn't renew their contract with Bethesda. Makes more sense.

UrbanMonk

kylewwefan wrote: »

Wait a minute. The Dwemer that remained were transformed to orcs? You know there’s much controversy about the Orcs relation to Elves right. Like thread closing name calling malarkey. That is something truly fascinating. I got to let that sink in for awhile.

That is in LOTR not ESO.

kylewwefan

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/479599/are-orcs-a-beast-race#latest

ToxicPAWS wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

Wait a minute. The Dwemer that remained were transformed to orcs? You know there’s much controversy about the Orcs relation to Elves right. Like thread closing name calling malarkey. That is something truly fascinating. I got to let that sink in for awhile.

That is in LOTR not ESO.

It’s here. It left me wandering about Orcs and lore for awhile with no de’facto solid clear understanding of things, but still fascinated by the lore.

This seems like it would have totally cleared all that up. And answered my questions about Dwemer at the same time.

But the hardcore lore junkies may fight about the topic. I know they will.

I can’t put all the lore together in my head at the same time. It’s like ripping all the pages out of a dozen books and randomly stacking them all back up together to one and trying to make sense of it. I’m all over the place with it.

Aigym_Hlervu

Well that's exactly what it is - various pages from dozens of books, game dialogues, events, names and much of its analytics. There is no direct statement in the lore that orcs are former dwemer, of course. It's like a puzzle game - knowing a major part of a picture you can predict the rest of it. But the Almighty Devs can still write another lore book or give us a certain dialogue or just a small phrase to a certain NPC we can trust that can ruin all the picture we have now. For example in Morrowind DLC they gave Azura just one phrase ("Why do you help Vivec?"- we ask her. "Help this murderer?!..." - she replied something like that) that along with other sources gives us an almost certain understanding of who murdered Nerevar. That's it.

VaranisArano

ToxicPAWS wrote: »

kylewwefan wrote: »

Wait a minute. The Dwemer that remained were transformed to orcs? You know there’s much controversy about the Orcs relation to Elves right. Like thread closing name calling malarkey. That is something truly fascinating. I got to let that sink in for awhile.

That is in LOTR not ESO.

Nah, that's TES. Orcs are properly called Orsimer. There were Aldmer who were transformed when their God/champion/ancestral spirit Trinimac was defeated and transformed by the Daedric Prince Boethiah.

That's TES for you. Our orcs are elves and our dwarves are elves.

That being said, I'm not seeing the connection between the Dwemer of the Rourken Clan and the Orsimer. From what I see, there's no indication that the Rourken didnt share the fate of the rest of the Dwemer as the 3rd Pocket guide makes it clear that they vanished, leving their ruins for scavengers.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Rourken
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Orc

Benzux

kylewwefan wrote: »

Wait a minute. The Dwemer that remained were transformed to orcs? You know there’s much controversy about the Orcs relation to Elves right. Like thread closing name calling malarkey. That is something truly fascinating. I got to let that sink in for awhile.

I don't think that's the case. I can't find any proof for Cygemai_Hlervu's hypothesis. The Chimer were cursed to become the Dunmer by Azura for the transgressions the Tribunal, who made a promise to King Nerevar of the Chimer (Azura's champion at the time) to not use Kagrenac's Three Tools on the Heart. But, after Voryn Dagoth went mad due to the influence of the Heart and was killed (possibly taking Nerevar down with him, it's still unknown if it was him or the Tribunal who killed the Chimer King), Sotha Sil learned how to use the tools and the Tribunal broke their promise to Nerevar (and Azura), which you may imagine angered Azura just a wee little bit. As a result, she "punished" the entire Chimer race (possibly to attempt putting the Tribunal into a bad light) by transforming them into the Dunmer. This didn't really work out, though, as the Tribunal managed to convince their people that it was actually a blessing.
As for the Orsimer, there are indeed many controversial theories about them, but nothing about them being Dwemer in the past. The most accepted theory is that when Boethiah slew and subsequently devoured Trinimac (disguising him/herself as the Aedra to trick the Chimer into venturing east), his followers were turned into the Orsimer.
And as for Dumac becoming Malacath? The only connection between the Dwemer and Malacath is the hammer Volendrung, which is of Dwemer origin, and still a Daedric Artifact. But what does that make of Spellbreaker - another Daedric Artifact of Dwemer origin? The answer may simply be that these Princes "stole" these powerful, magical artifacts from the Dwemer after they disappeared. And in fact, the only mention of the name "Dumalacath the Dwarf-Orc" comes from a single book described as "A Khajiit father in the grips of Moon Sugar gives his cub a history lesson", which makes this claim... not so believable. While the tale does seem to refer to the fateful Battle of Red Mountain, it is still essentially the drug-induced ramblings of a Khajiit high on Moon Sugar.
Out of the many theories about the fate of the Dwemer, the Rourken clan turning in the Orsimer is the one I find the least likely.

Aigym_Hlervu

Yes, friend, there is no direct proof as I've stated earlier myself. Thank you for your thoughts you've written, just several additions to them: the name "Dumalacath the Dwarf-Orc" is mentioned not only in the book you've stated. Read for example.. the "Five Songs of King Wulfharth". A very interesting text. The book you've mentioned, "The Tale of Dro'Zira", is indeed a not so trustful source. Anyway, everything you've written is of course lore based and has direct refs in the lore books. I've been speaking of something else. And another one on the most accepted theory: remember the words of Malacath he said after listening to the story of how he rose up from Boethiah's dung and all those Aldmeri who followed him became orcs (it's from the "Lord of Souls"). He said "You people are always so literal-minded" .

kylewwefan

See @Cygemai_Hlervu the people know way more about the lore than I do.


So if this makes any sense then; Dumalacath was a Dwemer King first....then a Daedra named Boethiah ate him. He rose up from her dung as a Daedra now and now goes by the name Malacath?

All the Dwemers that followed him were turned to orcs?

I’m trying to piece it together and failing badly.

LennoxPoodle

kylewwefan wrote: »

See @Cygemai_Hlervu the people know way more about the lore than I do.


So if this makes any sense then; Dumalacath was a Dwemer King first....then a Daedra named Boethiah ate him. He rose up from her dung as a Daedra now and now goes by the name Malacath?

All the Dwemers that followed him were turned to orcs?

I’m trying to piece it together and failing badly.

Let me repeat @Benzux 's statement here.
The most common creation myth for the orcs is about Trinimac, an Aedra and aldmeri warrior god, whose followers tried to stop the Velothi (ancestors of the Chimer) exodus. Boethia then ate Trinimac in response to that and excreted him as Malacath. His followers rubbed themselves with the feces coming with it and became the Orsimer. Depending which theory on the Dwemer you follow, this happened before those even came into existence.

Benzux

As mentioned above, Dumac transforming into the Daedric Prince Malacath could not happen, since the timelines don't match up. By the time that the Dwemer disappeared, the Orsimer were already a race, and had been for a loooooooooooooong time.

Korah_Eaglecry

kylewwefan wrote: »

See @Cygemai_Hlervu the people know way more about the lore than I do.


So if this makes any sense then; Dumalacath was a Dwemer King first....then a Daedra named Boethiah ate him. He rose up from her dung as a Daedra now and now goes by the name Malacath?

All the Dwemers that followed him were turned to orcs?

I’m trying to piece it together and failing badly.

No, Im not even sure if Cygemai is mistaken or theyre trying to insert their own personal head canon into the conversation. But its pretty clear how Malacath came to be and that the Orcs were originally Aldmer that were transformed and banished from Aldmeri society during the Merethic Era.

To keep it simple. Elves like to worship their ancestors. One of those ancestors went by the name Trinimac and according to some, he was more popular amongst the Aldmer than Auriel. Trinimac was a very outspoken ancestor god and there are many legends that revolve around how Trinimac turned into Malacath. But we will stick to the Orsimers version of events for the sake of simplicity.

Veloth was organizing the Chimer and leading them out of the Summerset Isles and because of this, Trinimac confronted Boethiah (1 of the 3 Good Daedra according to the Dunmer) for their part in the schism. According to the Orcs version of the story Mephala (another of the Good Daedra) appeared and stabbed Trinimac in the back as he attempted to fight Boethiah. Boethiah cursed him and ate him before torturing him in Boethiahs belly. After a while Boethiah became bored of all of this and banished Trinimac to the Oblivion plane of Choking Ash. Its in this plane of Oblivion that Trinimac "died" and was reborn as Malacath (some call him Mauloch), a hateful and vengeful god. The Choking Ash becoming his realm.

The whole rubbing Boethiahs excrement on their skin to change into the Orcs is racist Aldmeri propaganda.

There is no Dwemer involved in the origins of the Orcs.

Aigym_Hlervu

Hey, guys! I've spent quite much time to write it all down here with my not so ergonomic tablet virtual keyboard. Sorry for possible mistakes and a huge text below with no conclusion - it was stated in previous post and I'm just really tired after a hard work today. It's just a small part of the whole picture I'd want to share. Please, keep in mind several things while you read: once again - "There is no direct statement in the lore that orcs are former dwemer, of course". Otherwise no mystery could happen with all that thing. Secondly, too many references are given in the lore so I ask myself - if the Orcs are not intended to be the former Rourken Dwemer, why would the Devs give us those cues here and there? Why not the Bosmers or the Argonians? Why not just say they're vanished and let us all calm down. We all like to read thrilling books but ask anyone if he would like not to read but to live a life of its character full of violence and negative feelings - no one would have ever agreed. Well, keep in mind - it's just for mind feeding without any demands to be the Truth. But I do believe the Devs will give us more clues on what happened to the Deep Elves.

Anyway, once the question is made, here is a part of thoughts on this:
"The Five Songs of King Wulfharth":
The second song: "He <Wulfharth> fights the eastern Orcs and shouts their chief into Hell" - so, what do we have here? Wulfharth was the king of Skyrim, he had only Morrowind to the East of him. But as for the time of the first Era the history does not indicate neither the presence of any orc clans there, nor even an orc chief or a king.
The third song: "Seeing the strength of King Wulfharth, Orkey summoned the ghost of Alduin Time-Eater again. Nearly every Nord was eaten down to six years old. Boy Wulfharth pleaded to Shor, the dead Chieftain of the Gods, to help his people. Shor's own ghost then fought the Time-Eater on the spirit plane, as he did at the beginning of time, and he won, and Orkey's folk, the Orcs, were ruined."
The fifth song: "They slaughtered the sons of Skyrim, but not before King Wulfharth killed King Dumalacath the Dwarf-Orc, and doomed his people" - the Nordic version of the battle of the Red Mountain states that Wulfharth was the one to take part in it and slay Dumac down. As you know, a Dragon Break occurred at the time, so in some realities Wulfharth took part in the battle, in others he didn't, giving his role of a Dumac slayer to Nerevar.
So all the three songs seem to be telling about the same battle, and the "Tale of Dro'Zira" states that Wulfharth might used his thu'um to slay his adversary.
The Secret song: "This Nerevar is the son of Boethiah, one of the strongest Padomaics" - as we remember Boethiah was the one to devour Trinimac and thus create Malacath. And Nerevar is believed to slay Dumac. By the way it was Alandro Sul who was called an immortal son of Azura, not Nerevar. Don't remember the exact source now though..
"The Tale of Dro'Zira": "Never is it mentioned how Dro-Zira pounced atop Dumalacath, the Dwarf-Orc, when he had his blade to the throat of the Ash King so that he could not speak." - to say it more, a khajiiti version of the Battle reconciles with a Nordic one in this part of the story, in spite of they've no need in it.
"Nerevar at Red Mountain":
"Two heroes, one from the Chimer and one from the Dwemer, Indoril Nerevar and Dumac Dwarf-Orc, made peace between their people and together ousted the alien invaders." - here the Dumac's name is not changed, but he is still called a Dwarf-Orc. A bit strange, no?
"The 36 Lessons of Vivec", Sermon 36:
"Their king was Dumac Dwarf-Orc, but their high priest was Kagrenac the Blighter." - and again Dumac Dwarf-Orc. It's just up to us to guess why is he called an Orc. Ok, enough of it.
"Varieties of Faith: The Orcs":
"Many Orcs believe in the origin myth in which the Elven god Trinimac was eaten by Boethiah, and when he was excreted he was transformed into Malacath, and all his followers into Orcs. Those who believe in this Elven origin of Orc-kind often call them "Orsimer."
"Varieties of Faith in the Empire":
"Nerevar (Godkiller): The Chimeri king of Resdayn, the Golden Age of old Veloth. Slain during the Battle of Red Mountain, Nerevar was the Herald of the Triune Way, and is the foremost of the saints of Dunmeri faith. He is said to have killed Dumac, the Last Dwarven King, and feasted on his heart." - read again the Secret song of King Wulfharth above. Nerevar the son of Boethiah feasts on Dumac's heart. While an ancient myth tells us how Boethia devoured Trinimac. And.. what gods did Nerevar ever kill? Dagoth Ur? He was nog the one at the time. Dumac? But that only leads us to a pure philosophy of Dumac being an avatar of Trinimac.
"Mauloch (Malacath): An Orcish god, Mauloch troubled the heirs of King Harald for a long time. Fled east after his defeat at the Battle of Dragon Wall, ca. 1E660. His rage was said to fill the sky with his sulphurous hatred, later called the "Year of Winter in Summer" - what is this Year of Winter in Summer? This name the Nords gave to the First eruption of the Red Mountain, initiated by the Battle (the Second eruption as you remember happened in the 4th Era). The Fifth song of King Wulfharth also states "The fifth song of King Wulfharth is sad. The survivors of the disaster came back under a red sky. That year is called Sun's Death." The Year of Winter in Summer and the Year of the Sun's Death - different names for the samd evenf given by the Khajiits and the Nords (read it ghe First Guide to thd Empire). But that is not the point. Ask yourself, why the eruption that vanished the Dwemer folk is linked to the rage of Malacath? Dragon break? Might be.
ESO load screen of the Obsidian Scar: "The Orcs of the Daggerfall Covenant are mainly worshipers of Mauloch who, according to his adherents, is not by any means a Daedric Prince" - I will not give here any book refs on how do the Orcs worship Trinimac, Orkey, Malacath or Mauloch and his Code. Code of Mauloch, by the way. Just keep in mind that Mauloch could be an Aedra and Malacath - a false god, Daedra, who just tries to trick the Orcs and lead them the wrong way. As I see it, during the Velothi Exodus Boethiah did devour Trinimac, but it was not Malacath to rise up from his dung - it was Mauloch. Malacath came out only after the Battle of Red Mountain when all those Dwemer souls collectively became a new Daedric Prince. But it is just a theory here anc we all know the orcish relious matter to be ghe darkest in understanding even among themselves.
"Ancient Tales of the Dwemer, Part VI: Chimarvamidium" publisher notes: "The Cyrodiil historian Borgusilus Malier first proposed this as a solution to the disappearance of the Dwemer. He theorized that in 1E 668, the Dwemer enclaves were called together by one of their powerful philosopher-sorcerers ("Kagrnak" in some documents) to embark on a great journey, one of such sublime profundity that they abandoned all their cities and lands to join the quest to foreign climes as an entire culture." - this is about the date of the Battle. This one I think is correct, but it is just another topic not less then this one.

kylewwefan

Cygamei cited a book “The Lord of Souls” is an outside of the game Elder Scrolls Novel. I would assume the author had to be in close contact with the Elder Scrolls Loremaster from the time. Gotta admit I’m slightly interested to pick up a copy now.

Though The timelines and eras of these lorebooks completely evade me, the Dwemer architecture found all over Tamriel even the trials ; Halls of Fabrication and Asylum Sanctorum being so deeply rooted in Dark Elf or Chimer histories; but they are overwhelmingly Dwemer...it stirs thaughts is all.

The Dwemer must had been very large population at one point. Or did the Chimer build this also, we just recognize it as Dwemer?

How many era’s are there even? How long does an era last? I see reference to 1E660 and then 1E668. Is this supposed to be 8 years apart or much more? I’m not sure how to properly tell time?

So many references to this Dwarf Orc King. How does this keep getting brushed aside? And is it just a coincidence that his name spelled is so close to Malacath?

It’s also interesting the many names of Malacath, some cited here and there. Mauloch, Orkey, Trinimac, Fox, Old Knocker, Malak. Any way you spin it, he’s a Daedric Prince. So if that is the Dwarf Orc King, he would have had to been turned into a daedra somehow Or was one all along? Can a Daedric Prince just be created?

And then the Chimer King Nerevar. He was an immortal. How do you slay an immortal? Wouldn’t they just go back and spawn up at their own plane?


Big thanks for the contributions and different views!

Now I’m thoroughly confused. Lol

NotaDaedraWorshipper

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

ESO load screen of the Obsidian Scar: "The Orcs of the Daggerfall Covenant are mainly worshipers of Mauloch who, according to his adherents, is not by any means a Daedric Prince" - I will not give here any book refs on how do the Orcs worship Trinimac, Orkey, Malacath or Mauloch and his Code. Code of Mauloch, by the way. Just keep in mind that Mauloch could be an Aedra and Malacath - a false god, Daedra, who just tries to trick the Orcs and lead them the wrong way. As I see it, during the Velothi Exodus Boethiah did devour Trinimac, but it was not Malacath to rise up from his dung - it was Mauloch. Malacath came out only after the Battle of Red Mountain when all those Dwemer souls collectively became a new Daedric Prince. But it is just a theory here anc we all know the orcish relious matter to be ghe darkest in understanding even among themselves.

All of this feels a bit farfetched to me, but I will just point out to this bit, since I'm tired. Mauloch is Malacath. It's simply a different name for him, and he's not considered a proper Daedric Prince by the others likely because of the way he came to be.
Speaking of that, I think it's even stated by Malacath or someone else in some game/book that the "eating" is not as literal as mortals think.

This is the whole shtick with lore in Elder Scrolls. Few things are concrete and a lot of it are myths, legends and theories that exist in the world. Some are even propaganda or racist beliefs from certain individuals.

Benzux

kylewwefan wrote: »

Cygamei cited a book “The Lord of Souls” is an outside of the game Elder Scrolls Novel. I would assume the author had to be in close contact with the Elder Scrolls Loremaster from the time. Gotta admit I’m slightly interested to pick up a copy now.

Though The timelines and eras of these lorebooks completely evade me, the Dwemer architecture found all over Tamriel even the trials ; Halls of Fabrication and Asylum Sanctorum being so deeply rooted in Dark Elf or Chimer histories; but they are overwhelmingly Dwemer...it stirs thaughts is all.

The Dwemer must had been very large population at one point. Or did the Chimer build this also, we just recognize it as Dwemer?

How many era’s are there even? How long does an era last? I see reference to 1E660 and then 1E668. Is this supposed to be 8 years apart or much more? I’m not sure how to properly tell time?

So many references to this Dwarf Orc King. How does this keep getting brushed aside? And is it just a coincidence that his name spelled is so close to Malacath?

It’s also interesting the many names of Malacath, some cited here and there. Mauloch, Orkey, Trinimac, Fox, Old Knocker, Malak. Any way you spin it, he’s a Daedric Prince. So if that is the Dwarf Orc King, he would have had to been turned into a daedra somehow Or was one all along? Can a Daedric Prince just be created?

And then the Chimer King Nerevar. He was an immortal. How do you slay an immortal? Wouldn’t they just go back and spawn up at their own plane?


Big thanks for the contributions and different views!

Now I’m thoroughly confused. Lol

"Lord of Souls" is an Elder Scrolls novel, considered by most to be canon, or at least a part of the universe (unlike C0DA).

Halls of Fabrication is a completely different clockwork realm, akin to a plane of Oblivion, if I remember correctly. Could also be related to Sotha Sil, but not the Dwemer. Been a long time since I've done it, so cannot remember. Asylum Sanctorium is a creation of Sotha SIl, so again, the Dwemer inspiration is there, but it is still 100% Sotha Sil's creation. As for eveyrthing looking so similar... That's ZoS reusing assets. We saw this in Frosvault(Dwemeri origin), which reused assets from the Clockwork City.

The Dwemer did indeed have a large population, and they were the most advanced culture on Tamriel during their prime. There are some texts in-game that say the Dwemer and Chimer were the same thing (which leads to a lot of confusion), but that is largely seen as being false, simply propaganda from the Chimer. The Chimer and the Dwemer were able to live in Resdayn (nowadays known as Morrowind) due to the Dwemer living underground, so fights for territory were few (though they still happened).

As for the Eras, there are multiple, and each has lasted for different amounts of time. An Era isn't so much a set period of years (such as a decade or a century), but a period of time that mortals decided a starting point and an ending point for that was universally agreed on. There have been 6 Eras in total, 2 prehistoric and 4 modern. The two Prehistoric Eras were the Dawn Era and the Merethic Era. The Dawn Era began when Anu and Padomay (the two "primordial" beings from which the Et'Ada - eventually the Aedra and Daedra - came to be) came into existence within the Void, and it ended after the creation of the Mortal Plane of existence, Mundus, and the subsequent condemnation and "death" of the Trickster God Lorkhan, lasting an unknown amount of time.
The Merethic Era began when the Aedra created the Adamantine Tower on the island of Balfiera in ME 2500, and ended in ME 1 at the founding of the Camoran Dynasty, lasting approximately 2500 years(If the numbers don't make sense, imagine it like we talk about years before the birth of christ with "B.C xx").
Then we get to the Modern Eras, which there are four of, with the 4th Era being where we are "currently" in the Elder Scrolls timeline after the events of TESV: Skyrim. The First Era begins with the founding of the Camoran Dynasty, and it is at this point when Mortals begin to record things down a lot more. The First Era lasted 2920 years, ending with the assassination of Emperor Reman Cyrodiil III, thus ending the Reman Dynasty of Emperors. The Second Era starts after Versidue Shae becomes Potentate of Cyrodiil and declares the start of the Second Era, and it ends 896 years later when Tiber Septim conquers all of Tamriel and unites it under the Septim Dynasty, beginning the Third Era, which lasted 433 years and ended with the Oblivion Crisis when the last heir to the throne, Martin Septim, sacrifices himself to save Tamriel from Mehrunes Dagon. After that, the Fourth Era began, which has currently lasted for 201 years (the year the events of TESV: Skyrim happen). Until the release of TESVI, we don't know what happens after this.

As for the many names of Malacath, this is common among TES Lore, as many Aedra and Daedra have multiple different names given to them by the various cultures of Tamriel. A good example of this is Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time, who is called Auri-El by the Elves, and Alkosh by the Khajiit. Some also say that Alduin is simply the Nordic name for Akatosh, though I personally believe that the two are different entities, or, at the very least, Alduin is an Aspect of Akatosh, rather than being Akatosh himself.

And finally, as a reply to both you and Cygamei, we have to remember that not everything we find in-game is 100% accurate and "canon". TES uses what is known as the "unreliable narrator" in literally every single text and line of dialogue within the game (though whether or not this applies to the god-like beings we encounter, such as the various Daedra Lords and the Tribunal, is questionable), meaning that while these characters and in-game authors might believe their tales to be true, we cannot be sure that they actually are. This is especially apparent in the "Ancient Scrolls of the Dwemer" book series cited by Cygamei, which is largely accepted by various in-game sources to simply be a form of fiction with a Dwemeri twist. This gives everything in TES Lore a mysterious aura, as we cannot be sure whether something is true or not. As such, we cannot say that the Orsimer weren't originally the Dwemer, but evidence suggests that is most likely not the case, and that the Dwemer and Orsimer are only related by their common ancestor, the Aldmer.

EDIT: Oh, and about Nerevar's "Immortality", I cannot say for sure. But, if you dig far enough, you can find that "immortals" can be killed. Mortals are bound to Mundus, and thus can be killed or die of old age. The Divines are similarly bound to Mundus after its creation, so technically, they could be killed as well. It may also be possible to kill an Aedra by removing their Divine Spark, as was done with Lorkhan. However, the Daedra could be seen as "truly immortal", as they are not bound to Mundus in any way, and will simply reform their bodies from the Void if they die. This extends to Daedric Princes as well. Even if you somehow managed to kill one, they would simply reform in time.
And as for Mortals who have achieved "immortality", they are still mortals, and bound to Mundus. Vampires don't age and are immune to diseases, so they are largely accepted as being Immortal, but they can still be killed. The Living Gods of the Tribunal can be (and are eventually) killed as well, as long as they are separated from the source of their Divine Power - their Divine Spark, the Heart of Lorkhan - and then slain. So, whatever the case for King Nerevar's supposed "immortality", he was still a mortal, and thus, killable. Whether by the hands of the Tribunal, Dagoth Ur, or King Dumac, we cannot say.

Aigym_Hlervu

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

Few things are concrete and a lot of it are myths, legends and theories that exist in the world. Some are even propaganda or racist beliefs from certain individuals.

Benzux wrote: »

And finally, as a reply to both you and Cygamei, we have to remember that not everything we find in-game is 100% accurate and "canon". TES uses what is known as the "unreliable narrator" in literally every single text and line of dialogue within the game (though whether or not this applies to the god-like beings we encounter, such as the various Daedra Lords and the Tribunal, is questionable), meaning that while these characters and in-game authors might believe their tales to be true, we cannot be sure that they actually are. This is especially apparent in the "Ancient Scrolls of the Dwemer" book series cited by Cygamei, which is largely accepted by various in-game sources to simply be a form of fiction with a Dwemeri twist. This gives everything in TES Lore a mysterious aura, as we cannot be sure whether something is true or not. As such, we cannot say that the Orsimer weren't originally the Dwemer, but evidence suggests that is most likely not the case, and that the Dwemer and Orsimer are only related by their common ancestor, the Aldmer.

My agrees with you, friends, especially on these qoutes. I think Kylewwefan got the picture of the magnificence of the game lore. I think we have to thank the Devs they've created such a huge and detailed universe we always find something new in to us and can have so many points of view on just everything in the lore. I still remember that feeling TES 3 left me 16-17 years ago: who am I really in this game - a Nerevarine, an Imperial agent, the one who came to the right place at the right time? This universe is really great.

Ajaxandriel

Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »

Hey, guys! I've spent quite much time to write it all down here with my not so ergonomic tablet virtual keyboard. Sorry for possible mistakes and a huge text below with no conclusion - it was stated in previous post and I'm just really tired after a hard work today. It's just a small part of the whole picture I'd want to share. Please, keep in mind several things while you read: once again - "There is no direct statement in the lore that orcs are former dwemer, of course". Otherwise no mystery could happen with all that thing. Secondly, too many references are given in the lore so I ask myself - if the Orcs are not intended to be the former Rourken Dwemer, why would the Devs give us those cues here and there? Why not the Bosmers or the Argonians? Why not just say they're vanished and let us all calm down. We all like to read thrilling books but ask anyone if he would like not to read but to live a life of its character full of violence and negative feelings - no one would have ever agreed. Well, keep in mind - it's just for mind feeding without any demands to be the Truth. But I do believe the Devs will give us more clues on what happened to the Deep Elves.

Anyway, once the question is made, here is a part of thoughts on this:
"The Five Songs of King Wulfharth":
The second song: "He <Wulfharth> fights the eastern Orcs and shouts their chief into Hell" - so, what do we have here? Wulfharth was the king of Skyrim, he had only Morrowind to the East of him. But as for the time of the first Era the history does not indicate neither the presence of any orc clans there, nor even an orc chief or a king.
The third song: "Seeing the strength of King Wulfharth, Orkey summoned the ghost of Alduin Time-Eater again. Nearly every Nord was eaten down to six years old. Boy Wulfharth pleaded to Shor, the dead Chieftain of the Gods, to help his people. Shor's own ghost then fought the Time-Eater on the spirit plane, as he did at the beginning of time, and he won, and Orkey's folk, the Orcs, were ruined."
The fifth song: "They slaughtered the sons of Skyrim, but not before King Wulfharth killed King Dumalacath the Dwarf-Orc, and doomed his people" - the Nordic version of the battle of the Red Mountain states that Wulfharth was the one to take part in it and slay Dumac down. As you know, a Dragon Break occurred at the time, so in some realities Wulfharth took part in the battle, in others he didn't, giving his role of a Dumac slayer to Nerevar.
So all the three songs seem to be telling about the same battle, and the "Tale of Dro'Zira" states that Wulfharth might used his thu'um to slay his adversary.
The Secret song: "This Nerevar is the son of Boethiah, one of the strongest Padomaics" - as we remember Boethiah was the one to devour Trinimac and thus create Malacath. And Nerevar is believed to slay Dumac. By the way it was Alandro Sul who was called an immortal son of Azura, not Nerevar. Don't remember the exact source now though..
"The Tale of Dro'Zira": "Never is it mentioned how Dro-Zira pounced atop Dumalacath, the Dwarf-Orc, when he had his blade to the throat of the Ash King so that he could not speak." - to say it more, a khajiiti version of the Battle reconciles with a Nordic one in this part of the story, in spite of they've no need in it.
"Nerevar at Red Mountain":
"Two heroes, one from the Chimer and one from the Dwemer, Indoril Nerevar and Dumac Dwarf-Orc, made peace between their people and together ousted the alien invaders." - here the Dumac's name is not changed, but he is still called a Dwarf-Orc. A bit strange, no?
"The 36 Lessons of Vivec", Sermon 36:
"Their king was Dumac Dwarf-Orc, but their high priest was Kagrenac the Blighter." - and again Dumac Dwarf-Orc. It's just up to us to guess why is he called an Orc. Ok, enough of it.
"Varieties of Faith: The Orcs":
"Many Orcs believe in the origin myth in which the Elven god Trinimac was eaten by Boethiah, and when he was excreted he was transformed into Malacath, and all his followers into Orcs. Those who believe in this Elven origin of Orc-kind often call them "Orsimer."
"Varieties of Faith in the Empire":
"Nerevar (Godkiller): The Chimeri king of Resdayn, the Golden Age of old Veloth. Slain during the Battle of Red Mountain, Nerevar was the Herald of the Triune Way, and is the foremost of the saints of Dunmeri faith. He is said to have killed Dumac, the Last Dwarven King, and feasted on his heart." - read again the Secret song of King Wulfharth above. Nerevar the son of Boethiah feasts on Dumac's heart. While an ancient myth tells us how Boethia devoured Trinimac. And.. what gods did Nerevar ever kill? Dagoth Ur? He was nog the one at the time. Dumac? But that only leads us to a pure philosophy of Dumac being an avatar of Trinimac.
"Mauloch (Malacath): An Orcish god, Mauloch troubled the heirs of King Harald for a long time. Fled east after his defeat at the Battle of Dragon Wall, ca. 1E660. His rage was said to fill the sky with his sulphurous hatred, later called the "Year of Winter in Summer" - what is this Year of Winter in Summer? This name the Nords gave to the First eruption of the Red Mountain, initiated by the Battle (the Second eruption as you remember happened in the 4th Era). The Fifth song of King Wulfharth also states "The fifth song of King Wulfharth is sad. The survivors of the disaster came back under a red sky. That year is called Sun's Death." The Year of Winter in Summer and the Year of the Sun's Death - different names for the samd evenf given by the Khajiits and the Nords (read it ghe First Guide to thd Empire). But that is not the point. Ask yourself, why the eruption that vanished the Dwemer folk is linked to the rage of Malacath? Dragon break? Might be.
ESO load screen of the Obsidian Scar: "The Orcs of the Daggerfall Covenant are mainly worshipers of Mauloch who, according to his adherents, is not by any means a Daedric Prince" - I will not give here any book refs on how do the Orcs worship Trinimac, Orkey, Malacath or Mauloch and his Code. Code of Mauloch, by the way. Just keep in mind that Mauloch could be an Aedra and Malacath - a false god, Daedra, who just tries to trick the Orcs and lead them the wrong way. As I see it, during the Velothi Exodus Boethiah did devour Trinimac, but it was not Malacath to rise up from his dung - it was Mauloch. Malacath came out only after the Battle of Red Mountain when all those Dwemer souls collectively became a new Daedric Prince. But it is just a theory here anc we all know the orcish relious matter to be ghe darkest in understanding even among themselves.
"Ancient Tales of the Dwemer, Part VI: Chimarvamidium" publisher notes: "The Cyrodiil historian Borgusilus Malier first proposed this as a solution to the disappearance of the Dwemer. He theorized that in 1E 668, the Dwemer enclaves were called together by one of their powerful philosopher-sorcerers ("Kagrnak" in some documents) to embark on a great journey, one of such sublime profundity that they abandoned all their cities and lands to join the quest to foreign climes as an entire culture." - this is about the date of the Battle. This one I think is correct, but it is just another topic not less then this one.

Very interesting. I never thought about it but I did notice the strange occurences like "Dumalacath" without being able to fix them in the larger story.

Finally it makes sense totally! The orsimer would be a degeneration of dwemer, and they kept their taste for metal.

(Fun enough, I always saw the (acnient) Orcs of ESO more like Dwarves (from classics like Tolkien/Warhammer/Warcraft), even the Pariah's Pinnacle looks like the Moria.)

And this would explain what happened with the Rourken, who were not implied by the Red Moment.

Or as your points suggest it, even the Resdayn Dwarves became orcs.

One more "hint" of this theory: Volendrung.
It was the hammer of the Rourken clan and the beacon for the creation of Hammerfell as a country (for these Dwemer). Guess what? It's the hammer of Malacath...

Two issues:

- how to explain if orcs existed before the Red Moment? => They would not. Because of the Dragon Break (loss of data) the historians wrote "illusions" of orcish records, who were actually other races. We have no witness anyway. Seems legit.


- seemingly Rourken seceded from Dumac's realm, so why "Dumalacath"? => ony explaination would be: Resdayn Dwemer to become orcs themselves, not that silly "litteral" soul-skin of the Numidium theory.
- Then Malacath being in house of Troubles at Veloth's time is also an "illusion" from Dragon Break, actually he was simply the "dark side" of living king Dumac before the Red Moment, the poets and tellers altered afterwards into that Daedric Prince.

Llidoryc

The Dwemer or "deep elves" were present around the time of Nerevar and the Tribunal. the dude in the spidery mechanical conveyance thing is Yagrum Bagarn, and for all intents and purposes is the last living dwemer. he looks like that because he is infected with corpus disease. but dwemer being "dwarves" is a misnomer. they are actually another breed of elf like the chimer, falmer, and Ayleids. as for Sotha sil, he is an original Chimer. All of the dunmer were Chimer before Azura burned their skin and changed them forever because she was pissed at the Tribunal

Aigym_Hlervu

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

Finally it makes sense totally! The orsimer would be a degeneration of dwemer, and they kept their taste for metal.

I also had some thoughts right in the same direction. Degeneration of a civilization is not something outstanding - Falmers are a good example.

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

Or as your points suggest it, even the Resdayn Dwarves became orcs

No, all I've written about the Orcs considers the Rourken Dwemeri clan only. The fate of those of Resdayn is unclear totally and there are no clues they've changed to Orcs. At least I'm not aware of them.

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

One more "hint" of this theory: Volendrung.It was the hammer of the Rourken clan and the beacon for the creation of Hammerfell as a country (for these Dwemer). Guess what? It's the hammer of Malacath...

Yes, I've already given it a credit above.

Ajaxandriel wrote: »

- how to explain if orcs existed before the Red Moment? => They would not. Because of the Dragon Break (loss of data) the historians wrote "illusions" of orcish records, who were actually other races. We have no witness anyway. Seems legit.

Well, yes, why not a Dragon Break? But I have another explanation in a form of a question:
1. The book "True Nature of Orcs" here in ESO version that states the Orcs were born during the latter days of the Dawn Era is banned in the Daggerfall Covenant as an anti-orc propaganda.
2. The First Council (Resdayn) was established in 1E 416. The Dwemer dissappeared in 1E 668 (or in 1E 700 as it is commonly accepted). The Ra Gada full scale invasion happened in 1E 808. The first Orsinium was built in ~1E900 by Torug gro-Igron and razed to the ground in 1E 980 after a thirty years siege (my personal guess - not a siege but a full scale war).
3. According to the 1st volume of the "Dwemer Inquiries" and the 1st and 3rd volumes of the "Dwarves" written by two true scholars, the Dwemeri presence was strong in the lands of modern Skyrim, Hammerfell and High Rock.
4. Hundreds of beastmen were set free by the rulers of the Summerset Isles in the 1 Era who allowed them to settle lands north of Valenwood. These Orcish tribes chose an uninhabited mountain region near Old H'roldan in High Rock. Others went further to Saarthal, Skyrim. Orsinium did possess considerable strength during the First Era, when Orcish refugees fleeing the Ra Gada invasion of Hammerfell joined the beastman army already gathering there. This army was determined to take control of the Bjoulsae River and force the kingdom of Wayrest to pay Orsinium regularly for its use. Other powers of the area rose to confront the Orcs, principally the Yokudan Order of Diagna and the chieftan-kings of early Daggerfall.
5. Both Orcs and Dwemeri are characterized in the books as fearsome, unfathomable, and cruel.

The question is: if the Orcs had started their march resulting in their considerable strength before 1E 668 (1E 700) then how did they not manage to collide with the Dwemeri in the very same lands by the time, during the time or after the time (no matter as we understand) of the Rourken clan expansion (~1E 416)? I don't know even a single source stating at least a single battle or a fact of cooperation between them. In my opinion that could happen only in two ways:
1. The Rourken Dwemeri are the folk known today as the Orcs.
2. The Orcs started their travel after 1E 668 (1E 700). This case still does not contradict or prove the Way 1 above, but also cues that the history of the Orcs we all know is much shorter it is thought to be. Because no really valuable (not legendary or mythic) events in the history of the Orc clans even exist before those events.

Cundu_Ertur

Orcs and Dwemer co-existed as distinct cultures. They were not the same. The creation of the Orcs was in the early Merethic era or late Dawn era, when there were no dates. In the Dawn era even basic causality did not yet exist. The Dwemer began their unique studies and cultural achievements in the Dawn era. Orcs were found in Tamriel by Topal the Pilot in the Merethic era, see the Father of the Niben.

The Rouken clan only existed as a separate entity for a few centuries. Also, they would have lived underground, minimizing the degree of contact between them and other races.

Also, I can't find any account of any major battles between Argonians and Orcs, does that mean all Orcs are actually Argonian?

Aigym_Hlervu

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Orcs and Dwemer co-existed as distinct cultures. They were not the same. The creation of the Orcs was in the early Merethic era or late Dawn era ..

Cundu_Ertur wrote: »

Also, I can't find any account of any major battles between Argonians and Orcs, does that mean all Orcs are actually Argonian?

Please, read it again slowly: "Because no really valuable (not legendary or mythic) events in the history of the Orc clans even exist before those events." On Argonians and Orcs - of course that doesn't and it's no surprise you can't find not only any of those battles between them but also a single adequate cue to think Argonians to be Orcs. That is why we are talking exactly about the Rourken Dwemeri clan. Separate co-existence would have in any way be stated somewhere in the lore. You know those examples yourself. Please, read the posts above to have answers on your questions.