Back bar on tank: Staves the only option, or can 2H work?

CMDR_Un1k0rn

Hi there guys. I'm aware that it is common for tanks to run a destro' staff on their back bar.

With that said, would it be viable, and by viable I mean complete content at a casual level (READ: No leaderboard runs), to run a tank with S&B front, 2h back?

Just want to know how I should plan out my tank over the coming weeks and months.

WrathOfInnos

Anything is viable for casual content. The main reason for a staff back bar is to activate the back bar enchant on cooldown. Wall of Elements is typically used to ensure that Infused Crusher procs every 5s, even if you have swapped back to your front bar. Crusher is half strength on a 1H weapon, so is not ideal to use on your front bar. You could put it on a back bar 2H and get full strength, but 2H doesn’t have any DoTs that will activate it automatically from the other bar. Bow does, and I’ve seen some tanks back bar a bow with Endless Hail to proc Crusher.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Anything is viable for casual content. The main reason for a staff back bar is to activate the back bar enchant on cooldown. Wall of Elements is typically used to ensure that Infused Crusher procs every 5s, even if you have swapped back to your front bar. Crusher is half strength on a 1H weapon, so is not ideal to use on your front bar. You could put it on a back bar 2H and get full strength, but 2H doesn’t have any DoTs that will activate it automatically from the other bar. Bow does, and I’ve seen some tanks back bar a bow with Endless Hail to proc Crusher.

I see. Just to check I understand it correctly, the DoT has to come from a weapon ability to proc the enchant yes? So guild skills don't count?

Royaji

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Anything is viable for casual content. The main reason for a staff back bar is to activate the back bar enchant on cooldown. Wall of Elements is typically used to ensure that Infused Crusher procs every 5s, even if you have swapped back to your front bar. Crusher is half strength on a 1H weapon, so is not ideal to use on your front bar. You could put it on a back bar 2H and get full strength, but 2H doesn’t have any DoTs that will activate it automatically from the other bar. Bow does, and I’ve seen some tanks back bar a bow with Endless Hail to proc Crusher.

I see. Just to check I understand it correctly, the DoT has to come from a weapon ability to proc the enchant yes? So guild skills don't count?

It has to be a ground targeted (or caster targeted AoE) DoT from a weapon ability.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

Royaji wrote: »

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Anything is viable for casual content. The main reason for a staff back bar is to activate the back bar enchant on cooldown. Wall of Elements is typically used to ensure that Infused Crusher procs every 5s, even if you have swapped back to your front bar. Crusher is half strength on a 1H weapon, so is not ideal to use on your front bar. You could put it on a back bar 2H and get full strength, but 2H doesn’t have any DoTs that will activate it automatically from the other bar. Bow does, and I’ve seen some tanks back bar a bow with Endless Hail to proc Crusher.

I see. Just to check I understand it correctly, the DoT has to come from a weapon ability to proc the enchant yes? So guild skills don't count?

It has to be a ground targeted (or caster targeted AoE) DoT from a weapon ability.

That's all I needed to know. Thank you. I'll go staff.

DocFrost72

2h ability stampede leaves an aoe dot (and procs backbar enchant).

Brawler and rally would be cool additions (shield based on enemy numbers and evasion+ burst heal).

Edit: next patch.

CMDR_Un1k0rn

DocFrost72 wrote: »

2h ability stampede leaves an aoe dot (and procs backbar enchant).

Brawler and rally would be cool additions (shield based on enemy numbers and evasion+ burst heal).

Edit: next patch.

Oh yeah... I am reading that now in another tab.

This might change things. Holy crap. A change from the patch that makes me happy? Inconceivable!

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

2h ability stampede leaves an aoe dot (and procs backbar enchant).

Brawler and rally would be cool additions (shield based on enemy numbers and evasion+ burst heal).

Edit: next patch.

Oh yeah... I am reading that now in another tab.

This might change things. Holy crap. A change from the patch that makes me happy? Inconceivable!

Yeah, tanks made it out pretty good this patch, almost everything for that role is better.

Cortimi

I have always run 2h on back bar with Infused Crusher or powered. All you need is one simple light attack to proc an enchant, if that is your concern.

I literally see no reason why you would use a desto staff on back back for a Stam character. Your back bar is for buffs and utility, which 2h provided more of for Stam characters.

SoLooney

Bow is the other good option, hail and infused crusher is lit. Off tanks can do a lot of damage in this set up

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Cortimi wrote: »

I have always run 2h on back bar with Infused Crusher or powered. All you need is one simple light attack to proc an enchant, if that is your concern.

I literally see no reason why you would use a desto staff on back back for a Stam character. Your back bar is for buffs and utility, which 2h provided more of for Stam characters.

because a good tank is not stam or mag based, they use both, magic for utility and stam for blacking/bashing. you need to have a good pool of both to make a truly effective tank, all my tank have ~36k health and ~21k mag and stam. with slightly more stam then mag for shards/orbs synergy, as stam is more important, a tank that cant block is a dead tank.

Krayl

Cortimi wrote: »

I have always run 2h on back bar with Infused Crusher or powered. All you need is one simple light attack to proc an enchant, if that is your concern.

I literally see no reason why you would use a desto staff on back back for a Stam character. Your back bar is for buffs and utility, which 2h provided more of for Stam characters.

A tank isn't a "stam" character. Some of the best skills in the tanking kit are mag based. Not only does a back bar staff help proc those enchants, a lightning staff will help set off-balance for your team and your heavies on that bar can help you get mag back.

Either way is fine, I tanked double S&B for a long time. Nowadays I'd be hard pressed to give up a staff though. Then again i've been tanking on a necro and in my default skill setup the only thing I use stam for is blocking.

OrphanHelgen

endless hail or wall of elements for full enchant proc from backbar, thats the reason. All other stuff like dmg or status effects, is just a bonus. 2 hander doesn't have any ground aoe dot to put down. I don't know if the bleed from brawler procs enchants, I dont think it do only the first hit.

Suddwrath

If you only plan on doing casual content then you would be just fine using a wet noodle on your backbar.

With the new tank set from Sunspire the meta has also changed to where now a healer is the one who wears Torugs for the stronger crusher enchant (usually the healer who has IA), so it isn’t as important for the tank to run a 2H on the backbar since now the healer is providing the strong crusher.

Akylles

Just to put this out there as well, as I don't believe it was touched on in any of the replies (sorry if I just missed it, but it is actually in there somewhere!), but one reason for choosing the ice staff for your back bar is that the destro staff passives allow you to reduce the cost of block and to increase the amount of damage you can block while using an ice staff. This, in combo with the already-mentioned Wall of Ele skill putting your full-strength Crusher debuff on boss/mob, is why you see the ice staff as the back bar weapon for tanks so much.

I am all for not having every single char have to follow a specific meta, so by all means make whatever char you want! However, it's also good to know why the meta is what it is, so that you understand the costs/benefits of anything your tweaking for your own personal preference

The meta changes from time to time, anyways, so it's not crazy useful to be married to any one specific way of doing things on all your chars. I'm an altoholic, so I have variations on damn near everything.

BUT! As I said, the ice staff, other than the sword/shield, is really the only place you'll get weapon skill line passives that really beef up blocking amount and significantly reduce the cost. With the changes (a while back now) to how blocking will drain stamina (ticks once every quarter second, I believe, or half second), it's quite useful to have the reduction in cost, for those (probably many) times when you need to block and don't have the time to swap back to your main bar.

Just throwin that tidbit in there for (hopefully) useful pondering!

FrancisCrawford

CMDR_Un1k0rn wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Anything is viable for casual content. The main reason for a staff back bar is to activate the back bar enchant on cooldown. Wall of Elements is typically used to ensure that Infused Crusher procs every 5s, even if you have swapped back to your front bar. Crusher is half strength on a 1H weapon, so is not ideal to use on your front bar. You could put it on a back bar 2H and get full strength, but 2H doesn’t have any DoTs that will activate it automatically from the other bar. Bow does, and I’ve seen some tanks back bar a bow with Endless Hail to proc Crusher.

I see. Just to check I understand it correctly, the DoT has to come from a weapon ability to proc the enchant yes? So guild skills don't count?

If you want enchants to proc WHILE YOU ARE ON THE OTHER BAR then you need an AoE weapon skill.

Urzigurumash

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

don't know if the bleed from brawler procs enchants, I dont think it do only the first hit.

It does not, but the new AoE DoT from Stampede should.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

If you want enchants to proc WHILE YOU ARE ON THE OTHER BAR then you need an AoE weapon skill.

Only ground-based AoE DoT weapon skills. AoE DoTs that are "attached" to the target and not the ground will not repetitively apply the enchant. As far as I know.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Urzigurumash wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

don't know if the bleed from brawler procs enchants, I dont think it do only the first hit.

It does not, but the new AoE DoT from Stampede should.

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

If you want enchants to proc WHILE YOU ARE ON THE OTHER BAR then you need an AoE weapon skill.

Only ground-based AoE DoT weapon skills. AoE DoTs that are "attached" to the target and not the ground will not repetitively apply the enchant. As far as I know.

deadly cloak will proc the enchants.

Urzigurumash

The best reason to run 2h as a tank in my poorly informed opinion is to use Executioner in the Execute phase, even better if the tank is wearing Powerful Assault and/or Alkosh since these sets boost a tank's weapon damage, even better if the tank is using the Asylum maul.

With the change to Stampede presumably allowing Crusher uptime almost as easily as Hail or Blockade, the main consideration there is then whether the increased Minor Vulnerability plus overall damage from Blockade with Lightning Staff, or the overall damage of Endless Hail with Bow, increases group DPS more than a tank using Executioner in Execute phase, further considering that this 2h setup would require 2 skill slots, rather than just 1 for Blockade or Hail.

All that being said I have been booted numerous times at the very start of a random dungeon, presumably because I spawned in on my 2h bar.

Urzigurumash

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

deadly cloak will proc the enchants.

True, what's that, "attached" to the caster right? I didn't consider this skill because duel wield can't apply a full enchant value.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

deadly cloak will proc the enchants.

True, what's that, "attached" to the caster right? I didn't consider this skill because duel wield can't apply a full enchant value.

yes attached. yes half value. but keep in mind that it will proc poisons too.

Urzigurumash

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

yes attached. yes half value. but keep in mind that it will proc poisons too.

It is probably true that if a Healer is maintaining Crusher on the boss, and somebody besides the tank iis providing Concussed, overall a Duel Wield with Poisons tank will help kill the boss the most quickly, since Duel Wield outperforms 2h generally. However as frequently as I've been booted for pulling out a 2h, I can't imagine the scorn you'll get for tanking with Duel Wield

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

yes attached. yes half value. but keep in mind that it will proc poisons too.

It is probably true that if a Healer is maintaining Crusher on the boss, and somebody besides the tank iis providing Concussed, overall a Duel Wield with Poisons tank will help kill the boss the most quickly, since Duel Wield outperforms 2h generally. However as frequently as I've been booted for pulling out a 2h, I can't imagine the scorn you'll get for tanking with Duel Wield

here is a great video by @T3hasiangod that explains the value of a back bar DW.

https://youtu.be/DzSm-HpRVEE?t=427

Urzigurumash

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

here is a great video by @T3hasiangod that explains the value of a back bar DW.

https://youtu.be/DzSm-HpRVEE?t=427

Interesting thought. I wonder, on a low Weapon Damage build against a large health boss, how Deadly Cloak plus Whirling Blades in Execute compares to Stampede plus Executioner in Execute. It may be that for this style of tanking, Duel Wield is optimal for learning mechanics, and 2h optimal for speed runs.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

here is a great video by @T3hasiangod that explains the value of a back bar DW.

https://youtu.be/DzSm-HpRVEE?t=427

Interesting thought. I wonder, on a low Weapon Damage build against a large health boss, how Deadly Cloak plus Whirling Blades in Execute compares to Stampede plus Executioner in Execute. It may be that for this style of tanking, Duel Wield is optimal for learning mechanics, and 2h optimal for speed runs.

i dont know if you actually watched that video but he is using quick cloak, for the speed boost and the BRP DW for the 4 seconds of major protection. tanks doing damage is not really a thing. if anything, tanks ought to be healing while tanking, that is far, far more valuable, as you can take 3 dps into 4 man stuff and that extra dps will be doing way, way more damage then you can ever add as a viable tank.

Royaji

Urzigurumash wrote: »

The best reason to run 2h as a tank in my poorly informed opinion is to use Executioner in the Execute phase, even better if the tank is wearing Powerful Assault and/or Alkosh since these sets boost a tank's weapon damage, even better if the tank is using the Asylum maul.

With the change to Stampede presumably allowing Crusher uptime almost as easily as Hail or Blockade, the main consideration there is then whether the increased Minor Vulnerability plus overall damage from Blockade with Lightning Staff, or the overall damage of Endless Hail with Bow, increases group DPS more than a tank using Executioner in Execute phase, further considering that this 2h setup would require 2 skill slots, rather than just 1 for Blockade or Hail.

All that being said I have been booted numerous times at the very start of a random dungeon, presumably because I spawned in on my 2h bar.

This is probably the worst reason to run 2h. Your offensive stats are pretty much zero. Minimal crit chance, low stamina, under 1500 weapon damage, no penetration. Your average tanks is just not going to deal any kind of noticeable damage to justify executioner.

If you are really good (or doing easy content) you can of course run a very squishy tank which is more like a DD with s&b frontbar. Except even in that case 2h is not comparable to bow and the DPS that Endless Hail and Poison Injection bring to the table.

Urzigurumash

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

tanks doing damage is not really a thing. if anything, tanks ought to be healing while tanking, that is far, far more valuable, as you can take 3 dps into 4 man stuff and that extra dps will be doing way, way more damage then you can ever add as a viable tank.

All true, but depending on things you may be able to push damage even further past this by increasing the amount of damage done by the healtank, Also it's still possible to healtank with Alkosh or Powerful Assault and 2h / bow / duel wield / staff, assuming no issue keeping up necessary buffs/debuffs.

Royaji wrote: »

This is probably the worst reason to run 2h. Your offensive stats are pretty much zero. Minimal crit chance, low stamina, under 1500 weapon damage, no penetration. Your average tanks is just not going to deal any kind of noticeable damage to justify executioner.

If you are really good (or doing easy content) you can of course run a very squishy tank which is more like a DD with s&b frontbar. Except even in that case 2h is not comparable to bow and the DPS that Endless Hail and Poison Injection bring to the table.

This is what I'm pondering, does Alkosh + Powerful Assault + VMA Bow universally outperform Alkosh + Powerful Assault + Asylum 2h? You will be higher than 1500 weapon damage in these sets.

Royaji

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Royaji wrote: »

This is probably the worst reason to run 2h. Your offensive stats are pretty much zero. Minimal crit chance, low stamina, under 1500 weapon damage, no penetration. Your average tanks is just not going to deal any kind of noticeable damage to justify executioner.

If you are really good (or doing easy content) you can of course run a very squishy tank which is more like a DD with s&b frontbar. Except even in that case 2h is not comparable to bow and the DPS that Endless Hail and Poison Injection bring to the table.

This is what I'm pondering, does Alkosh + Powerful Assault + VMA Bow universally outperform Alkosh + Powerful Assault + Asylum 2h? You will be higher than 1500 weapon damage in these sets.

Yes, it does.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

@Urzigurumash a healtank would be wearing torags pact and olo before powerful assault and alkosh, both those sets are better for healing and still provide good tanking ablity, at least for a self sufficient tank.

Urzigurumash

Royaji wrote: »

Yes, it does.

Ok thanks, I wasn't sure if the instantaneous nature of Executioner made it stronger than Poison Injection within the limited scope of a tank using it in Execute phase. If that's the case outside of the Ultimate generation of Asylum 2h, possibly superior trash clearing with Master's 2h, the snare removal of Forward Momentum, and the (erstwhile) ability for a DK to (try to) use Onslaught for unrivaled sustain, there's probably no good reason to use 2h in tanking, is there?

@Lightspeedflashb14_ESO Not quite what I'd wear for a healtank, but regardless you understand my point, that there is room to theorize about how to boost damage beyond the 3 DD, 1 Healtank scheme. I'm not sure at what point this is a genuinely viable idea beyond easier speed run achievements, perhaps with some groups pushing high scores in VDSA, but I thought maybe 2h Tanking had a possible role in this matter. If there's no debate that Bow outperforms 2h damage wise on a tank, probably it is not a good idea, and the people booting me just for pulling out a 2h are of sound judgment.

Bowser

2h could be viable if Momentum did aoe damage or minor stamina steal.