Trial/Skin Carries

Benzux

So, recently, the question of Trial carries came up among the Administration team of a Guild I am in, and I wanted to ask the community - specifically those who do end-game content such as Veteran Trials - what you think of the idea of Trial/Skin carries.
In case you are unfamiliar, a trial/skin carry is where an experienced Trial group takes in one or more persons who wish to obtain the Veteran rewards from a Trial (such as the vAS Skin or vMoL skin), but aren't capable of clearing the content themselves, so they pay an experienced group large amounts of Gold to carry them through this difficult content.
So, what does the community think? I don't think Trial carries are against the ToS, so technically there isn't anything wrong with them, but I do want to hear what the "Elite" players think of this kind of behaviour. Do you see it as harmless way of making "easy" Gold? Or do you think that if one wants to obtain these rewards, they should work for them? We are so far leaning more towards the latter, but I wanted to hear other opinions on Trial carries before we make a "final decision".

Hämähäkki

For me it's fine, I know folks who do that to finance their guild.
Only rule they have is, no bragging about it.

Starlight_Knight

Fine by me. i often considered buying some runs myself, perhaps one day i will.

Noldornir

They should work for it 'cause a "trophy" is valueless if not "earned".

That said, I'm ok with guilds selling it; I only "blame" player buying skins/titles/personalities and pretending they had to sweat for that.

The real issue comes when someone uses this achievement to "guess" the ability of a player (no skin= noob - skin= pro)

BTW you can realize a vMoL skin-buyer after 10 minutes in a dungeon 90% (unless he did buy but could have cleaned with a proper group) times.

I would be happier with ppl selling/giving out progress spots (1-2) for ppl that want to EARN the achievement but has no group you could charge the guy X gold/run you make (and not ask him to "die n stand idle") and settings a max amount of time/wipes per try so the better the guy is the less he pays. I know that's probably impossible yet it would be more like a "private schooling" than a "here u go the skin u noob and thanks for your load of cash"

Camb0Sl1ce

I have no problem with it, I've carried players for skins its a great way to make gold if you raid a lot and don't have the time to farm mats for pots. I've also been in guilds that'll train people if they're willing to learn and improve, got some players clears and skins that way as well.

tthhyyss

Not everybody cares for trials you know? some questing players just wanna look cool... there is nothing wrong with groups offering it, its a good thing. So everybody can get the good weapons and gear and cool skins etc to enjoy their game on the' way 'THEY' want it to play Not everybody is good enough to join endgame trials for a lots of reasons, they lack time in real life, can't master proper dps.. don't care at all about doiing trials etc... But everybody can farm golds and this way they can buy what they want and enjoy the game even more. cause in the end, that's why you play a game, to have fun. And nobody forces anybody to buy it, if you are against it that is your opinion. Just mind your own business then and everybody happy.

Royaji

Definitely not against ToS. Gold does not smell and those pots for progression runs are not exactly cheap.

Although I do prefer it when the whole thing is kept a bit more "hush-hush" and "I know a guy who knows a guy" style. I know that it is a bit irrational but advertising carry runs in zone chat leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

And one thing to be aware of, end-game community is pretty small. And people tend to remember the names of their carries. So don't be surprised if some guild will turn you down when you decide to join them for a real progression run.

Mrslizardface

I think it's fine. Majority of carry runs I sell are to pvpers who aren't interested in pve at all but want a skin to make their vampire character look less horrific

tthhyyss

Royaji wrote: »

And one thing to be aware of, end-game community is pretty small. And people tend to remember the names of their carries. So don't be surprised if some guild will turn you down when you decide to join them for a real progression run.

Real endgame guilds have standards you have to meet before joining anyway, like dps parsing the skelly for example.. So i don't see that as a problem tbh... If he is good enough i'm giving him a chance, not caring if he bought a run before. Maybe he had other reasons before to buy something. Times changes, and everybody can get "gut" with some practice.

Floliroy

tthhyyss wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

And one thing to be aware of, end-game community is pretty small. And people tend to remember the names of their carries. So don't be surprised if some guild will turn you down when you decide to join them for a real progression run.

Real endgame guilds have standards you have to meet before joining, like dps parsing the skelly for example.. So i don't see that as a problem tbh... If he is good enough i'm giving him a chance, not caring if he bought a run before. Maybe he had other reasons before to buy something. Times changes, and everybody can get "gut" with some practice.

Usually it's not dummy parse but raid parse they are looking at.

UrbanMonk

Noldornir wrote: »

They should work for it 'cause a "trophy" is valueless if not "earned".

The real issue comes when someone uses this achievement to "guess" the ability of a player (no skin= noob - skin= pro)

BTW you can realize a vMoL skin-buyer after 10 minutes in a dungeon 90% (unless he did buy but could have cleaned with a proper group) times.
"

@Noldornir - I don't agree with highlighted part of your comment.

On my main account, I've all skins till vAS. I worked for it with my raiding guild. Then at the same time, I have an alt account and one evening I did vMOL on that acc. The only catch is that account is still 300 or so CP. But none the less that toon who did the raid was still fully geared up and did his part. Now at about 400 cp with vMOL skin, would I be considered Noob or someone who bought the skin?

tthhyyss

Floliroy wrote: »

tthhyyss wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

And one thing to be aware of, end-game community is pretty small. And people tend to remember the names of their carries. So don't be surprised if some guild will turn you down when you decide to join them for a real progression run.

Real endgame guilds have standards you have to meet before joining, like dps parsing the skelly for example.. So i don't see that as a problem tbh... If he is good enough i'm giving him a chance, not caring if he bought a run before. Maybe he had other reasons before to buy something. Times changes, and everybody can get "gut" with some practice.

Usually it's not dummy parse but raid parse they are looking at.

Well you know what i meant anyway

tthhyyss

Everybody should just mind their own business, all probs solved

Starlight_Knight

ill just add - Most of the players i know who have Emperor brought it, from back in the day when a DC guild would let EP players have it from one of the lesser played campaigns.
As a PVP player that used to **** me off.
But i see it works both ways if i want some of the end game PVE content done then the option is there...

hazelnuts

if there is gold envolved ban them all, seller and buyer.
These things you get from trials are called achievemnts because of a reason and not because you have enough gold from crown selling

FakeFox

First of all, yes it is totally fine for ZOS unless you do it for real money. In my personal opinion there is nothing wrong with it either. The achievements, skins or titles that are sold have very little prestige in the endgame community and from my experience most buyers are mostly interested in looking cool anyway. I only see a problem when players brag with those things or try to use them to get into raid groups, but the community is too small for this to not get noticed. But in the end, it all doesn't matter, it's just way too easy money.

NordSwordnBoard

ToxicPAWS wrote: »

Noldornir wrote: »

They should work for it 'cause a "trophy" is valueless if not "earned".

The real issue comes when someone uses this achievement to "guess" the ability of a player (no skin= noob - skin= pro)

BTW you can realize a vMoL skin-buyer after 10 minutes in a dungeon 90% (unless he did buy but could have cleaned with a proper group) times.
"

@Noldornir - I don't agree with highlighted part of your comment.

On my main account, I've all skins till vAS. I worked for it with my raiding guild. Then at the same time, I have an alt account and one evening I did vMOL on that acc. The only catch is that account is still 300 or so CP. But none the less that toon who did the raid was still fully geared up and did his part. Now at about 400 cp with vMOL skin, would I be considered Noob or someone who bought the skin?

Neither. If you did your part, why would anybody question your ability? The point being made is the veneer of the vet skin wears thin when you have to perform well enough to overcome an equally or less difficult task. Noldornir is pointing out that its a problem when people make an assumption based on skin alone.

DarkPicture

I will only say... I need more moneys because this month with carries is terrible we need more people who want to be carried!! And ofc they should have money to pay

idk

OP's definition of a trial/skin carry is inaccurate.

Yes, some teams sell carries but just because someone is carried does not mean they paid gold. We get some of those in our guild that are not core material yet, but good raiders, their clears of new content. They did not pay.

So is the discussion about paying gold for a carry or just getting carried? I guess it does not matter just like it does not matter what the administration of OP's guild thinks of the matter as it is a legit practice.

idk

Royaji wrote: »

And one thing to be aware of, end-game community is pretty small. And people tend to remember the names of their carries. So don't be surprised if some guild will turn you down when you decide to join them for a real progression run.

I have yet to see a raiding guild accept a member, or at least make them a rank for raiding, without a real parse. We want to see someone can do actual damage (or handle their role) in actual raids vs dummy parses.

Royaji

idk wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

And one thing to be aware of, end-game community is pretty small. And people tend to remember the names of their carries. So don't be surprised if some guild will turn you down when you decide to join them for a real progression run.

I have yet to see a raiding guild accept a member, or at least make them a rank for raiding, without a real parse. We want to see someone can do actual damage (or handle their role) in actual raids vs dummy parses.

It's not just about the parse though. I know a guy who bought pretty much every carry he could at the beginning and made a bit of a meme out of himself. Later he decided to get something done legit. And even despite his solid parses those guilds that carried him pretty much laughed at his face when he tried to get a spot.

msalvia

hazelnuts wrote: »

if there is gold envolved ban them all, seller and buyer.
These things you get from trials are called achievemnts because of a reason and not because you have enough gold from crown selling

Wouldn't something have to be against the ToS to "ban" people? And since carries are not against the ToS, it's reactionary and overly-emotional to call for bans.

I would never buy a carry personally, but it's hard to say people didn't earn something when they spend 5 million+ gold for a cosmetic skin. And there should be some incentive for people who put in the work to learn a trial--selling carries is good gold.

I have a much bigger problem with carry beggars, like this pug group leader in vAA that literally stood still (read: died 30 times) and spammed flurry (no exagerration, mashing 1 button) the whole trial (cp810 power leveler, of course). Now that's a crappy way to get a carry. I still see dude organizing vet raids in craglorn...cuz what can you do when the group leader is trash?

msalvia

Noldornir wrote: »

They should work for it 'cause a "trophy" is valueless if not "earned".

Sounds good on paper, but unrealistic. It's like saying that being born with wealth is valueless because it's not earned. Of course it has value! Just perhaps not the whole "work ethic / self-satisfaction" value.

Noldornir

msalvia wrote: »

Sounds good on paper, but unrealistic. It's like saying that being born with wealth is valueless because it's not earned. Of course it has value! Just perhaps not the whole "work ethic / self-satisfaction" value.

Wealth gives you advantages, many, a skin does not does it?

Self satisfaction should come from what it represents not from how it looks but that's just my opinion not really something to bother T&C with.

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Noldornir is pointing out that its a problem when people make an assumption based on skin alone.

Couldn't have explained that better ty

DovahkiinHeart

A friend cleared vCR+1 several times and they still bought carries for the gear. When I asked them why spend money on something they could already do, they told me that they're basically paying for everyone to give them their perfected gear instead of hoping someone who got what he wanted didn't need it themselves (which in most cases, they do). Not exactly related, but something to think about.

KillsAllElves

I got carried years ago for vMOL achievement and skin with my friends, i gots no problem admitting they carried me! Because they did, But i did my part with 24k dps.

I know 6 try hard elitist nerds who dont seemed to be bothered with carrying a 12th person for gold or free,

As a friend told me before. "in trials, someone always gettin carried so it makes no difference"

Sinolai

Dont really care. I have seen that skins and titles dont really tell much about how good oe bad tye player is.
Besides, selling carries is really good money maker (my friend told me so.)
On the other hand, I feel a bit sorry for seeing people (sometimes even decent players with just no friends that would be on similar skill level) paying for carries that most people wpuld do for fun or by accident with dungeon finder.

Benzux

idk wrote: »

OP's definition of a trial/skin carry is inaccurate.

Yes, some teams sell carries but just because someone is carried does not mean they paid gold. We get some of those in our guild that are not core material yet, but good raiders, their clears of new content. They did not pay.

So is the discussion about paying gold for a carry or just getting carried? I guess it does not matter just like it does not matter what the administration of OP's guild thinks of the matter as it is a legit practice.

I was specifically asking about those people who pay millions of gold for a Trial skin they wouldn't be able to get normally (because their dps/CP is too low, or for some other reason), not those who get carried by the rest of the team when there's no Gold involved. I apologise if that was not evident in my post.

The question originally came up when someone started advertising that their group were going to do vAS carries for the skin in exchange for Gold, and the Admin team didn't really know how to handle the situation. The discussion within our Guild was whether or not we deem Skin carries as acceptable, and I wanted to find out what other people thought about the matter (so we could get an "outside perspective", so to speak), which could help us with our judgement.

In the end, we've collectively decided that doing trial carries is okay, but that advertising such things on our page is not. Keep these things as Royaji put it, "I know a guy who knows a guy"-style.

Thank you all for your feedback Feel free to continue discussing the topic.

rotaugen454

Buying runs for gear would make more sense to me. It can be hard to get in a guild that can get gear, and even if you can, it would be faster to buy a carry and get all the gear.

p00tx

Floliroy wrote: »

tthhyyss wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

And one thing to be aware of, end-game community is pretty small. And people tend to remember the names of their carries. So don't be surprised if some guild will turn you down when you decide to join them for a real progression run.

Real endgame guilds have standards you have to meet before joining, like dps parsing the skelly for example.. So i don't see that as a problem tbh... If he is good enough i'm giving him a chance, not caring if he bought a run before. Maybe he had other reasons before to buy something. Times changes, and everybody can get "gut" with some practice.

Usually it's not dummy parse but raid parse they are looking at.

We only have clips of dummy parses to go off of on console. No add-ons


On topic: I don't have a problem with skin/chest sales, but I have selfish motivations for supporting it (raiding is really freaking expensive). I feel that end game is end game, no matter which part of end game you focused on (PvP, PvE, Fishing, Farming, Trading, Housing, whatever), and if you have the gold to pay for the runs, then you've reached a point where wearing the skin is fine. A lot of my PvP buddies have exactly zero interest in running trials or hitting hm DLC dungeons, but they're as vain as the rest of us and want their characters to look cool while murdering in Cyrodil, and they've got plenty of gold from selling AP/telvar purchased items. I wouldn't think less of them for purchasing the skins. Most end game raiders care way more about their titles than their skins anyway.

Someone already mentioned this, but we do keeps tabs in the raiding community, and skin sellers remember who buys and who doesn't. No one is going to skate through and jump into an end game raiding team just because they've got a pretty skin. We watch out for our own. Also, most guilds don't allow their members to advertise skin sales to their guild mates in raiding guild chat.

idk

Royaji wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

And one thing to be aware of, end-game community is pretty small. And people tend to remember the names of their carries. So don't be surprised if some guild will turn you down when you decide to join them for a real progression run.

I have yet to see a raiding guild accept a member, or at least make them a rank for raiding, without a real parse. We want to see someone can do actual damage (or handle their role) in actual raids vs dummy parses.

It's not just about the parse though. I know a guy who bought pretty much every carry he could at the beginning and made a bit of a meme out of himself. Later he decided to get something done legit. And even despite his solid parses those guilds that carried him pretty much laughed at his face when he tried to get a spot.

I guarantee there is more to the story that what you are sharing. No raiding guild will laugh at a solid player that can put out worthy dps and stay alive. They always want good players. Even if recruiting is closed they are always wiling to accept a strong player.